iceman57
Banned
Posts: 253
Registered: 11-06 |
The project offered already many things coming the whole world, such as discussing with experts of different domains...
The reason to be here is to get mappers that may use one day this resource kit, nothing more, nothing less...
Time to sleep, find following the interview.
You'll then be able to judge the quality of documentation attached to the project...
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Find following exploding technic in use in the anime and interview of Christopher, a Dim Mak expert living in Reno NV.
DIM MAK : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPWh24YQ1go
(warning Dim Mak is based on meridians, and not on bricks, this is movie fantasy)
BBC TV show : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F93hR4t5ACI
This is the technic in use in the anime and that you'll see appearing on sprites in the kit.
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Interview-May 2008 (Thank You Benoit, you are a deep well of patience)
Introduction :
It's always interesting to see where in the world are located "Hokuto No Ken" fans and to discuss with them.
Some of the board members already know Erle Montaigue.
I am honored for this chance to speak to other Hokuto fans about what for me is coming up on a ten year project. Most recently I have relocated to Reno, Nevada and have been a fan of Hokuto No Ken since summer 99’. I started into martial arts at seven yet I did not truly begin upon the path until sixteen. At this time I was accepted by my teacher in the system of Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan (Blue Wave School). A year after while channel surfing one boring summer evening I chanced a look at the “showtime beyond” station and came across the best martial arts anime and show ever made. The “Fist of the North Star” as it is called here still to this day has only a small cult like following here in the states, despite the fact that this show is pure genius.
Hokuto had a profound effect on me; it not only laid out the template of what a martial artist’s purpose is (to defend those that cannot defend themselves and live honorably), it showed a martial art of pure tactical and simplistic genius. Nanto in the show has hundreds of schools of differing yang/hard physical attacks; this is like ninety percent of the martial arts taught today in the world. Yet Hokuto is unique, it is a system not interested in contesting with others but simply restoring order and dealing justice. The system deals with an opponent tactically blending physical attacks with horrible internal damage (which then turns external).
So like many of us I sought out a system of martial arts that could be my Hokuto in the real world. Sadly there is no single system; if this was the case then I decided to find the lines of similarity from the anime to real life. The result has been a project with no conceivable end in sight, yet here almost ten years later I am honored to share what I have learned with you. The original purpose when I started the martial arts again at sixteen was to learn to live with honor and look after all those who crossed my path instead of turning a blind eye like so many. My Kun Tao teacher had another way of saying this, “Live in this world as it should be, not as it really is.” So for me Kenshiro embodied this ideal.
TRAINING:
Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan-Second Degree Black Belt/Instructor 10 years
Erle Montaigue Taiji System and Baguazhang-Student 8 years
Kun Tao (descended from Willem Reeder’s System)-Student 8 years
Vladimir Vasiliev’s Russian Systema-Student 5 years
1. Hokuto No Ken and real martial art techniques
Your expert opinion, or maybe Sir Montaigue’s one, could be pleasant on the cross of universe between Hokuto and real martial art.
I think this question was kinda answered in my blowhard of an introductionJ Like I said above there seems to be no single martial system that is Hokuto ShinKen. The closest I have come to finding a match is Erle Montaigue’s Taiji, the vital points attacks which make up the majority of Hokuto are just like the attacks in Dim-Mak.
Do you believe that some techniques appearing in the animation have some similar real techniques on which Tetsuo Hara based is comic ?
When it comes to Hara and Buronson’s background and where they got their ideas on Hokuto, I don’t know. However having watched the shows and read the manga one finds there is a huge amount of real martial art technique (Compare this to a show like Dragonball Z-ridiculous energy/chi attacks- or Naruto-this show seems to focus on the characters using mystical aspects of Kuji Kiri in the form of jutsus). Hokuto No Ken has its own share of fantasy of course, yet the styles of the show carry real technique in them. The break with reality of course is the reaction of the vital points (i.e. exploding heads and viscera) and the aura throwing.
