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Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


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I take issue with the fact that the dehacked patch is implemented directly inside the IWAD. This basically makes it non-optional, which I'm strongly against. (sure, you can just remove it, but still) The part that bothers me the most is that if you load an unintegrated, seperate .DEH or .BEX file, certain sourceports favor the integrated IWAD dehacked file instead, and will use the Freedoom strings instead of the mod's strings. Souceports that do this include ZDoom, GZDoom, and ZDaemon, and there are probably more. Odamex favors the mod's DeHacked file instead.

I'd much rather have Freedoom work correctly with already existing ports and versions of ports, than to try to get port developers to fix this behavior.

Besides that, I strongly believe that the .DEH patch should be optional, it should not be default.

Old Post 03-15-12 23:12 #
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GreyGhost
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


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Sodaholic said:
I'd much rather have Freedoom work correctly with already existing ports and versions of ports, than to try to get port developers to fix this behavior.
If "working correctly" includes suppressing trademarked text strings before Zenimax's lawyers make an issue of them, I don't see how that can be done without a patch or custom source port.

Old Post 03-16-12 02:21 #
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Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


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Strings are completely engine-side, and therefore no concern to Freedoom's legality, since it's only an IWAD that it's contents normally make no reference to the original strings. As a stand alone file, it's completely in the clear. Even if Zenimax wanted to make a big deal over it (which I really, really doubt they give a shit about this particular issue at all), they wouldn't have a very strong case at all.


All I'm saying is that embedding the DeHacked patch in the IWAD itself causes problems with mods that use DeHacked. I don't want the DeHacked patch to be tossed out, not at all, I just think it's a much better idea to include it with, and not in the IWAD.

Old Post 03-16-12 02:37 #
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Gez
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The funny thing is that the user license for Doom allowing to make mods allowed to do them as long as they required the original game.

Freedoom making sure that this is circumvented would be a bad idea.

Old Post 03-16-12 10:34 #
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fraggle
Filled with the code of Doom


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Sodaholic said:
All I'm saying is that embedding the DeHacked patch in the IWAD itself causes problems with mods that use DeHacked. I don't want the DeHacked patch to be tossed out, not at all, I just think it's a much better idea to include it with, and not in the IWAD.
Point is, if it was included "with" the IWAD, nobody would use it. Can you honestly say that you or anyone else would go to the bother of adding "-bex freedoom.bex" every single time you launch the game? Essentially it defeats the entire purpose of having the patch, which is that out of the box, the Freedoom messages are displayed, and not the Doom ones.

You're correct that it breaks some mods. That's actually down to bugs in source ports rather than Freedoom. For example, some source ports load dehacked patches in the wrong order, so that the IWAD DEHACKED lump is applied after patches specified on the command line, or in PWADs. Loading of patches needs to be carefully ordered in order to make sense: I described the required ordering back when we added the patch.

As a workaround, you could use a WAD editing tool to remove the lump from your copy of the IWAD. I know that's a pretty shitty workaround but it's a solution at least. Other than that, file a bug / complain to the authors of your preferred source port, to try to get them to fix their dehacked behavior.


Strings are completely engine-side, and therefore no concern to Freedoom's legality, since it's only an IWAD that it's contents normally make no reference to the original strings.

I absolutely disagree in the strongest possible terms, and your assessment fails to recognise the reality of the situation.

You're correct in that if this went to a court case, and a judge was looking at the evidence, you could perhaps make that argument and it might hold. But the entire point is that that's never going to happen. Freedoom is a tiny online collaboration: it doesn't have lawyers, or the ability to even pay for them. Realistically, if it receives a legal threat, like a cease-and-desist, that's the end of the project. That's a real thing that has already happened for a bunch of id-related collaborative projects. Our aim should therefore be to do everything possible to ensure that we never even reach that point.

The lawyers representing ZeniMax etc. aren't interested in subtle technical details about source port code containing strings and not IWADs. If anything they're more concerned with iPhone apps being sold on the Apple app store that say eg. "You got the BFG 9000" when you pick up a weapon, because that's trademark infringement. If they decide to go on a cull of those apps and discover Freedoom is the ultimate source of all of them, that puts us in their sights.

I know it's not really fair and technically speaking, you're correct that it shouldn't be our responsibility to have to do this. The reality is that it's a potential threat to the project and we have no other plausible way to defend against it.

We can take some small consolation in the fact that the brokenness is at least only cosmetic - it just affects the messages shown on the screen, and it doesn't affect the playability of these mods. I know it sucks but I honestly believe that the benefits of having this patch in there outweigh the downsides.

