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Brandon D. Lade
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Well, this wad has 4 stars on /idgames right now, so if that thread wasn't closed, I'd be getting close to adding it to my massice list on that other thread that is now closed. But I really want to be able to play this wad (it looks quite nice to me), so keep those high ratings going, please! That wold be appreciated!

Also, if that thread was not closed, I'd be adding 3 other wads to it as well since my last update. They are Murderous Intent, Insertion, and Kill Zone #1. The first two I simply missed; the third one (KZ1) I rated at five stars and that moved the overall rating up from 3.5 to 4 stars.

Old Post 03-23-09 20:51
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Brandon D. Lade
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TheCupboard said:
Brandon: Are you incapable of going out on a limb to play wads that look interesting to you? Do you really need the input of some vague (and frequently protested) voting feature on the archive to determine if a wad is enjoyable to you? I doubt that a public rating system is a valid method of determining a wad's merits.


As I have said before (I don't want to get into another spiral of arguments that results ultimately in thread closure), I still will not play a wad if it does not look decent to me personally, even if the public opinion is good enough. But I just feel like an outsider playing and, especially, enjoying a wad that the public does not think good of.

Old Post 03-23-09 21:51
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esselfortium
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Brandon D. Lade said:
But I just feel like an outsider playing and, especially, enjoying a wad that the public does not think good of.

Who cares? Honestly, we're all playing a game that's 15 years old and it bothers you that much if you enjoy something that other people thought wasn't 4-star quality?

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Old Post 03-23-09 22:02
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Jodwin
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Brandon D. Lade said:
But I just feel like an outsider playing and, especially, enjoying a wad that the public does not think good of.

You wouldn't feel like an outsider if you would realize that you do not need to make a new thread every time you find yet an other wad that you like. To some other people that feels like you're telling them what they should be playing and liking.

Just play any wads that seem interesting to you at all. Even if it's bad you lost, what, five minutes tops. Big deal. And if the wad is good, no, do not make a yet an other post or topic to pimp it, but rather vote for it in the archive or if its creator had made a release topic somewhere, post there. If someone makes a thread asking for suggestions you might post a few of your favorites there (I suggest listing ones that everyone else won't mention), but don't actively try promoting wads that you just happen to like by making new threads all over the place. It's as simple as that.


edit: And especially less pointless polls. Please.

Last edited by Jodwin on 03-23-09 at 22:16

Old Post 03-23-09 22:02
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Brandon D. Lade
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Jodwin said:

You wouldn't feel like an outsider if you would realize that you do not need to make a new thread every time you find yet an other wad that you like. To some other people that feels like you're telling them what they should be playing and liking.

Just play any wads that seem interesting to you at all. Even if it's bad you lost, what, five minutes tops. Big deal. And if the wad is good, no, do not make a yet an other post or topic to pimp it, but rather vote for it in the archive or if its creator had made a release topic somewhere, post there. If someone makes a thread asking for suggestions you might post a few of your favorites there (I suggest listing ones that everyone else won't mention), but don't actively try promoting wads that you just happen to like by making new threads all over the place. It's as simple as that.



That's OK. The problem, however, is that if I enjoy a wad that is not rated well (does not have at least 4 of 5 stars on /idgams), I feel like I'm an outsider for enjoying it. And I don't want to be or feel like an outsider. Why should I have a blast doing something most people find little (or at least much less) fun?

I posted a poll on public rating systems and how I use them/how to correctly use them here. Feel free to vote and leave your thoughts.

And, Jodwin, related to your pointless poll edit, I will try to do that. I hope you don't find the poll referenced above to be pointless.

