Mancubus
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Special Interest > Freedoom > Palette change
Pages (2): [1] 2 »  
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 07:23. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
jute
My avatar grips his belt rather tightly.


Posts: 1399
Registered: 03-03


I think that FreeDoom would benefit greatly from a new/modified palette. It is a simple change that would dramatically alter the feel of the game, helping to differentiate it from Doom. Has this been discussed or attempted before?

Old Post 08-28-11 14:47 #
jute is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Jon
Freedoom Bloke


Posts: 1351
Registered: 09-00


One of the goals of Freedoom is/was to support playing PWADs. PWADs might have their own additional graphics which would be mangled in unpredictable ways by a radically different palette.

If freedoom ever split into the "base" compatibility IWAD and a freedoom "game" PWAD, it could be done in the latter.

Old Post 08-29-11 18:37 #
Jon is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2901
Registered: 04-07


As mentioned above, it's not a good idea to change the palette for PWAD compatibility reasons. I personally don't want to see a palette change.

Old Post 08-29-11 19:51 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


Posts: 6625
Registered: 01-02


All the resources themselves are already changed. A new palette that alters the hues of the existing color ranges won't "mangle" PWAD compatibility any more than having all the IWAD textures and sprites be replaced.

See PalPlus for an example of a significantly altered Doom palette that maintains PWAD compatibility.

Old Post 08-29-11 20:43 #
esselfortium is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Mithran Denizen
Senior Member


Posts: 1093
Registered: 05-10


Yeah, I think a new palette with the same basic color ranges as Doom's could potentially do wonders to set Freedoom apart from Doom. It might also help to make Freedoom a little more interesting in its own right.

I would've proposed this myself by now, were I not too lazy to actually design said new palette and its colormap on my own.

*digs up the palette dump tool from doomcrap-0.1.zip again*

Old Post 08-29-11 22:35 #
Mithran Denizen is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
RjY
anARCHy


Posts: 969
Registered: 05-02


Well all you really need to do is make the first palette¹. All the others, and COLORMAP, are calculated from it by scripts.

That said, must you change it? The modern fashion to tweak the palette of your megawad is annoying and I wish it would go away.


¹ i.e. the first 768 bytes of Freedoom's PLAYPAL lump, which by a truly astonishing coincidence are exactly the same as the first 768 bytes from Doom's PLAYPAL lump.

Old Post 08-29-11 23:11 #
RjY is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


Posts: 6625
Registered: 01-02



RjY said:
Well all you really need to do is make the first palette¹. All the others, and COLORMAP, are calculated from it by scripts.

That said, must you change it? The modern fashion to tweak the palette of your megawad is annoying and I wish it would go away.


¹ i.e. the first 768 bytes of Freedoom's PLAYPAL lump, which by a truly astonishing coincidence are exactly the same as the first 768 bytes from Doom's PLAYPAL lump.


Why not? All the graphics themselves are different already; it's not like this would be the first thing to differentiate FreeDoom's appearance from that of the original game.

Old Post 08-29-11 23:40 #
esselfortium is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Jon
Freedoom Bloke


Posts: 1351
Registered: 09-00



esselfortium said:
All the resources themselves are already changed. A new palette that alters the hues of the existing color ranges won't "mangle" PWAD compatibility any more than having all the IWAD textures and sprites be replaced.


If a PWAD provides some graphics, such as its own textures, then changing the palette in Freedoom will mean the texture in the PWAD will render differently in freedoom than in vanilla doom.

For example, if you swapped the red range in the freedoom palette for purple, a PWAD which had a texture with a red square in it would have a purple square when played with freedoom. That's no good.

Old Post 08-30-11 21:17 #
Jon is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Mithran Denizen
Senior Member


Posts: 1093
Registered: 05-10


Hence why a 'compatible' palette would use the same basic color ranges, but with different RGB values for each index, each of which would still roughly match the corresponding color in Doom's palette.

Besides, if a PWAD provides graphics, they're usually based on existing Doom graphics, and so will probably look out of place in Freedoom anyway.

