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Pottus
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Posts: 795
Registered: 07-09



darknation said:
actually, I never even played the fucking wad. this was just a way for me to see who the new crop of n00bish retards are, where they live, who leaps in to defend them, the new social strata, etc etc etc.

ho ho tro.



I'll say one thing, your level of language is that of a 14 year old and attitude worse than a 5 year old whats the point of posting such non-sense? I think maybe you should go and crawl back under the rock you came from.

Old Post 12-13-12 17:44
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Captain Ventris
Junior Member


Posts: 212
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Gez said:
(It's unfair to ZPack to imply the 29 other maps are all bad.)

I would not advise overhauling old maps



You're right, I only meant to use the most obvious example from something that got mixed reviews.

I didn't mean to rehaul the maps, because you're right . I meant redo in the sense of making a new map on the same basic idea to take the old map's place.

Old Post 12-13-12 17:56
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esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


Posts: 6409
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The Ultimate DooMer said:
And there I was thinking that DW might just be starting to come out of it's 2010-let's-demonise-zdoom-and-anything-else-unconventional-that-drags-players-out-of-their-comfort-zone phase...nope, just took a single troll post from an old hand to bring it all back. And seeing a bunch of other old hands jumping on the bandwagon straight afterwards is even more disappointing.


I'm not sure why you feel the urge to claim that every time a wad you like isn't universally adored, it's because of a conspiracy of evil, ZDoom-hating purists out to ruin your day, but it was stupid when you claimed it for Stronghold and The Phobos Directive and it's even more blatantly stupid now. Like Captain Ventris, I've been heavily involved in mod development for ZDoom and other advanced source ports. So has Darknation. None of us have any innate bias against any source port or alterations to the game. This just isn't an enjoyable or particularly competent wad. You're talking out of your ass because, as usual, you have nothing real to contribute and would rather demonize whoever doesn't like what you like.


Well, if it had been made for Boom it would look (and be looked at) a lot different. (not to mention some of the maps wouldn't have been the same)

It would've still been an overly glorified collection of My First Maps™. Where do you get this stuff? Seriously?

Old Post 12-13-12 18:53
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Tarnsman
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I think we can all safely say this project would have benefited more from MORE Zdoom features. Like the sector slopes that look like crap or the "no gravity" portion of the space station that is literally just an SRS raised up to simulate floating.

Old Post 12-13-12 18:58
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exp(x)


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The Ultimate DooMer said:
And there I was thinking that DW might just be starting to come out of it's 2010-let's-demonise-zdoom-and-anything-else-unconventional-that-drags-players-out-of-their-comfort-zone phase

Have you forgotten how many boners were erected for Action Doom and Urban Brawl? Yes, I realize that those were before 2010, but they were most definitely ZDoom.

Old Post 12-13-12 19:50
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The Ultimate DooMer
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Have you forgotten how many boners were erected for Action Doom and Urban Brawl? Yes, I realize that those were before 2010, but they were most definitely ZDoom.


They were made in a time when ZDoom was more fashionable due to a lot of big names making projects for it (like the author of those two, hence the boners) and because it wasn't as easy to create crappy mashup wads with 10000 R667 monsters. (at least when the first one was made)


It would've still been an overly glorified collection of My First Maps™.


True, but it still wouldn't have provoked an extreme reaction. You can say evil conspiracy all you like but answer this...when was the last time a classic/Boom wad got jumped on and demonised so hard like some of the more recent ZDoom stuff?


So I wondered if any of the later levels were up to much. So I typed a random number into the console...27

Hell yeah!! I gotta try and finish this level... [/B]


You have to wait for the mobs to get nearer...bit flawed as one won't move and another one can hit you before the third one gets there. (crouching works fine though)

Old Post 12-13-12 21:02
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esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


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The Ultimate DooMer said:


They were made in a time when ZDoom was more fashionable due to a lot of big names making projects for it (like the author of those two, hence the boners) and because it wasn't as easy to create crappy mashup wads with 10000 R667 monsters. (at least when the first one was made)


That has literally nothing to do with anything relevant to this thread and you know it.


True, but it still wouldn't have provoked an extreme reaction. You can say evil conspiracy all you like but answer this...when was the last time a classic/Boom wad got jumped on and demonised so hard like some of the more recent ZDoom stuff?

Presumably it was also the last time something so consistently mediocre and noobish was so heavily praised, Cacoward-nominated, and recommended unironically as "one of the top three wads of all time". Backlash comes from overblown praise or hype, not from a completely made-up bias against your favorite source port. As I already pointed out, most of the people complaining about this wad (and all of the other wads you've given this exact same handwave defense to) already use ZDoom. Many of us have been directly involved in the development of ZDoom wads.

I honestly feel sorry for the author getting caught in the middle of this stupidity, but I'm not going to let that keep me from earnestly speaking my mind about the work and the reaction to it (and the reaction to the reaction!).

Old Post 12-13-12 21:12
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Tarnsman
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The Ultimate DooMer said:
True, but it still wouldn't have provoked an extreme reaction. You can say evil conspiracy all you like but answer this...when was the last time a classic/Boom wad got jumped on and demonised so hard like some of the more recent ZDoom stuff?


Said "secret evil cabal" pretty much agrees that this Wad would have been improved with more Zdoom features. So shut up.

Old Post 12-13-12 21:41
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VylePhinder
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esselfortium said:

I honestly feel sorry for the author getting caught in the middle of this stupidity, but I'm not going to let that keep me from earnestly speaking my mind about the work and the reaction to it (and the reaction to the reaction!).



And your opinion is pretty much good for only you (if that).

Old Post 12-14-12 00:01
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esselfortium
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VylePhinder said:


And your opinion is pretty much good for only you (if that).