Last edited by Brandon D. Lade on 03-23-09 at 22:21

Old Post 03-23-09 22:15
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Jodwin
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Of course, the rating system in the archives is actually pretty pointless in some cases. For example with wads that, for a reason or an other, would normally get very little attention just getting the author's friends to "VOTE FIVE" screws the grading a lot. Similarly there have been files that have got negative spam votes for whatever reason. Really, you should take the votes as some sort of a god send fact only if the file itself is already very well known (HR, Memento Mori, AV, etc.). Not to mention that it's also relatively easy to circumvent the IP check which is supposed to prevent anyone from voting more than once.

So ignore the star ratings. If you want to put any weight on any ratings on the archives, then look for the longer written reviews that aren't just made of "GREAT!" or "SHIT!".

Old Post 03-23-09 22:21
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Brandon D. Lade
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Jodwin said:
Of course, the rating system in the archives is actually pretty pointless in some cases. For example with wads that, for a reason or an other, would normally get very little attention just getting the author's friends to "VOTE FIVE" screws the grading a lot. Similarly there have been files that have got negative spam votes for whatever reason. Really, you should take the votes as some sort of a god send fact only if the file itself is already very well known (HR, Memento Mori, AV, etc.). Not to mention that it's also relatively easy to circumvent the IP check which is supposed to prevent anyone from voting more than once.

So ignore the star ratings. If you want to put any weight on any ratings on the archives, then look for the longer written reviews that aren't just made of "GREAT!" or "SHIT!".



For one, you talked about a wad being "well knowsn". In your view, what is the minimum number of total votes it should it have for me to pay any significant attention to its overall rating?

Secondly, some wads ARE clearly well known, and they are fairly widely accepted as good quality, yet they are rated below my 4 star threshold with many votes. A classic example used is Serenity, Eternity, and Infinity. These are widely accepted as good wads, especially for their time, yet with all 3 having plenty of vots, 2 of them are rated under 4 stars. What might be up with that (and other similar cases, potentially).

And if the conditions described in the paragraph above apply to a wad, then what is your opinion (others beside Jodwing can comment also) on whether I should feel "like an outsider" if I enjoy it? Because that is, all in all, my main problem and the underlying reason I need that rating to be good.

Old Post 03-23-09 22:40
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40oz
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Brandon D. Lade said:
The person above said that someone should upload it!


Oh one person's suggestion determines what should be done with his work?

What if I were to say you should be losered?


Brandon D. Lade said:


That's OK. The problem, however, is that if I enjoy a wad that is not rated well (does not have at least 4 of 5 stars on /idgams), I feel like I'm an outsider for enjoying it. And I don't want to be or feel like an outsider. Why should I have a blast doing something most people find little (or at least much less) fun?



I hear all the cool people are snorting coke and shootin heroin. Why should you not not join them, else become an outsider?

Old Post 03-23-09 22:40
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Jodwin
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Brandon D. Lade said:
For one, you talked about a wad being "well knowsn". In your view, what is the minimum number of total votes it should it have for me to pay any significant attention to its overall rating?

Being well known has nothing to do with votes. It means how well known the wad is among people. Cybie 3 has much more votes than Memento Mori 2 and Darkening do, and almost as many as Darkening 2 has. Still Memento Mori 2 and the Darkening series are, I bet, much more widely known.

Old Post 03-23-09 22:56
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Brandon D. Lade
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JohnnyRancid said:


Oh one person's suggestion determines what should be done with his work?

What if I were to say you should be losered?



I hear all the cool people are snorting coke and shootin heroin. Why should you not not join them, else become an outsider?



Please, please don't loser me. I take others' suggestions. Not to mention, that post is WAY up near the beginning of the thread. Let it be forgotten, please.

Regarding your outsider comment, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say. And please don't be silly.

Old Post 03-23-09 22:57
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Jodwin
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Brandon D. Lade said:
Regarding your outsider comment, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say. And please don't be silly.

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Old Post 03-23-09 23:04
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Brandon D. Lade
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Jodwin said:

Being well known has nothing to do with votes. It means how well known the wad is among people. Cybie 3 has much more votes than Memento Mori 2 and Darkening do, and almost as many as Darkening 2 has. Still Memento Mori 2 and the Darkening series are, I bet, much more widely known.



