Reaper Grimm
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Special Interest > Freedoom > Is Freedoom too hard?
Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »  
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 11:57. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
hex11
Senior Member


Posts: 2237
Registered: 09-09


Okay so there's two parts to this.

He first got stuck on the "permissions have been obtained..." text that only applies to PWADs that actually have such resources. That's understandable as it is quite vague.

Then he questioned the validity of distributing modified original maps that had the permissive text attached to them. He believes that being allowed to use a maps as a base to create other maps doesn't include distribution rights of the modified version. And of course that part is implied and understood by everyone in this community, but maybe it's not technically enough from a legal perspective. Although you have to question: what's the point of granting rights to modify something but not distribute it? Everyone already has that right - it's outside the realm of copyright, which only concerns itself with publishing.

Too bad he didn't give any suggestions to fix the text. My thought is, just use this instead:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL
:-)

(Edit)
I was searching to find who actually created the original template (anyone know?) and why he used the language he did when it hit me: the template mentions "Authors MAY use these levels as a base to build additional levels" (or variations thereof, this one is from igor9.wad). They key word here is "authors". What do authors do? They publish, that's what they do. It makes no sense whatsoever outside of that context.

(Silly joke time)
I tried to run unfuck on all the /idgames TXT files, but it didn't do anything...

Last edited by hex11 on 10-30-12 at 08:44

Old Post 10-30-12 04:05 #
hex11 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
samiam
Mini-Member


Posts: 96
Registered: 04-05



Quasar said:
Really there are worse problems with a lot of the maps than the balance. Some of them are so ugly and offputting in design that I cannot bear to play them. I know its been hard to get people to map for the project but, I feel like I could generate a random playlist of D!ZONE wads and end up with something more enjoyable.


The underlying problem here is open source economics. Since no one is being paid to make these maps, there is nothing to motivate mappers to make quality maps for FreeDoom.

As a user and advocate of open source for nearly two decades, I have seen open source economics stall or kill countless open source projects, especially games. If there was a way we could pay people to develop open-source games while giving them away, like we have with Linux (the monetization strategy there is to sell services and support), we would not have the kinds of problems Freedoom has.

Perhaps we can start a kickstarter project to fund Freedoom development.

In the meantime, one workaround is to use a random map generator like Oblige to make maps for Freedoom.

Old Post 10-30-12 09:16 #
samiam is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
fraggle
Filled with the code of Doom


Posts: 7778
Registered: 07-00



samiam said:


The underlying problem here is open source economics. Since no one is being paid to make these maps, there is nothing to motivate mappers to make quality maps for FreeDoom.

Considering that there are plenty of other successful MegaWAD projects being put out fairly regularly, this seems irrelevant to me. Do you seriously think that paying people to make maps is going to make Freedoom a more attractive project? I'd personally be really saddened if the project went down that route - it would seem to me like a really desperate measure.

The problem as I see it is in the management and organization of the project. Look at how, for example, Doom The Way Id Did put together a complete, high quality three episode MegaWAD in only a year (according to the text file). I think we should be asking how we might also achieve something like that. There's obviously no shortage of mappers interested in contributing to such projects (look at the credits list). So why would they rather contribute to other projects rather than Freedoom? Perhaps we should be asking them.

Old Post 10-30-12 13:48 #
fraggle is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
purist
Senior Member


Posts: 2124
Registered: 04-04


For the record I'm pretty sure I'd have mapped for Freedoom if it was managed like a regular community project. I don't know if any other mappers feel the same way.

I think the D2TWID website is a good template.

Old Post 10-30-12 14:00 #
purist is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
samiam
Mini-Member


Posts: 96
Registered: 04-05



purist said:
For the record I'm pretty sure I'd have mapped for Freedoom if it was managed like a regular community project.


My frustration with FreeDoom is that this project has languished without any real progress ever since I started playing it nearly a decade ago. Bottom line: Mappers just aren't interested in making maps for this project "for fun and for free".

I think one big reason mappers aren't interested in this game is because a lot of sprites are missing, and many of the sprites that are there are unattractive "place holder" sprites. I also think the Open source copyright restrictions are not appealing to gamers--many amateur content developers just do not want to worry about the copyright consequences of "borrowing" someone else's work to finish up the project, nor do they want to allow commercial use of their work.