Old Post 08-30-11 21:28 #
Mithran Denizen is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 11267
Registered: 07-07



Mithran Denizen said:
Besides, if a PWAD provides graphics, they're usually based on existing Doom graphics, and so will be explicitly disallowed by the license anyway.

Old Post 08-30-11 22:16 #
Gez is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
fraggle
Filled with the code of Doom


Posts: 7746
Registered: 07-00


Stay tuned for Pointless Freedoom Legal Discussion, episode #391, just about to start.

Old Post 08-30-11 23:26 #
fraggle is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
hex11
Senior Member


Posts: 2237
Registered: 09-09


If Freedoom is "illegal" for allowing you to play those PWADs, then so is every modern source port.

Old Post 08-31-11 01:02 #
hex11 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


Posts: 6625
Registered: 01-02



hex11 said:
If Freedoom is "illegal" for allowing you to play those PWADs, then so is every modern source port.

Not unless the source ports are providing functional replacement IWAD resources to make these PWADs with IWAD-based custom graphics playable without ownership of the IWAD.

Old Post 08-31-11 01:14 #
esselfortium is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Quasar
Moderator


Posts: 6092
Registered: 08-00



esselfortium said:

Not unless the source ports are providing functional replacement IWAD resources to make these PWADs with IWAD-based custom graphics playable without ownership of the IWAD.


And even if it's the case anyway (and I don't believe it is), it wouldn't be illegal. It would just be a violation of DOOM's EULA at the most. And that's a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Old Post 08-31-11 04:24 #
Quasar is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
jute
My avatar grips his belt rather tightly.


Posts: 1399
Registered: 03-03



Mithran Denizen said:
Hence why a 'compatible' palette would use the same basic color ranges, but with different RGB values for each index, each of which would still roughly match the corresponding color in Doom's palette.


This is, of course, what I'm suggesting, Some wads do this already: changing the blue range is especially popular. Even subtle changes can have a profound, individual effect without "breaking compatibility" with any art.

Old Post 08-31-11 05:08 #
jute is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
hex11
Senior Member


Posts: 2237
Registered: 09-09



esselfortium said:

Not unless the source ports are providing functional replacement IWAD resources to make these PWADs with IWAD-based custom graphics playable without ownership of the IWAD.



There are scenarios where this isn't necessary. Someone may have only one IWAD and yet still play a PWAD that contains resources (modified or not) from another IWAD. You see this all the time with Doom PWADs that have Heretic or Hexen textures, music, etc. But guess what, the source port doesn't check to see if the PWAD contains id resources (very difficult to detect modified resources anyway, a simple checksum doesn't cut it). And without code, you can't run checks. Freedoom is not code, so playing baby-sitter is impossible.

If you go through with this palette change, at least make sure it looks okay with classic PWADs like Icarus, The Darkening, Memento Mori, etc. (basically everyone listed in the top-100). Because otherwise you're effectively crippling one of the key uses of Freedoom.

Old Post 08-31-11 07:08 #
hex11 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
wesleyjohnson
Senior Member


Posts: 1038
Registered: 04-09


I agree with hex11.

Many subtle color choices in level designs were made relying upon the doom palette. It is very easy to change a nice two tone color effect into garish, or no visible effect at all.
Tools (like xwadstools) out there support it inherently, and will provide a copy of it.

The only palette change that will work is one that is functionally identical (but with subtle differences) to the point that it is indistinguishable except to those who want to argue that about it.

Old Post 08-31-11 20:15 #
wesleyjohnson is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


Posts: 6625
Registered: 01-02



wesleyjohnson said:
I agree with hex11.

Many subtle color choices in level designs were made relying upon the doom palette. It is very easy to change a nice two tone color effect into garish, or no visible effect at all.
Tools (like xwadstools) out there support it inherently, and will provide a copy of it.

The only palette change that will work is one that is functionally identical (but with subtle differences) to the point that it is indistinguishable except to those who want to argue that about it.


Yeah, and those levels were also made relying on Doom's textures. FreeDoom isn't using those, either.