That's understood. But I wasn't asking about a wad being "well known". I was asking how many votes a wad should have - a wad that is not a special wad (joke, ridiculous monster count, etc.) - for me to consider the overall rating worth paying a decent amount of attention to. Obviously well known wads will usually have a lot of votes, but that does NOT mean a wad that is not as well known won't have a vote count high enough to justify me paying attention to the overall rating.

Also, I discussed another issue or two further down in the post you quoted from. It would be appreciated if you'd discuss those issues as well. You can always send me a PM if you don't want to make a post public.

Old Post 03-23-09 23:06
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Brandon D. Lade
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Jodwin said:

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm



My content advisor blocks access to that site. And I don't want to find a way to break it - it was set in place by my parents.


Jodwin said:

You wouldn't feel like an outsider if you would realize that you do not need to make a new thread every time you find yet an other wad that you like. To some other people that feels like you're telling them what they should be playing and liking.

Just play any wads that seem interesting to you at all. Even if it's bad you lost, what, five minutes tops. Big deal. And if the wad is good, no, do not make a yet an other post or topic to pimp it, but rather vote for it in the archive or if its creator had made a release topic somewhere, post there. If someone makes a thread asking for suggestions you might post a few of your favorites there (I suggest listing ones that everyone else won't mention), but don't actively try promoting wads that you just happen to like by making new threads all over the place. It's as simple as that.


edit: And especially less pointless polls. Please.



Why should I not be putting up threads or posts for every good episode/megawad I find?

Last edited by Brandon D. Lade on 03-23-09 at 23:40

Old Post 03-23-09 23:07
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Brandon D. Lade
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Jodwin said:

You wouldn't feel like an outsider if you would realize that you do not need to make a new thread every time you find yet an other wad that you like. To some other people that feels like you're telling them what they should be playing and liking.

Just play any wads that seem interesting to you at all. Even if it's bad you lost, what, five minutes tops. Big deal. And if the wad is good, no, do not make a yet an other post or topic to pimp it, but rather vote for it in the archive or if its creator had made a release topic somewhere, post there. If someone makes a thread asking for suggestions you might post a few of your favorites there (I suggest listing ones that everyone else won't mention), but don't actively try promoting wads that you just happen to like by making new threads all over the place. It's as simple as that.


edit: And especially less pointless polls. Please.



Why should I not be putting up threads or posts for every good episode/megawad I find?

Old Post 03-23-09 23:50
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GreyGhost
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Brandon D. Lade said at various points in this thread:
Secondly, some wads ARE clearly well known, and they are fairly widely accepted as good quality, yet they are rated below my 4 star threshold with many votes. A classic example used is Serenity, Eternity, and Infinity. These are widely accepted as good wads, especially for their time, yet with all 3 having plenty of vots, 2 of them are rated under 4 stars. What might be up with that (and other similar cases, potentially).
Player's tastes change. The Serenity trio were well regarded in their day and deserve a place in any wad afficionado's collection - but times have changed - we have better editing tools, more capable source ports and a trend towards larger more detailed maps. So to some extent the older wads are fashion victims, others simply haven't been "discovered" by newer players.


Obviously well known wads will usually have a lot of votes, but that does NOT mean a wad that is not as well known won't have a vote count high enough to justify me paying attention to the overall rating.
Not neccessarily - the database hasn't been around as long as the archive and I think you'll find that for the most part people are rating wads shortly after their release with wads that pre-date the database tending to be overlooked.


Why should I not be putting up threads or posts for every good episode/megawad I find?
The mods might start treating them as spam. Might be something else to add to the blog site I suggested in another thread.


But I really want to be able to play this wad (it looks quite nice to me), so keep those high ratings going, please! That wold be appreciated!

The first two I simply missed; the third one (KZ1) I rated at five stars and that moved the overall rating up from 3.5 to 4 stars.