To wit, a good deal of music had to fairly recently be removed from Freedoom because it was discovered to be plagiarized. That "Doom the way ID did" project has been released under the "Authors may NOT use the contents of this file as a base for modification or
reuse" clause, which is definitely not open source.

Bottom line: Freedoom has been around for about decade, yet here we are in 2012 with a very incomplete project: Missing sprites, missing or poorly done levels, missing music, etc. I really wish there was some way of motivating people to finish up and put closure on the project, yet there is, just like there is with countless other open-source projects, no one willing to finish up the project and there is no way to motivate people to do so.

If anyone knows of a way to break this stalemate, I am all ears.

Old Post 10-30-12 19:10 #
samiam is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Dragonsbrethren
Senior Member


Posts: 2474
Registered: 03-09


I don't really understand why no one's either started a community project or requested permission from an existing one's authors to release their levels under the BSD license. There's no reason why anyone needs to map specifically for Freedoom since it's by design compatible with Doom 2's resources. I'm really surprised this isn't what was done in the first place. There are still tons of megawads being released for Doom, there's really no excuse for this project to be unfinished when it comes to maps.

Old Post 10-30-12 19:29 #
Dragonsbrethren is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
wesleyjohnson
Senior Member


Posts: 1056
Registered: 04-09


Map09 is mine, so where in Map09 did anyone have to use IDBEHOLD.
Some parts of the cave system are near black on purpose, natural caves have no lights, and it is meant to make it difficult for the player for find the secret passage. The only purpose of that whole cave area is to provide a few dark secret alternate passages (several so the player does not know how many or where they lead) mostly for deathmatch and coop.

I agree that having to jump into damaging ooze and fight through monsters just to get to a suit is too much, and cannot be lessened for lower difficulties.

The teleporting red key is interesting, once. But Dsv4 does that often, and it got really annoying when having reached the key, it just up and moves to some obscure spot you have already visited. Irritating when there is no logic to it, because it cannot be figured out. It does not contribute anything to the level story.

I do not like words or arrows done with sectors. We need some design rules. I prefer that levels use a realistic model as much as possible and leave out the blatant off-storyline stuff.

Map12 has nice areas, but that room with the round tubs has too many monster waves. It is tedious difficult, requiring too many saves and restarts.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 10-30-12 at 21:45

Old Post 10-30-12 21:38 #
wesleyjohnson is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
hex11
Senior Member


Posts: 2237
Registered: 09-09


Yeah, it's too bad DTWID didn't get released under a more open license. I guess they could still change it though, as it's very recent and all mappers should still be reachable. And yeah it's a vanilla mapset, but there's nothing wrong with having both Boom and vanilla versions of the IWADs. I don't even know why it was decided way back when to only go with Boom. And yeah FreeDM is vanilla but come on, that's strictly for DOOM II DM, and not everyone's interested in that.

Well if I ever finish my Undeath '94 project, it'll be released under completely open license (either BSD or WTFPL) so long as the other mappers agree. It's just one DOOM episode though, for now at least...

Old Post 10-30-12 22:58 #
hex11 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Amarande
Warming Up


Posts: 13
Registered: 01-06


As the guy who created map05 something like 11+ years ago, I'd like to address your concerns, Phml. I've had people suggest specific flaws before (some of which I've changed years ago), but I've never seen it described as "an ode to mapping mistakes before"!

* Yeah, I think the solid rock fake wall can be taken away and just leave it open; I think I tried too hard to hide the secret warp. Initially, there wasn't even a warp on that side; rather the left side was just an inescapable acid pit (and this was obvious, since all the walls were visible so you know you shouldn't go there).

* Hmmm ... I didn't think the stair bit after the blue key was all that bad, but ... *shrug*

* The merits of inescapable pits seem to be more a matter of taste than actual level design "good or bad" ultimately, it's seemed. Many of the best WADs have them, so does the original DOOM's. I'm not sure you can really universally say they're bad unless they're non-damaging (so you're just stuck forever), but this one will kill you for missing the jump, as was intended.

* The demon stuck in the corner ... hmmm ... yeah, my bad. I made sure to give it enough room in its alcove but apparently forgot about it getting out or not ... Maybe change it to an Imp for next release.