Let’s look at a couple of examples of where we can draw lines from the Hokuto attacks to their counterpart in reality:
Against a number of arrogant weaker thugs (i.e. Spade and one Shin’s guards) in the series Kenshiro seems to prefer using the vital points around the temple area using his thumbs to attack. These points are “Toui”, used against Spade which resulted in a three second death, then “Zusetsu” used against the guard in Shin’s fortress which resulted in short term amnesia. From my studies (and by no means is this the only similarity) the counterpart points seem to come from Taiji’s Dim-Mak System.
Spades strike is GB(Gall Bladder)#3 “Shangquan”-the strike is delivered straight in using a one knuckle punch or palm heel-struck with medium force this point will interrupt the balance between your brain and the bioelectric flow of your body. However if struck hard you will rupture the meningeal artery causing a bleed into the brain, death will usually come in three days though not three seconds.
The guard’s strike is probably GB(Gall Bladder)#1 “Tongziliao”-This strike is delivered with a one knuckle punch or the fingertips with the direction of the strike being back to front-medium force applied results in nausea and memory loss.
We could suppose that of course make blow a guy just by pressing some secret points could sounds a bit impossible.
But we could suppose also that during the manga creation, the artist certainly tooks inspiration somewhere.
Ah yes the exploding, in Hokuto the bodies of bad guys seem to be no more than trash-bags filled with blood and guts. When my brothers watched this show for the first time they were quite surprised by the gore. Yet for us fans knowing that the worst of the worst bad guys are about to get attacked by Kenshiro, then the exploding is not only satisfying but necessary. How though does this translate to reality… well it doesn’t exactly.
Kenshiro achieves his results by forcing his own internal energy into that of his opponents which then forces and compacts their energy into a specific spot on the body resulting in the equivalent of a giant zit popping. In reality there is no forcing ones own energy into someone else, you either strike to halt the flow of bioelectric energy or to reverse the natural direction. Only once in all my years as a Houkto fan have I come across a vital point listed as explosive and yes it had to do with the cranium. Yet this point has never been verified by any competent teacher, plus it isn’t unusual to have exaggerated adjectives to describe the damage to vital spots. Whether Hara or Buronson ever came across this target in his reading I don’t know, it makes you wonder though.
However extreme damage to the body has always been spoken about in martial arts circles. Like Ku Yu Cheong who was a master of Iron Palm, he struck and killed a horse with his bare hand. Later when the horse was cut open to reveal cause of death the examiner found that all of the internal viscera of the horse had been pulped and mashed to the opposite side of it’s body.
What is your opinion, and some small list of valid example of existing techniques ?
The main question is to know if T. Hara created this manga in mind or if this is made with real things analysis ?...
Like I wrote before Hokuto No Ken is one of the most realistic manga and anime I have seen in terms of fighting technique (the only other one that comes close in my mind is Grappler Baki). If Hara and Buronson just locked themselves in a room and pounded out story after story then they are of a martial arts genius that put many to shame. Personally I believe from what I have read about the both of them that they have a deep respect for the martial arts and put in thousands of hours of research for their stories. There was a blurb about Tetsuo Hara when Souten No Ken (Fist of the Blue Sky) came out; Hara said that he wanted the fights to be more old style/traditional looking so he went to China for inspiration.
As for valid existing techniques that Hara may have borrowed inspiration from:
Let’s examine the aura throwing we first see Raoh using heavily against Kenshiro in their first battle as successor vs. brother. There are many charlatan snake-oil salesmen out there in the martial arts world today that really believe they can teach you to power up your aura like a DBZ character (the most recent embarrassment I have seen is Yellow Bamboo-Youtube it), then throw it outwards and knock people back six to seven feet. This is completely false and a result of new age belief coupled with too many martial tall tales. Erle Montaigue has also pointed out that if a person is truly eliciting enough power to throw you back then we are dealing with the equivalent force of a twelve gauge shotgun, the person attacked would be dead or at least hospitalized. So where is the truth behind this… when I began my Systema training one of the highest goals to attain was the psychic attack (this is not what you think). In Japanese martial arts there is an attack called “sakki” which means the air murder (remember in martial arts never take the names of attacks too literally), this attack like the Systema psychic attack preys on the natural psychological reaction of the human body (the flinch response is the most basic). Everyday that people are around us we are subconsciously intuiting their body language, so naturally others are doing the same to us. If this is the case then at a very high level of training one need only make the motion with complete intention, thus causing a reaction as if you actually reached out and struck the opponent (note: this type of attack is done fairly close, if you are to far away the mind sees through the deception-this also works better if the person in his mind believes you are better than you actually are i.e. ego). Many people never reach these levels of training simply because they see the technique as a means to an end, in truth all skills work in conjunction with one another.
