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the_eastern_jester
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i sorry but why must we keep the shape of the medicals stuff

i think a floating syringe would be great

its what the alpha version contains

i mean freedoom is not limit to the original shapse of items because this is not exact recreation only a free resourse replacement

we dont have to imitate id

Old Post 05-24-11 01:04 #
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skib
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the_eastern_jester said:
i sorry but why must we keep the shape of the medicals stuff

i think a floating syringe would be great

its what the alpha version contains

i mean freedoom is not limit to the original shapse of items because this is not exact recreation only a free resourse replacement

we dont have to imitate id



Good point!

Old Post 05-24-11 08:41 #
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Cyanosis
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All I've gotta say is, christ, what the hell happened *these days? (*inside joke)

There's crosses on stimpacks/medikits in a fairly large number of oldschool FPS games (or at least the more famous ones) but I know it was a common symbol back then to identify "healing" and "medical" etc. And now suddenly today it is actually so much a problem because of the freakin' Red Cross they changed the graphics for the health pickups in the XBOX port? Is this where gaming legalities has headed? And I thought the new YouTube was bad when it came to copyright infringements.

I just find it hilarious, baffling, and utterly retarded that they would be up in arms NOW, over something they clearly can't do anything about now since said old games have already been out.

Old Post 05-24-11 18:02 #
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chungy
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It's about enforcing their trademark. The way the legal system works, if they didn't, they would lose the trademark.

Old Post 05-24-11 19:09 #
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esselfortium
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What about a white cross on a circular red backdrop, for the symbol in the middle of the medikit? It'd be the same idea just with the colors inverted, and the white cross wouldn't infringe on the trademark.

Old Post 05-24-11 19:13 #
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hex11
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Cytadela also has Doom stimpack-looking things:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/cytadela/

Old Post 05-25-11 03:50 #
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fraggle
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Cyanosis said:
There's crosses on stimpacks/medikits in a fairly large number of oldschool FPS games (or at least the more famous ones) but I know it was a common symbol back then to identify "healing" and "medical" etc. And now suddenly today it is actually so much a problem because of the freakin' Red Cross they changed the graphics for the health pickups in the XBOX port? Is this where gaming legalities has headed? And I thought the new YouTube was bad when it came to copyright infringements.
It was never legal - it's not even a matter of trademarks (as chungy seems to think). The red cross is a protected emblem under the Geneva Convention. It's not because of the Red Cross organisation that it should be changed - it's because it's in breach of international law. You can read some information here about the legislation that protects it in different countries.


I just find it hilarious, baffling, and utterly retarded that they would be up in arms NOW, over something they clearly can't do anything about now since said old games have already been out.
Not at all - it makes perfect sense that as games have become more popular and more prominent, the issue has been given more attention. Obviously old games can't be changed, but that doesn't mean that we can't do the right thing when making new games - like Freedoom. Plus, as you've already mentioned, it was changed for the Xbox version.

Old Post 05-25-11 10:39 #
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myk
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Cyanosis said:
I just find it hilarious, baffling, and utterly retarded that they would be up in arms NOW, over something they clearly can't do anything about now since said old games have already been out.
From what I read, Jhonson & Jhonson, which also had been using the symbol independently of the Red Cross organization for a long time, challenged the Red Cross for it in court. Eventually, they settled out of court. Apparently, one of the conditions of the settlement was that the Red Cross (a huge international non-profit organization) would use its legal muscle to challenge any others using the symbol. That is, until then, the Red Cross probably didn't care too much about the use of the symbol in some commercial situations that didn't affect it directly, such as games or whatever, but J&J managed to use the organization to do legal work benefiting a more absolute imposition of its trademark (outside of the Red Cross itself).

Old Post 05-25-11 18:06 #
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printz
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esselfortium said:
What about a white cross on a circular red backdrop, for the symbol in the middle of the medikit? It'd be the same idea just with the colors inverted, and the white cross wouldn't infringe on the trademark.
Swiss chocolate.


myk said:
From what I read, Jhonson & Jhonson,

You just got the trademark name wrong.

Old Post 05-25-11 18:43 #
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mr fiat
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why not just adopt the pill thingys from the xbox360 version? you know like edit the freedoom medikits to have the pills instead of the red crosses.

Old Post 05-25-11 20:32 #
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printz
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Googling "first aid kit" images shows several cases with red crosses on them (!) and others with differently coloured crosses (often the Swiss flag). No 'H' or anything else. Searching "medkit" is rather blatant and shows red crosses, as if those packs were being carried by Red Cross medics.

Old Post 05-25-11 21:35 #
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hex11
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How about cans of spinach instead of berzerker pack? Hey, it worked for Popeye...

Old Post 05-25-11 21:37 #
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Sodaholic
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Just curious, what do you guys think about my new berserk pack?

(credit for making the original goes to axdoom1)

Old Post 05-25-11 21:39 #
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wesleyjohnson
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A game, like the hedgehog game, would use symbols and floating syringes.

I view Doom as a simulation, where things are rendered as realistic as possible (given our limitations).
They need to look like an actual object, not be symbolic.
They should honor the space/marine theme.
The original Doom sprites were confusing and are not good examples, and Heretic did not improve that.
The current boxes are rather good, and only a small tweak to the symbols would be required.
Repeating myself, the emblem is not that important.