Old Post 08-31-11 20:27 #
esselfortium is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
wesleyjohnson
Senior Member


Posts: 1038
Registered: 04-09


I was thinking of my levels and the how much trouble I had finding a flat texture with color close to the wall texture I was using, just so I could put a good color on a door sill, the bottom edge of a door, or the underside of a door frame. A palette change is going to mess all of those up. Every place I was trying to match colors, or find a color that would approximate some effect or represent something.

I could change my levels, but the good visual PWAD did the same thing, and a palette change will change the intended appearance even more, and we cannot retroactively change them.

What happens to a PWAD that has its own special textures, based on the DOOM palette.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 08-31-11 at 20:38

Old Post 08-31-11 20:33 #
wesleyjohnson is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
myk
volveré y seré millones


Posts: 15226
Registered: 04-02



hex11 said:
If Freedoom is "illegal" for allowing you to play those PWADs, then so is every modern source port.
You mean anything, because you can break the law with practically any item or thing produced.

Freedoom is in danger of infringing copyrights if it can be argued that the palette is a creative aspect or piece of DOOM. PLAYPAL is not very different from GENMIDI, which was removed for possible copyright concerns.

Old Post 08-31-11 20:52 #
myk is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
jute
My avatar grips his belt rather tightly.


Posts: 1399
Registered: 03-03



wesleyjohnson said:
What happens to a PWAD that has its own special textures, based on the DOOM palette.


Here is an example of what happens when a new palette is applied to textures based on the Doom palette: http://www.doomworld.com/php/screen...=pal_plus04.png It's not the disaster you suggest, and that example shows a sweeping palette change. Many wads change only the blue range and the effect is still distinctive.

Old Post 08-31-11 21:01 #
jute is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
RjY
anARCHy


Posts: 969
Registered: 05-02



jute said:
This is, of course, what I'm suggesting, Some wads do this already: changing the blue range is especially popular. Even subtle changes can have a profound, individual effect without "breaking compatibility" with any art.
Your profound, individual effect is my cue to curse the fashions of modern mapping, open the wad, and delete the PLAYPAL lump.

Also, gifs don't store indexes into the PLAYPAL lump, they have their own palette. Consider what will happen if the PLAYPAL lump does not match the palette of all the gifs in Freedoom's source tree when Deutex tries to build the wad.

Old Post 09-01-11 22:17 #
RjY is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Phml
Forum Staple


Posts: 3393
Registered: 06-09



Here is an example of what happens when a new palette is applied to textures based on the Doom palette: http://www.doomworld.com/php/screen...=pal_plus04.png It's not the disaster you suggest, and that example shows a sweeping palette change. Many wads change only the blue range and the effect is still distinctive.


It looks terrible to me. Colors are dull and washed out, this looks nothing like the original game. If this screenshot would have been posted in this topic without any text, I would have assumed it was to defend the idea that a mere palette change can completely butcher the art.


Yeah, and those levels were also made relying on Doom's textures. FreeDoom isn't using those, either.


The gist of your argumentation seems to be about pointing out other flaws. That doesn't make much sense to me, two wrongs don't make a right ; surely, just because Freedoom is inaccurate in some points doesn't mean it should strive to be purposefully inaccurate, nor that it should try to be even more inaccurate than it already is.

Last edited by Phml on 09-01-11 at 22:48

Old Post 09-01-11 22:36 #
Phml is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


Posts: 6625
Registered: 01-02



Phml said:


The gist of your argumentation seems to be about pointing out other flaws. That doesn't make much sense to me, two wrongs don't make a right ; surely, just because Freedoom is inaccurate in some points doesn't mean it should strive to be purposefully inaccurate, nor that it should try to be even more inaccurate than it already is.


Not flaws, differences. The counterargument seems to be based on the misconception that without changing the palette, FreeDoom looks exactly like Doom.

Old Post 09-01-11 23:03 #
esselfortium is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
jute
My avatar grips his belt rather tightly.


Posts: 1399
Registered: 03-03


FreeDoom's purpose is to use original (differing from Doom) content while maintaining pwad compatibility. A new palette can easily help differentiate the game from Doom without compromising compatibility.