Let’s look at one more example, a technique of Toki’s. Now Toki is one of the most amazing characters in the series and my personal favorite. Not only did Toki completely master Hokuto beyond even Raoh he also modified and enlarged the catalog of Hokuto healing techniques. It was Toki who gave Rei one more chance to express his love for his friends and especially Mamiya by battling Yuda. This was done through “Shinreidei” a point that extends life to the body but causes unimaginable pain. The counterpart to this point is also found in the Taiji system, KD(Kidney)#1 “Yongquan”. When the body has experienced a high level of trauma the bioelectric system is unable to resume natural flow, physiological damage as well as the fact that too much energy was just used up. In cases like this CPR is used but no revival is evident, even if a defibrillator is used revival is not guaranteed. To help release the stored energy in the Kidneys the point KD#1 is bled with a knife or needle, this point is located in the middle point of the ball of the foot. To clarify this point is still used in conjunction with CPR, plus this point has even been made note of in medical journals due to surgical success in reviving a patient. However if the trauma to the body is bad enough the reserve energy of the kidneys will be completely exhausted and revival will only last a short time (i.e. Rei) death will still result.
2. Pressure points :
Many times in the animation and the comic, the characters refers to "vital points".
Does such points really exist ? Of course could be some interrogation and skepticism, basically anyone can agree on "sensible points", but could we agree on "vital points" concept?
Ah the question of pressure points… this will keep most martial artists in debate for years. Let us see if we can break this down from a Hokuto view point. Hokuto ShinKen causes violent reactions in the body that take an enemy completely out of a fight, sometimes the enemy is aware of what is coming and fights it, yet some don’t ever realize until their head starts spitting brain matter. So obviously Kenshiro is working with something more than pressure points. A pressure point is simply a point on the body that responds when force is elicited against it, like being tickled under the arms, having your ear pinched or someone “nipple-crippling” you. The problem with garden variety pressure points is that adrenaline and endorphins (which are released in great quantities during a fight or flight situation) can block them which also means if your opponent is doped up on drugs or drunk there is no guarantee the point will work. Plus many martial pressure points work off pain, which will only get you killed against bigger guys who can shrug it off or just get more pissed off. So what we want is a system of targets that is reliable in all situations whether strength, drugs or alcohol is a factor. There have only been a handful of people that have been able to resist Kenshiro’s attacks as in the case of Souther who was a genetic abnormality (a reverse energy merdian system), even still once the secret was discovered Kenshiro modified his strikes and the points still did their job. This is where once again Dim-Mak comes in; the points when struck cause an involuntary response to come over the body. In Hokuto No Ken these targets are called power points or vital points (even keiraku hikō (経絡秘孔? "secret chaneling points) meaning that when struck in combination (never rely on striking one or two points in fight no matter how dangerous they are) an enemy cannot continue. As in Hokuto ShinKen Dim-mak points work the same, the secret is that unlike pressure points which have no connection the Dim-Mak points feed off each other causing more and more damage to occur as more point are struck. The main reason Dim-Mak is so disrespected today in the martial arts community, students try to learn by studying acupuncture charts (acupuncture charts don’t really help as much as many think, the Dim-Mak strikes are directed at another meridian that flows underneath the acupuncture meridian-the flow is also in the opposite direction). These people then demonstrate in Dojo scenarios and win then the first time they are assaulted outside the dojo they get their ass kicked. The best example of ancient Dim-Mak vesus modern dim-mak I have seen is the battle between Seiji and Kenshiro, Hokumon vesus Hokuto. During the battle it seems that Ken and Seiji are evenly matched, at the end of the fight Kenshiro explains why Seiji was not even close to winning. Seiji was using incredible technique to strike consciously at the vital points, whereas Kenshiro reflexively strikes each and every vital point that presents itself. Seiji may have been great at intimidating and even fighting people with little or no skill in vital points but Kenshiro’s attacks are neuromuscular reflexive so as the enemy attacks he brings about his own death. Hokumon was a derivative fist that had lost the forms training that Hokuto probably had, the Hokumon monks knew of the vital points but not how to teach reflexive combat against them. So there is our problem today we don’t learn the forms or the linking of vital points for exponential damage to the body.