Medkit:
Recognition and realism require that it be a WHITE BOX, with some kind of red writing or symbol on it.
I suggest:
1. The letters "MED" on it.
2. Three red squares (the writing inside being too small to see)
3. Three red stripes (the writing inside being too small to see)
4. A red dot, a vertical red stripe, and a red dot. From a distance
it looks a bit like a red cross.
5. A red cross made of red squares (not touching)
6. A red cross made in outline, like there was a white cross inside of it.
7. A red cross made out of red lines. Looks like a red cross from a distance.
8. A red cross with a white square as the center.


Stimpack:
Because stims (whatever they are) are not normal medical supplies, this would likely be very special marine equipment. A marine green container would be appropriate, but that is so hard to see and it would require docs with a picture to explain what it was. For that reason it ends up being a smaller WHITE (or white-ish) BOX, with some kind of smaller red (or red-ish) symbol on it. Military typically have color codes with the instructions in gray on a green background (the writing is camo too)
I suggest:
1. A double stripe of some "stimpack" suggestive color (like pink or violet, or puce).
2. A violet dot.
3. The box would have rounded corners, like many military containers (so they do not snag in the backpack).
4. Make it look like a three-cigar cigar-box (would look like it has three stim-injectors in it.
5. Make it look like the self-injector that was issued to B-52 crews.
I think it looked like a cigar tube. We could have a cigar tube with violet stripes on it.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 05-27-11 at 03:10

Old Post 05-25-11 22:46 #
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wesleyjohnson
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Could just stick a small white dot on each appearance of a red cross and that would defeat the copyright problem and not change the appearance and recognition much.

Old Post 05-27-11 03:13 #
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PRIMEVAL
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Instead of a red cross, how about a red square? The graphic is small and the red n white design should be enough to hint that it will heal you. Berserk could be black or dark gray with a red square. A red pixelated circle could work too.

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Old Post 05-27-11 07:40 #
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myk
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This is the international first aid symbol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Sign_first_aid.svg/120px-Sign_first_aid.svg.png

In a sprite it would be a green square with a white cross in it, as small as 5x5 pixels. Perhaps a simple green cross could work too. The hospital tower I can see from my place displays large green crosses on its sides so that people can identify the building from far away.


printz said:
You just got the trademark name wrong.
Shit... considering their previous actions, I better hide somewhere before their lawyers find me!

Old Post 05-27-11 09:16 #
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fraggle
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This thread is the worst example of bikeshedding I've seen in quite a while.

Old Post 05-27-11 09:55 #
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Scuba Steve


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Holy shit, just use the fucking Health Pack with the H and B on them from Sodoholic. Done.

Old Post 05-27-11 14:12 #
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hex11
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Actually, it's cool that there are all these possibilities. Maybe what's needed is some kind of "Freedoom a la carte" where you can build a custom IWAD with the bits and pieces of your choice. It's something I had considered a while ago, when the vanilla map discussion was going on.

Old Post 05-27-11 14:57 #
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Fredrik


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I rather like the green cross. Something like this?

http://i.imgur.com/mBwNS.png

Old Post 05-27-11 18:31 #
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Sodaholic
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fraggle said:
This thread is the worst example of bikeshedding I've seen in quite a while.

Agreed. My graphics have already made it into Freedoom, so why are people still debating this?

Old Post 05-27-11 19:37 #
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esselfortium
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Fredrik said:
I rather like the green cross. Something like this?

http://i.imgur.com/mBwNS.png


That looks great! I like the glow it has :)

Old Post 05-27-11 19:58 #
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wesleyjohnson
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Judging by the number of counter proposals, I guess the 'B' and 'H' are not generating any great levels of satisfaction. Those are the ones that got "thrown together" as a test example ??

We got too many ideas, need to prune.
I could live with the white cross on green.

Old Post 05-27-11 20:38 #
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Catoptromancy
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Fredrik said:
I rather like the green cross. Something like this?

http://i.imgur.com/mBwNS.png



Awesome! Needs a matching stim.

Old Post 05-28-11 08:56 #
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BondEar
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hex11 said:
Actually, it's cool that there are all these possibilities. Maybe what's needed is some kind of "Freedoom a la carte" where you can build a custom IWAD with the bits and pieces of your choice. It's something I had considered a while ago, when the vanilla map discussion was going on.

Well technically you can do this. You just need DeuTex.

Old Post 05-28-11 09:49 #
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fraggle
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hex11 said:
Actually, it's cool that there are all these possibilities. Maybe what's needed is some kind of "Freedoom a la carte" where you can build a custom IWAD with the bits and pieces of your choice. It's something I had considered a while ago, when the vanilla map discussion was going on.
You're not the first to suggest that. Personally I don't see the appeal. The deutex source is available if you want to build your own WAD, or you can just edit it with the editing tool of your choice. Or make a PWAD that changes things to how you like. Having something like that available doesn't solve the problem that we have to decide what goes in the "canonical" WAD.


Fredrik said:
I rather like the green cross. Something like this?

http://i.imgur.com/mBwNS.png

Ok, yes, this is awesome.

Old Post 05-28-11 11:03 #
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Fredrik


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Catoptromancy said:

Awesome! Needs a matching stim.


http://i.imgur.com/xlE5L.png

Old Post 05-28-11 11:58 #
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Mithran Denizen
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I was initially convinced that the health items should stick to the red/white theme, but yeah, those green ones are the best variants to come out of this thread, in my opinion.

Old Post 05-29-11 00:14 #
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fraggle
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Fredrik said:

http://i.imgur.com/xlE5L.png

And a berserk pack.

Old Post 05-29-11 03:11 #
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