Just to clarify one point - did you bump that wad's rating in order to play it OR swallow your pride and play the wad before rating it? :P

Old Post 03-24-09 10:56
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Reevys
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Brandon D. Lade said:
I just feel like an outsider playing and, especially, enjoying a wad that the public does not think good of.


I find it really funny how you don't want to be considered an outsider, but then hold opinions like this. The way you go about choosing what levels to play, and your constantly going on about your "Massive List Of All The Best WADs In The World Ever Because The Random Rating System Says So™" is gonna make you more of an outsider than playing a low rated WAD ever could.

Last edited by Reevys on 03-24-09 at 12:58

Old Post 03-24-09 11:37
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Jodwin
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Brandon D. Lade said:
Why should I not be putting up threads or posts for every good episode/megawad I find?

Because:
1) It's annoying
2) People can find wads to play on their own, or if they can't, they'll ask others for suggestions. You don't need to tell others every time you find something that it's good.
3) It can feel like you are telling others what they should like and play. Sure people tell each other all the time what they think about maps they play, but the way you're creating a new topic for every new wad you find feels like you're telling every one else that they should go and play something just because you like it.

Almost all wads will end up in the archives anyway and they will get their five minutes of publicity in /tnc. You do not need to promote just anything you find, we will find about them anyway even without your help.

Old Post 03-24-09 11:40
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Brandon D. Lade
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GreyGhost said:
Just to clarify one point - did you bump that wad's rating in order to play it OR swallow your pride and play the wad before rating it? :P


If you are asking about kill_z10, it looked like a wad I wanted to play, so I used my vote to give it 5 stars and that improved the overall rating from 3.5 to 4. But I only voted ONE time.

Please do not intentionally downrate it just to spite me.

Old Post 03-24-09 20:21
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40oz
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Brandon, honestly your argument is retarded. I hate to be offensive but I simply can't find a better way to describe it. You would probably less of an outsider if you went looking for wads that are heavily underrated. You are the only one here that lets that rating system determine what wads you allow yourself to play. YOU are the outsider.

Old Post 03-24-09 20:58
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esselfortium
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Brandon D. Lade said:


If you are asking about kill_z10, it looked like a wad I wanted to play, so I used my vote to give it 5 stars and that improved the overall rating from 3.5 to 4. But I only voted ONE time.

Please do not intentionally downrate it just to spite me.


You have got to be joking.

You voted on a wad before you played it so that it could meet your completely arbitrary rating standard. YOU DO REALIZE OF COURSE THAT IT IS INCREASED TO 4 ONLY BECAUSE YOU VOTED FOR IT WITHOUT PLAYING IT, RIGHT?!

I don't even know what to say; you're apparently either a complete stubborn idiot, an incredibly bad obsessive-compulsive disorder case, or autistic.

This is just getting ridiculous, Brandon. Stop it.

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Old Post 03-24-09 21:27
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Jodwin
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esselfortium said:

I don't even know what to say; you're apparently either a complete stubborn idiot, an incredibly bad obsessive-compulsive disorder case, or autistic.

This is just getting ridiculous, Brandon. Stop it.


Considering that JohnnyRancid's sarcasm was lost on him, and that the most trustworthy source of information in the world says this:

Wiki said:
The use of irony introduces an element of humour which may make the criticism seem more polite and less aggressive but understanding the subtlety of this usage requires second-order interpretation of the speaker's intentions. This sophisticated understanding is lacking in people with brain damage, dementia, autism

I guess we can draw our conclusions.

:P

Old Post 03-24-09 21:41
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Brandon D. Lade
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I guess I am starting to understand the point many of you are making (look at esselfortium's post). But someone rated on kill_z10.zip and said they rated it down just to spite me. While I may be being silly, that was not called for. But I will try my best to stop being silly and posting this nonsense.