Old Post 03-16-12 10:55 #
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printz
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fraggle said:
Freedoom is a tiny online collaboration: it doesn't have lawyers, or the ability to even pay for them. Realistically, if it receives a legal threat, like a cease-and-desist, that's the end of the project.
Pardon for sounding possibly naive, but: what if someone decides to spend their money to hire lawyers anyway and go in court, and ultimately win the case? Will someone win out of this?

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Old Post 03-16-12 12:55 #
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GreyGhost
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printz said:
Will someone win out of this?
Yes - the lawyers. They get paid regardless of the outcome.

Old Post 03-16-12 13:47 #
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Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


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fraggle said:
If anything they're more concerned with iPhone apps being sold on the Apple app store that say eg. "You got the BFG 9000" when you pick up a weapon, because that's trademark infringement.

...

We can take some small consolation in the fact that the brokenness is at least only cosmetic - it just affects the messages shown on the screen, and it doesn't affect the playability of these mods. I know it sucks but I honestly believe that the benefits of having this patch in there outweigh the downsides.


When you put it like that, I fully agree. I completely forgot to take people selling Freedoom commercially into account. My opinion about this has changed.

EDIT: Okay, hold on a moment, why is the Imp replacement called a "footsoldier"? The Imp doesn't have feet! :P How about Deathserpent or something?

Are you guys willing to update the DeHacked file? I can write some stuff up for the missing strings, such as text intermissions for episodes.


Lastly, should .DEH be used instead of .BEX? I understand that .DEH would require the original strings to be in there, but the shortened names in .BEX aren't much better, as they still clearly reference the original trademarked strings. The reason I suggest .DEH instead is for more compatibility with sourceports that only support regular .DEH, and not .BEX as well.

Doing this would allow many more ports to use the alternate strings, possibly building a better case for this. Besides that, the original strings wouldn't even be seen unless one opened up the WAD or .DEH file.

One other thing that could help is not only imbedding the DeHacked file in the IWAD, but also packaging it with the IWAD as well, for ports that cannot load DeHacked from inside a WAD, and only externally.

Last edited by Sodaholic on 03-16-12 at 20:04

Old Post 03-16-12 18:26 #
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GreyGhost
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Sodaholic said:
EDIT: Okay, hold on a moment, why is the Imp replacement called a "footsoldier"? The Imp doesn't have feet! :P How about Deathserpent or something?
Depends on whether you consider the Imp replacement to be slug or snake. Slugs have a single foot, so "footsoldier" wouldn't be inappropriate for them. ;)

Old Post 03-17-12 02:31 #
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Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


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GreyGhost said:
Depends on whether you consider the Imp replacement to be slug or snake. Slugs have a single foot, so "footsoldier" wouldn't be inappropriate for them. ;)

Ah, I see. I had no idea that slugs had a foot (never payed much attention to bugs), I just kinda thought that they slithered along.

Regardless, I can't imagine the Imp replacement being a slug, as quick movement and turning would be quite difficult with only one foot. I imagine a snake would be much more able to immediately turn 180 degrees like the Imp does in Freedoom.

Perhaps it's a hybrid creature. What would it be called? A slake? A snug?

Old Post 03-17-12 20:30 #
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wesleyjohnson
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Being called a footsoldier has nothing to do with having feet. It means he does not have a horse (horse soldier).

Old Post 03-19-12 20:21 #
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Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2761
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wesleyjohnson said:
Being called a footsoldier has nothing to do with having feet.

But the name "footsoldier" implies that one is on foot, as opposed to on a horse. I mean, I guess that it technically doesn't have anything to do with actually having feet, but regardless, it sounds weird, since the Imp has no apparent feet (sans the slug interpretation).

It's not really a big deal, I just thought it was a rather strange name.

Old Post 03-19-12 21:09 #
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Gez
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Give it a chaingun.
Make it the Heavy Weapon Dude replacement.
Call it the tailgunner.

Old Post 03-19-12 21:30 #
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GreyGhost
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Put em' on Segways and call it mechanized infantry.

Old Post 03-20-12 03:11 #
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printz
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GreyGhost said:
Yes - the lawyers. They get paid regardless of the outcome.
No damages paid to anyone?

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Old Post 03-20-12 08:44 #
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GreyGhost
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What damages? Zenimax's lawyers might claim damages for loss of sales but won't be awarded them if your hypothetical white knight wins the case. The only other issue I can think of is court costs, which are usually paid by the losing party.

Old Post 03-20-12 10:22 #
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