* The red key thing was inspired by another map I'd seen that used a similar mechanic (MM2 something ... 10 or 11 I think?). I figured it would be a given that you'd deduce the key was "flushed" so to speak and thus go back down the sewage tunnel to find it :)

Its near invisibility in the "pump" room? Resource fault, really. This map was created way back in 2001 (and actually may have been the third map I made for the project; I seem to remember I made 21 and 29 first). At that time, progress had barely begun at all on the sprites, so I and probably most people tested the maps using the original IWAD sprites. Unfortunately, the IWAD keycard sprites are a lot brighter than Freedoom's, so it wasn't hard to see the red key atop the pump when the map was created but the Freedoom sprite changes seem to have affected this. :(

* Hmmm. Haven't heard of the ammo situation being quite that dire on skill 4. :( I've done most of my personal testing on skill 2 or 3, where it seems to be OK; however, this map has been out for over a decade, and it's been a while since I've seen someone feel there's that little ammo.

* As for the "newbie design features":

1) map-linked monster teleports are simpler and more trouble-free to implement and maintain than the merged-sector ones (how many "modern" maps have issues where enemies simply never warp in? OTOH, I can't say I've ever recalled it being a problem with this old style, can't recall anyone who's had enemies fail to teleport in on E1M9 say ...). Sectors are cheap. It's not like this is a challenge WAD where we're trying to go out of our way to minimise the number of them. Meanwhile, I think you'd hear a lot more complaints from players if a map made 100% kills impossible without a good reason than for there being a little "mousehole" that often requires you to really look around to see ...

2) the DOOMroom: I've never really seen this significantly objected to in the past. As for its inclusion, it was inspired by a combination of homage to DOOM itself and by something id themselves did in one of the IWAD maps (the Nine Inch Nails logo secret on E4M1). Perhaps it's too much to have it showing on the automap at the get go, though ...

3) the pentagram: again, I thought more "classic DOOM map element" than "newbie design inclusion" (given how common the element is even in maps by many of the most respected designers of the late 90s which were perhaps the heyday of custom WADs and of full episode megaWADs in particular. Think the Memento Mori WADs and Requiem for instance, not to mention several id levels) ... indeed, ISTR that I actually went so far as to even take the time to properly calculate out where each vertex ought to be to make a "proper" pentagram.

Old Post 02-25-13 20:02 #
Amarande is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Z0k
Junior Member


Posts: 186
Registered: 05-09


Umm im hope im not necroing or doing something like that, but its a concern about my maps.

Are those kinda hards or kinda easy?
My maps are : Freedoom II : map 15 and map 28
Freedoom I : Map E1M5

Just wondering so i can make a few tweaks regarding ammo and health (i guess was that) so if anyone did the data gathering about my maps can tell me what was the reason why they are easy/hard

Thanks

EDIT: i know that sometimes i forgot to remove some flags on monsters / items so if anyone can tell me i will fix it and trying to upload the wad around these days when i get a free day

Last edited by Z0k on 03-18-13 at 19:31

Old Post 03-18-13 19:24 #
Z0k is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
fabian
Member


Posts: 386
Registered: 12-12


In order to give another answer to the original question of this thread: Yes, I find Freedoom a lot harder than the original Doom 2 and I would also say it's too hard. This applies especially to the first part of the often mentioned Map 05 with literally hundrets of Imps and even some Demons on damaging floor. Map 04 had its moments, too, especially the trap near the end which releases dozens of Demons, but I am still stuck in Map 05.

I am a rather novice player but just played through Doom 2 Map 05 without too much trouble just to make sure I am not comparing apples to oranges. Could you please remove some of the Imps ao replace them with Former Humans and Shotgun Guys to make the level a bit easier?

Old Post 03-18-13 21:26 #
fabian is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Catoptromancy
Senior Member


Posts: 1021
Registered: 08-06



fabian said:
stuck in Map 05.


Which skill level are you using?

Old Post 03-18-13 21:34 #
Catoptromancy is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
fabian
Member


Posts: 386
Registered: 12-12



Catoptromancy said:
Which skill level are you using?

BOTP :/

Old Post 03-18-13 22:04 #
fabian is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Catoptromancy
Senior Member


Posts: 1021
Registered: 08-06


Excellent! We need testers in all the skills. That map should be adjusted.