RjY: Your complaints confuse me. FreeDoom is not a megawad for Doom, using Doom resources but changing the palette. It is a separate game with its own resources and style. The similarities between Doom and FreeDoom, by design, lie in their gameplay, not their appearances.

Phml: That particular palette is not my favorite either, only an example of a palette that changes the game's feel without breaking compatibility. You complain that the result "looks nothing like the original game (ie Doom)", but FreeDoom's goal is not to imitate Doom's aesthetics so slavishly that the palette must be identical. The idea that FreeDoom's visual differences are "flaws" or "inaccuracies" betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the project.

Old Post 09-01-11 23:24 #
jute is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Jon
Freedoom Bloke


Posts: 1351
Registered: 09-00



jute said:
FreeDoom's purpose is to use original (differing from Doom) content while maintaining pwad compatibility. A new palette can easily help differentiate the game from Doom without compromising compatibility.


This is what I — respectfully — disagree with. I don't think it's possible to vary the PLAYPAL or COLORMAP significantly and guarantee to preserve compatibility at the same time.

Old Post 09-02-11 08:03 #
Jon is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
fraggle
Filled with the code of Doom


Posts: 7746
Registered: 07-00



myk said:
Freedoom is in danger of infringing copyrights if it can be argued that the palette is a creative aspect or piece of DOOM.
De minimis non curat lex

Old Post 09-02-11 09:00 #
fraggle is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
jute
My avatar grips his belt rather tightly.


Posts: 1399
Registered: 03-03



Jon said:


This is what I — respectfully — disagree with. I don't think it's possible to vary the PLAYPAL or COLORMAP significantly and guarantee to preserve compatibility at the same time.



I suppose the question is what constitutes a significant change. I spent some time running through FreeDoom using the UDM3 palette ( http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=13058 ), which modifies the blue and green ranges but otherwise leaves the palette unchanged (as far as I can tell). Compatibility remained intact, but the new hues lent the game a different feel. Perhaps you could try noclipping around a favorite megawad in FreeDoom with that palette and see what you think?

Old Post 09-02-11 14:50 #
jute is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
myk
volveré y seré millones


Posts: 15226
Registered: 04-02



Jon said:
This is what I — respectfully — disagree with. I don't think it's possible to vary the PLAYPAL or COLORMAP significantly and guarantee to preserve compatibility at the same time.
You could say that more so about all of Freedoom's new graphics which often don't look great alongside stuff made for DOOM in a PWAD. The palette difference would be consistent along all the resources, new in Freedoom and old in the PWAD, so its incompatibility would be lesser than that of the new graphics that can clash stylistically. That is, someone downloading Freedoom and trying a mod with it will more likely notice the differences between the graphics from one and the other than any effect from the palette, which will only be more evident to someone trying the same mod with DOOM.

I see two artists (jute, essel) giving arguments in favor of trying a new palette, and two coders (jon, fraggle) which helped initiate the project years ago without much concern about artistic quality, as if it would come up anyway. That quality may indeed be arriving, but with proposals by artists that may ask for changes to allow it best.

Old Post 09-02-11 16:57 #
myk is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
jute
My avatar grips his belt rather tightly.


Posts: 1399
Registered: 03-03


Here are some screenshots of FreeDoom with the UDM3 palette being used to play Memento Mori and Hell Revealed. I don't think it could be reasonably argued that the palette changes break compatibility, but they clearly change the game's "feel", just as (for instance) replacing the demon with a worm or replacing the chainsaw with a futuristic saw changes the game's feel without breaking compatibility. In fact, these latter changes are far more radical than changing a blue color to a slightly different blue color. But all these instances further FreeDoom's goal to be a complete new game based on the Doom engine that retains PWAD compatibility.
http://www.jeshimoth.com/fd1.png
http://www.jeshimoth.com/fd2.png
http://www.jeshimoth.com/fd3.png
http://www.jeshimoth.com/fd4.png

Last edited by jute on 09-02-11 at 18:39

Old Post 09-02-11 18:31 #
jute is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 07:23. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (2): [1] 2 »  
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Special Interest > Freedoom > Palette change

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.