But just as a question, I am interested in wads where the architecture is at least tolerable and the gameplay offers at least a reasonable amount of fun. It doesn't have to be quite "pretty" looking, but it can't look like complete cr*p either. And it has to be reasonably fun overall, even if there are some faults or uninteresting points. Considering those requirements, I just ask one question: If I do want to, just for myself, use the /idgames ratings as an indicator as to whether or not I want to play a wad, what would you recommend my "break point" be in general for ratings (in other words, what is the rating that would generally represent my minimum requirements - bearable architecture and a reasonable amount of fun)?

Old Post 03-24-09 22:08
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1. When I like something that most people don't, that's not because I'm an outsider. That's because I have my own tastes. The spectrum of styles that I appreciate is not the same as that of everyone else. More specifically, I don't mind sub-par gameplay or environments if I see something special about the experience - even if the work could fairly be described as garbage. I genuinely enjoy the occasional cheese from '94. Also, I don't like Hell Revealed, which goes against the decrees in your system of /idgames astrology. There are some similar facts which are true for you, and they are a good thing. Tastes that differ from those of the majority are not a curse; they allow you to find your own personal gem that everyone else has overlooked, and that is a beautiful thing.

2. Compulsions like the one you've been describing always either:
a) go away eventually, or
b) become ever stronger, spread to other situations, and ruin your life. I suggest you take steps to make sure that the former results and not the latter. Try to desensitize yourself to the ratings - download and play wads no matter what the ratings are, and allow yourself to like them. If it's just too hard to ignore the ratings when you see them, then try completely bypassing them for a while, by accessing one of the download mirrors directly.

3. I will not dignify "What would you recommend my "break point" be in general for ratings?" with an answer. Your need for an answer to that is the problem.

4. Your parents are blocking you from Wikipedia?

5. I downvoted kill_z10.wad to spite you.

Old Post 03-24-09 22:12
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Reevys
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If anything, Brandon, you should pay attention to the longer written comments on a WAD, rather than the stars it has.

Seriously, the idea that you think you can judge a WADs detail and gameplay from a bunch of stars is ridiculous. The longer comments are really your best way for finding this out, but you still have to remember that it's just someone else's opinion, and you won't really know what it's like until you play it.

Old Post 03-24-09 22:47
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Brandon D. Lade
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I've decided now that I am willing to play a wad with a rating average of only 3.5/5 on /idgames. So the good news is that I am making some progress and not being so ridiculous. Hopefully sometime soon I won't let the ratings bother me much at all.

Old Post 03-25-09 02:22
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40oz
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Your standards are way too high it's embarassing to consider you a doomer. In doom you really shouldn't have stagnant standards. I've played many wads, from the very best to the worst wads ever, and I've never regretted being exposed to them. It's like you are intentionally censoring yourself from anything that can possibly be low quality, which is frightening.

Old Post 03-25-09 03:43
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Brandon D. Lade
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JohnnyRancid said:
Your standards are way too high it's embarassing to consider you a doomer. In doom you really shouldn't have stagnant standards. I've played many wads, from the very best to the worst wads ever, and I've never regretted being exposed to them. It's like you are intentionally censoring yourself from anything that can possibly be low quality, which is frightening.


3.5 could be low quality, at least in my opinion. Also, I am at least making some progress, and you know nothing comes fast. It is important to not worry and be patient.

Old Post 03-25-09 03:50
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TheDarkArchon
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Brandon D. Lade said:
I've decided now that I am willing to play a wad with a rating average of only 3.5/5 on /idgames.


Wow, you completely missed the point.

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Old Post 03-25-09 03:54
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Brandon D. Lade
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TheDarkArchon said:


Wow, you completely missed the point.



No, I didn't miss the point. I am making progress. But changing my habits does not happen overnight. So any progress on any given day or even week is good.

Old Post 03-25-09 03:57
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esselfortium
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How many nights would it take for you to stop posting

Old Post 03-25-09 04:20
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