Old Post 03-18-13 22:10 #
Catoptromancy is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
fabian
Member


Posts: 386
Registered: 12-12



Catoptromancy said:
Excellent! We need testers in all the skills. That map should be adjusted.


I think there are two issues that make this specific level feel unfair:
1) You lose too much health in the beginning when you have to jump into the lava river and fight about a dozen Imps. I suggest to either turn the lava into water or add one additional radiation suite right at the beginning, e.g. on the "bridge" towards the locked building. Else, you don't have a fair chance to reach a suite, hidden in the small alcoves in the tunnels, before fighting at least half a dozen Imps. Also, if you jump to the left of the "bridge", there is a Spectre that should be turned into a visible Demon at this point in the game. The fake rock wall is also stupid, BTW.
2) The map is full of Imps and Demons which makes the Shotgun the preferred choice. However, there is not enough ammo for that weapon. I'd suggest to add a shell box here and there and to replace some of the Imps with Shotgun Guys so you don't run out of ammo that early. Alternatively, make the chain gun available more easily and provide some more ammo for it.
[3) I wouldn't have found the red key myself without the spoilers revealed in this thread.]

Old Post 03-19-13 11:06 #
fabian is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
schwerpunk
Senior Member


Posts: 2067
Registered: 05-12


I'm going to attempt another run of Freedom 1 & 2 on HMP without skipping levels, but as a cursory comment I can confirm that for this average skilled Doomer, that even the single-digit levels of Freedoom are very difficult. Even frustrating. I rarely get very far in my playthroughs.

Old Post 03-19-13 12:21 #
schwerpunk is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Catoptromancy
Senior Member


Posts: 1021
Registered: 08-06



schwerpunk said:
HMP...I rarely get very far in my playthroughs.


Maybe try -skill 2. A gamer of any skill should be able to win on -skill 2. Post up comments about the maps.

Old Post 03-19-13 13:45 #
Catoptromancy is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
wesleyjohnson
Senior Member


Posts: 1056
Registered: 04-09


Map05 comments:
1. I have to take advantage of a mental note about the two secret alcoves, which I found by extensive level editor digging. I still find it improbable that any player could find those by playing.
2. Don't like that jump into the crack with a frantic fight while frying in the goop, trying to get to the suit, with an imp in alcove blocking you. It is that lack of player choice that bothers me most.
After getting to the suit, I usually restore the health I lost.
3. Even the Id levels have things that were not great ideas. Have seen enough levels that am not impressed with strange things that were done on old levels just because no one had done it before.
It is not that the DOOM room is outright harmful, it is distracting and not part of a level theme.
4. I know where to find the red key now, but I have played this level a dozen times. Finding it the first time was irritating. I remember that I did noclip past the bars into restricted parts of the map (because I could not find the buttons to raise those bars), and walked over the falls by accident. Better if could see it go somewhere. Maybe going down some trough (on a conveyor, behind bars) that the player knew where the other end was.

The quality of play is radically different the first time through, which puts off most new players. Too much based on knowing things which are difficult to find out.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 03-20-13 at 01:25

Old Post 03-20-13 01:15 #
wesleyjohnson is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
fabian
Member


Posts: 386
Registered: 12-12



fabian said:

BOTP :/


That's HMP in regular Doom, BTW.

Old Post 03-21-13 09:20 #
fabian is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
fabian
Member


Posts: 386
Registered: 12-12



fabian said:

[3) I wouldn't have found the red key myself without the spoilers revealed in this thread.]


Also, a Baron guarding the red key? On Map 05? On HMP?

Old Post 03-21-13 09:30 #
fabian is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Catoptromancy
Senior Member


Posts: 1021
Registered: 08-06


The lower skill levels are barely tested. There could be many questionable things that show up.

Can edit the map and be careful to only modify the skill tags. Or replace monsters with careful tagging. Like that baron would not appear on -skill 2 or 3, while a hell knight would appear on skill 2 and 3. Skill 2 could add a little more health for the area.

Old Post 03-21-13 09:50 #
Catoptromancy is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
fabian
Member


Posts: 386
Registered: 12-12



Catoptromancy said:
Can edit the map and be careful to only modify the skill tags. Or replace monsters with careful tagging. Like that baron would not appear on -skill 2 or 3, while a hell knight would appear on skill 2 and 3. Skill 2 could add a little more health for the area.