Additionally, does it exist any way to protect yourself for "death strikes" attack ?
- In example, on a wrestling machine with muscles hiding/protecting points, in order to make a RAOH parallax ?
- In example, on a Sumo-tori who will be protected by his fat, in order to make a Mister Heart parallax ?
So we ask ourselves if these points are so dangerous and effective how do we protect them. A comedic scene that comes to mind in Hokuto No Ken is when one of Jagi’s underlings tries to use an attack he had learned from Jagi on Kenshiro (the point was “Toui”, the temple shot), ironically the point has no effect on Ken instead the attack backfires on the underling.
It makes sense that the Hokuto brothers would armor themselves against their own technique being used against them. For Dim-Mak we train in what is called Iron Shirt Qigong, this builds up electrical resistance against attacks on the points. The points are not invulnerable but it would take a master with a tactically heavy strike to damage the point instead of just a medium strike doing the job.
As for the examples Benoit has mentioned, yes both muscle and fat make it much more difficult to attack certain points. There are two points to remember though some parts of the body will only have so much fat padding (like the armpits, eye area, top-sides-back of the skull and behind the knees), so you are always aiming for the path of least resistance. Also Dim-Mak strikes are based in bioelectricity, think of using a stun gun on a heavily insulated wire… you still short out the device. The real problem with fatter or muscular guys is not if the points will work or not but having the chance to use the points before you are stomped.
3. Teaching and heirs :
Does "Death strikes" technique have a limit of students ?
In the animation, you've 4 students and only one could be the heir
In Hokuto No Ken, the others have their mind totally erased and lost the techniques learning...
Martial Arts has always had it’s legends of masters teaching students by the dark of the moon. Most of the time the true secrets or “Ougi” techniques were only shared with family or students that had been with master so long that they were considered family. From the Hokuto viewpoint the system was so powerful that there would be no one that could stand against it so the successor had to be chosen correctly. However today in our modern society it is easier to buy a gun and shoot your enemy than spend decades learning Dim-Mak so the need for secrecy is less. From my own experience in Chung Do Kwan there were two successors during the time I spent with my master, myself and my good friend Jesse who joined the National Guard and wound up in Iraq. One of the ougi techniques our master shared with us in the advanced stages of training was the “Wave Concept”. To oversimplify something like this… striking like a whip with our kicks and punches so that force was delivered into the body instead of jackhammer strikes that barely penetrate the surface. As for dealing with renegade students I saw my master once take the black belt of another student and refuse to teach him anything else. The student had a personality like Jagi’s and before class one night he had brought his girlfriend on to the mat to watch him show off. The student (who was both instructor and black belt) then proceeded to demonstrate moves against other colored belts, when unexpectedly his girlfriend jumped on him playfully. He over-reacted yanking her up and over his head smashing her head and neck down to the ground, she was taken out by paramedics… crying in pain on a back board with a neck-brace.
Another good example of a master having to stop a student is from the movie “The Hunted”. This story was based on a student of one of the master trackers and knife fighters here in the states. The student joined the military and suffered PTS, upon coming back he started killing hunters out in the woods. The teacher tracked him down and stopped him. The movie changes the characters by making the teacher a U.S. Marshall (played by Tommy Lee Jones).
Could it exists possible students or master turned into the dark side of special ops that could have use or teach such deadly technique for street fighting.
Did you ever heard of such fact, of unofficial use in order to make a parallaxes Raoh the conqueror or Shin the Nanto master...
In the martial arts there is always the bad apple that misuses what you teach. What makes this worse is that if the student is also intelligent enough to realize what he is doing and keeps on doing it. The irony of the dark student is that the student begins in awe of the master then within a few years the student believes he knows better than the master. This arrogance is usually a base part of some people’s personalities, so as the student gains more power their rebelliousness festers. To counter this long ago many student waited on masters doorsteps for weeks then if accepted they humbly did the cleaning and cooking for their teacher. This process weeded out the undesirables, for the egotistical, arrogant and mad had not the patience to endure. Today because martial arts is not taken seriously; only seen as sport, exercise and hobby we have lost the concept of honor amongst the combat systems. Among the many teachers I have sought out during my studies it was appalling to learn that many had disowned their masters as it were, they felt their masters were holding them back and keeping secrets from them. To these lost student masters they believe they know best and that the ends justify the means. Raoh was a good example of this… he believed he would become greater than Hokuto ShinKen. Yes Raoh had a self made vow to return to the land of his birth and free it but in following this vow the ends justify the means, he dominated the innocent and destroyed life for martial knowledge. Shin also had a distinct personality flaw that revealed itself due to Jagi’s Taunts and his lust for Yuria, turning him into a tyrant.
Sometimes it is very hard when looking at an eager student with incredible potential to see the darkness within. There is another teacher by the name of Dr. Yang Jwang Ming who is a White Crane Kung-Fu teacher. He refuses to teach “Iron Palm” anymore because several of his students caused massive injury to a group of would be thugs.
4. Other "special" arts :
"Death strike" is known and respected as it comes basically from acupuncture.
But what do you believe of as "weird" (sorry, I don't know how to classify such special arts) as the KIAI scream that could paralyze?...
To start… the name Dim-Mak (death point striking) was the original name of Taiji, then it became Hao’ Chuan (loose boxing) and finally Taiji Chu’an (Supreme Ultimate Fist). It did have it’s origins in acupuncture, the creator Chang Sang Feng (born in 1270) was a known acupuncturist and student in Northern Shaolin. Chang wanted a system of combat that could without a doubt protect his family, plus also be used effectively by his wife and children. So Chang theorized that if acupuncture points when massaged or needled in a certain direction would act in a positive healing way then perhaps the opposite was true. He began to first experiment on animals then he went to the local jailers and asked permission to experiment on the prisoners that were to be executed (sounds a lot like Amiba when he was masquerading as Toki and experimenting with vital points). After the points, direction of strike, combination of points and best body weapon were cataloged in Chang’s mind he invented forms to teach the motions effectively to his family and students. The forms were strange in the way they were performed, slow and fast motions coupled with long exaggerated movement they were not like other Chinese Kung Fu forms.
As for other special/weird martial arts there are many. I have heard of the KIAI skill, and there have been teachers that can do amazing breaks against the most unforgiving materials. Also masters of Iron Body that can take blades against their body and even one teacher that can transform his face into that of a jungle cat. Plus those that can dose fires with their energy or even start them up again. The problem is that many of these so called masters are amateur magicians that believe their own hype. Others that really do possess these skills are still no better off then they were before. The skills may look cool at the dojo or get you a date at a party but when it comes down to a fight you are in trouble. All these martial skills are meant to work in conjunction with one another, like putting a huge puzzle together no single piece reveals the big picture it is only when you link enough pieces together that you start to understand. The KIAI is not mystical it is once again acting on the enemy’s psychology and physiology, startling his neuromuscular communication and preying on the liquid in his inner ear. Iron Body allows one to survive against the opponent that gets a lucky blow in or when you face a larger stronger opponent.
The human body is an amazing invention that is capable of abilities far beyond what we normally believe, however a level of training and discipline far beyond the norm is required. Combat is not simple though and it takes every skill the body is capable of working together to come out on top every time.
5. You, the master :
Just for fun...
What character in Hokuto No Ken is the closest to your fighting style and body style ?... (^_^)
You saved the fun question for the end…cool. Well I guess if there was any character I tried to embody it would be Toki. My system of combat has developed similar to Toki’s, I am a defensive-offense fighter. I find it more preferable in sparring to let my opponent make the first move and make more use of his energy than mine. My opponent may throw the first punch or kick but I will hit first.
Thank You again for the opportunity to share this knowledge with other Hokuto fans. Take Care Benoit!
Last edited by iceman57 on 07-27-08 at 02:28
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07-27-08 02:21