I think, as a rule of thumb, that monsters should not get introduced earlier or on lower difficulty settings in Freedoom than in Doom 2.

Old Post 03-21-13 10:14 #
fabian is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Amarande
Warming Up


Posts: 13
Registered: 01-06



fabian said:

I think, as a rule of thumb, that monsters should not get introduced earlier or on lower difficulty settings in Freedoom than in Doom 2.



This is perhaps a little simplistic; I myself would think more to the judgment used by TeamTNT, TiC & associates, etc. in the early classical megawads as a more general judgment. Indeed most monsters have been introduced earlier than in DOOM2.WAD in "normal difficulty" megawads without seeming wrongly early. By "normal difficulty" I mean the more old-school releases such as Icarus, the Memento Moris, Requiem, TNT Evilution which were meant to be played by a more typical player base (as opposed to such wads as Eternal Doom, Plutonia, and of course anything based on the Hell Revealed style, which are clearly designed for a more advanced player and therefore do not really enter into this discussion).

Let's go monster by monster:
(Bullet Type Guys)
TROOPER - Not much to say, typical MAP01 fodder.
SS WOLFIE - Mostly irrelevant to the discussion due to primarily factoring in as an 'easter egg' type enemy. Few wads use these guys in any sort of "normal" capacity, anyway.
SHOTGUN GUY - Although DOOM2.WAD didn't include any sergeants until MAP02, many wads have these on MAP01 (indeed, MM2 starts you off facing at least two in the very first room on UV). Furthermore, in the original DOOM, these appeared on E1M1 and could easily be the first or second monster the player even meets during their entire DOOM career! No reason to restrict from any map. :)
CHAINGUN GUY - These can be dangerous, but that is highly situational and they are not out of place even as early as MAP01 (e.g., MM2 - of course, keep in mind that you are immediately in close quarters with the first ones you meet and have obtained a shotgun before then, so they're not too tough.)

("Imp-Class" mobs)
IMP - Typical MAP01 fodder, again.
CACODEMON - This is held back to MAP05 in DOOM2.WAD, but appears as soon as MAP03 in MM2. To be honest, not too mean to a new player at all, unless the player is in tight quarters or is still only able to use the peashooter (and yet the latter situation is inflicted on a player at start-of-episode even in an id map, i.e. E3M1). Even a chainsaw encountered before encountering a Caco makes them reasonable even for an early map (and, indeed, they appeared in the first map of every episode of the first Doom except for E1, and likely the only reason one wasn't snuck in even there on UV was probably because of marketing strategy, i.e., the decision not to feature certain monsters in the shareware version).
HELL KNIGHT - Like the Caco, the important thing here is to let the player adequate dodging space. Like the Caco, id delayed the Knight to MAP05, but MM2, for instance, made good use of it in MAP03.
BARON OF HELL - Like the Caco ... getting a pattern here? :) This is why I classify these four monsters together, because there really isn't very much difference between them except for damage and hit points. Being a little more durable (though no more deadly) than the Knight, perhaps it's better to let the Knight be a more gentle preview. As for when it's right to introduce the Baron, both MM2 and Requiem, to name two, had at least one on MAP05 on UV. (For the sake of the Freedoom level - perhaps, especially given the slime, it is a little early to have two in such a small area. A Knight on skill 3 and just one Baron on skill 4 sounds like a good change.)

(Strictly In Your Face)
DEMON - A mob this basic can easily be used on MAP01 without complaint, no problem. (And MM2, for one, does just that.)
SPECTRE - Complaints about spectres largely are a matter of terrain and lighting, not so much the monster itself, being that it's just a blurry Demon. Nothing wrong with MAP01 here either.
LOST SOUL - These are even weaker than the Demon and Spectre. Pretty sure I've seen them on MAP01 in some or other PWAD of the difficulty type I've noticed above but I'm not quite sure. I do know you'll find at least a couple on Requiem MAP02 though (due to the solitary Pain Elemental on that map).

(More Special Cases)
ARACHNOTRON - These have a tendency to be featured first on MAP07. However, they are a rather easy enemy as long as there is space to dodge (especially if they're only coming from one direction which is a more "normal" situation). It's hard to say what the usual judgment should be on these primarily because, like their bigger counterpart, they are a rather large radius monster that's hard to place effectively in many situations.
MANCUBUS - A fairly advanced enemy owing to its large, damaging fireballs that can be a pain to dodge, much more than the single shots of the Imp-class enemies or the Arachnotron. Although it's probably first introduced on MAP07 in DOOM2.WAD due to an apparent desire by id to surprise a new player with two all-new monsters, it's also an enemy that probably should be introduced sparingly in a normal difficulty wad like Freedoom (even Requiem, probably the hardest of the megawads I'm considering here, doesn't introduce them till MAP07. MM2 introduces a couple on MAP06, TNT Evilution has them all the way back to MAP03, but only sparingly per map).
REVENANT - The key here is COVER. With it, pretty much the same sort of ideals that apply to the Hell Knight or Caco apply. Without it, it's a lot meaner and should perhaps be introduced correspondingly later.
PAIN ELEMENTAL - Like Chaingunners, it's heavily a matter of numbers and location. Far away and in groups suck for the player, while a solo pain elemental up-close does not make for an especially serious threat (e.g., Requiem, which introduces one as early as MAP02).
ARCH-VILE - Ow. An early archvile is usually an indication of an advanced difficulty wad. DOOM II didn't sic one on the player till MAP11 for a reason. MM2 waited even later (MAP12), and Requiem further still (MAP14). The original Memento Mori did introduce them sooner than most (MAP07 on skills 3+, though MAP12 on skill 1-2). I'm not sure off the top of my head where Freedoom has its first one, but this is definitely usually the last enemy (other than an Icon Boss) to be encountered by the player after starting a wad. Again, cover is vital to avoid player frustration.

(Bossy Types)
CYBERDEMON - Some players retain an eternal fear of these guys. Their size, also, generally excludes them from a lot of maps (although they do not necessarily need to be able to move or even threaten an especially large area to be part of a good challenge. Viz. MM1 MAP30). Not something the beginner wants to bump into too soon, and, indeed, even classic PWADs shy away from introducing one earlier than DOOM II's MAP08 (most of the type I've been referring to seem to wait till even later.
SPIDERDEMON - A mob that's hard to place the real difficulty balance of; the true problem here being that its enormous radius means that very many levels simply cannot feature one for lack of a suitable location. Between this and the fact that the player pretty much needs significant firepower due to its being a hitscan enemy and thus essentially impossible to dodge, Spiderdemon levels are rare and cannot really be qualified by a level number. (While Cybs are not too uncommon even in DOOM2.WAD, especially if one plays co-op, there are just three levels in DOOM II that had a Spiderdemon and they are all widely separated).
ICON OF SIN - Having one of these other than MAP30 (or in the case of using the Romero head for technical or special effects purposes) is uncommon, but a few maps do have this. Mostly this is a thing for late maps in a WAD though (of the 'classical' megawads being discussed, Requiem was the only one to feature a pre-MAP30 Icon, as the end of MAP23), the player really needs time to get used to the game first!

Old Post 04-28-13 21:23 #
Amarande is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
wesleyjohnson
Senior Member


Posts: 1056
Registered: 04-09


The difficulty of the Arch-Vile really lies on how much freedom of movement it has, as it jumps about so much, and will reanimate others as meat shields if it can reach them. Turning one loose where you have already left bodies is evil.

Map13 has one arch-vile (at top difficulty only), with an opportunity to blow it up in a room full of barrels. It will run itself through the barrel crusher if given enough time. Usually it gets stuck on the conveyor which gives ample opportunity to take pot shots from various locations. It has not proven to be too dangerous.
Also has one arachnotron, guarding the exit, where a handy corner makes it easy to pick off.
Also has three mancubus, at the docks and warehouse, where the restricted access make it easy to retreat and take pot shots.
Aggressiveness with the mancubus is fatal here.

Map09 at top difficulty has 4 revenants (one loose and 3 on a balcony), a variety of baron and knights stuck in the river (easy), with one baron in a late room (just keep retreating around the corners).
Not having doors that trap you in the room with it is the big difference that makes the difficulty much less than the wads cited.

If anyone find this different than described, then please let me know.

There is one square map (really one room) where 4 doors open and too many mancubus come out (I don't count them), and the only opportunity to run is towards them.
This level seems to be a deathmatch level, occurs too early, and even now I have no pleasure playing through it.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 04-29-13 at 16:10

Old Post 04-29-13 15:50 #
wesleyjohnson is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Catoptromancy
Senior Member


Posts: 1021
Registered: 08-06


Map31 should have all the revenants closer together, not deaf, and facing away from player. The hellknight/baron still needs to be killed for player to leave room, so revenant fight is still mostly forced. This will give player time to gather the guns and ammo.

Old Post 06-10-13 12:49 #
Catoptromancy is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Z0k
Junior Member


Posts: 186
Registered: 05-09


after doing some replay on my maps and...

map15 its hard due archviles, hell knights and revenenats, and probably the chaingunners at start. so in this week i hope i can have a fix which will decrease the number of them since i guess removing few of them will give the map the challenge needed. while they dont come in mass numbers like some maps. they appears in some zones that can be a bit of troubles for new players.

Secrets arent too intuitive so im going to mark them probably with a light arrow or something to call player attention to touch that wall.

map28 probably the hard part comes with the archviles, so im going to reduce the number of them too. going to look what archvile to keep in the map, probably the one that come out after the player hit the swicht on the balcony.

e1m5: i dont find it hard. i can make it out with the pistol from start but probably going to reduce the number of monsters at start.

probably the problem comes when i made the map thinking could be easy for veterans players but i forgot this project was intended for all players like doom and doom2 were.

so im going to make those fix this week.

Also if someone can provide me feed back about that i would appreciate it (mostly on the ammo health balance, since i tend to forget to flag all the stuff in the map).

Old Post 08-05-13 07:20 #
Z0k is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Marnetmar
Forum Staple


Posts: 2853
Registered: 09-10



hex11 said:
Yeah, it's too bad DTWID didn't get released under a more open license. I guess they could still change it though, as it's very recent and all mappers should still be reachable. And yeah it's a vanilla mapset, but there's nothing wrong with having both Boom and vanilla versions of the IWADs.


You may be able to make this work, but you would probably have to modify the DTWID/DTWID-LE/Whatever you want to use levels quite a bit to make them fit in with the rest of the Freedoom mapset.

I would contact Xaser or Alfonzo before contacting any other mappers, though, since they have both taken the place of leaders, so to speak.

Old Post 08-05-13 15:46 #
Marnetmar is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
wesleyjohnson
Senior Member


Posts: 1056
Registered: 04-09


Because I am trying to improve the quality of our secrets and give the players some plausible system.

Marking secrets.
1. Indented door.
2. Texture difference on the door.
3. The obvious bookcase, machine, or other plausible door.
4. Control-like texture set as a control panel amongst a plain texture (STARTAN, etc.).
5. Oddly dark color on door (low light sector just over door).
6. Rest of wall blocked with open access to one area.
7. ...
8. ...
9. Odd color torch among a number of identical torches.
...
99. Blinking light is a bad lamp, and ambiance, not a secret.
100. Do not like floor arrows in Doom maps. Makes it seem like a little kids game.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 08-05-13 at 18:52

Old Post 08-05-13 18:43 #
wesleyjohnson is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
XCOPY
Junior Member


Posts: 213
Registered: 12-12


Number of monsters isn't the only factor involved in difficulty, it's mainly the traps and how they are placed.

Try to fight against a cyberdemon in a small squared 256x256 room with plasma (600 ammo) and no items in the room. Now try fighting a cyberdemon in e2m8 with plasma (600 ammo). Now try to fight a cyberdemon on a slightly higher place than where you are with a few obstacles in the terrain (his splash damage will happen ANYWHERE in the map this way).

These are the most simple i could think of, other monsters may become a real issue depending on their location and the terrain. demons are somewhat dangerous in closed quarters and labirynth-like maps (e3m1, e3m2) or in groups and so on.

Old Post 08-20-13 14:41 #
XCOPY is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
purist
Senior Member


Posts: 2124
Registered: 04-04


Perhaps the overflow maps from D2TWID could be utilised for FreeDoom II. Last I knew there was no plans to do anything else with them and there are not enough of them to make a full DTWID:LE style mop up companion piece anyway.

Old Post 08-20-13 19:35 #
purist is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 11:57. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »  
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Special Interest > Freedoom > Is Freedoom too hard?

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.