Good catch. For a second I thought I was on a public discussion forum, or that you've been going around shouting your own opinion about it all over the place, telling people who disagree with you that their opinions are worthless. Thank goodness I'm not and you aren't.

Old Post 12-14-12 00:05
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Tarnsman
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VylePhinder said:

STOP DISLIKING WHAT I LIKE! WAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!



Your post had a few layers of bullshit I had to clear off, but I fixed it for you.

Old Post 12-14-12 00:07
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Pure Hellspawn
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i assume this is not a pistol start mapset?

haven't played yet and so i don't have an opinion, but was just curious.

Old Post 12-14-12 00:10
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VylePhinder
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Tarnsman said:


Your post had a few layers of bullshit I had to clear off, but I fixed it for you.



LOL! ** You're trying too hard

Old Post 12-14-12 00:12
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VylePhinder
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esselfortium said:

Good catch. For a second I thought I was on a public discussion forum, or that you've been going around shouting your own opinion about it all over the place, telling people who disagree with you that their opinions are worthless. Thank goodness I'm not and you aren't.



You started it, don't blame me, cuz your memory sux, and mommy's little boy thinks his opinion is worth more than others.

Grow up youngster.

Old Post 12-14-12 00:13
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esselfortium
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VylePhinder said:


You started it, don't blame me, cuz your memory sux, and mommy's little boy thinks his opinion is worth more than others.

Grow up youngster.


Okay well this certainly escalated quickly. Enjoy your stay in Losers!

Old Post 12-14-12 00:16
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Yeah sure you can send ol' Vyle off to losers forum. You're a mod, you can do that. It is totally your call.

But was it really necessary to have all these pointless arguments before you did this?

Losering someone who is not behaving according to the rules shows that mods have authority and are prepared to use it where necessary, usually with little or no explanation of why. I have run afoul of mods in the past, though not in a long time.

But getting involved in all these dumb arguments, and then losering someone just makes it look like you couldn't win the argument any other way, and had to resort to the Doomworld equivalent of brute force rather than any semblance of cleverness to make your point.

And let's not even start on the whole 'darknation was behaving far worse than anything vylePhinder has said or done.'

And, yeah, yeah, the irony is that I myself have gotten involved in the same dumb argument, the very thing I have accused you of doing, and I run a fair chance of being losered for 'backseat moderating.', but again, whatever.

C'mon essel, you're smarter than this, with all respect. Let the children behave like children if they must. You, on the other hand, are the Doomworld equivalent of an adult.

For what that is worth.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 12-14-12 at 02:44

Old Post 12-14-12 02:29
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esselfortium
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I didn't loser him for arguing. I losered him for multiple instances of childish name-calling, mod sass, and intentionally repeating shit he was told not to do (not in this thread). Amusingly, instead of trying to get out of Losers he just went around downvoting everything on idgames with my name on it to get back at me, so I'm not really feeling like a mature contributor was lost here today. Sorry if you don't like it.

Old Post 12-14-12 02:41
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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essel, I have no issue with you choosing as a mod to loser someone. That is your decision and I am not arguing with that. I have been losered by you once before, and I bear no hard feelings over that, being my own stoopid fault and all.

I just didn't see the need for you of all people to get involved in all the arguments before you did so, though as a mod, explaining your point of view as strongly as you wish is your prerogative.

Anyway, thanks for taking my point well.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 12-14-12 at 02:59

Old Post 12-14-12 02:51
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Joshy
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I actually thought Vylephinder might've been Brandon, but he's too polite for that I guess.

I 'played' this - well more specifically, I warped to all the levels to check them out. I can't say this is a quality project. I'm more concerned about the layout structure and flow than details, so a quick browse through, and looking on automap IDDT shows a very minimal layout structure, which frankly, doesn't leave a lot to be desired. Too simplistic for my taste, and a lot of amateurish design. But just to echo everyone, this project, however mediocre, does show good elements of creativity, and would like to see how far Deathmatcher can go with good criticism he can learn a lot from. I'd suggest making maps limit-removing one at a time, upload onto this forums, and read what can be improved exactly. Then if you get all the basics (architectures, texturing, gameplay, and layout structures) right, the Zdoom features, the voiceovers and whatnot would be more appreciated.

As for people saying Darknation is an idiot, he's been like that for years. Probably what you'd call a doomworld tradition, heh.

Old Post 12-14-12 03:08
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Phml
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I didn't loser him for arguing.


Right. You just pushed him around with borderline provocative answers until you had enough material to pretend he needed to be losered. Great modding there.

Particulary infuriating to me because I feel the same way about BtsX as you claim to about this wad. I could literally copypaste snippets of your answers as my feedback. Of course if I did I'd be a "troll", and if I tried to engage in conversation with Tarnsman and dew who would inevitably pop up to insult me, I'd need to be losered.

I'd just ignore you, but hey, the feature doesn't work on mods on Doomworld. Great policy.

You're a punk as a mod and you're a punk as a modder. There's a long list of mappers I respect in BtsX, yet all of their maps I tried so far turned out to be generic, forgettable, fast-food Doom. What happened? I won't ever know for sure, but when all of them credit esselfortium for the "improvements" to their mapping, when esselfortium has already spearheaded projects which ended up with the exact same kind of terrible maps, I know who I'm going to hold responsible.

You know how to lead and how to create peer pressure, you have power, and you use that power to enforce your absurdly specific standards for what a Doom map should be, standards based on a technical bullet point list.

Does your map has this much height variation? Is there this amount of interconnectivity? Are there this many special actions affecting the environment? Does it look good in screenshots? Then you're down d00d, obviously your map rocks. Gameplay? What, what gameplay? Just throw E1 monsters in there. That's what they did in E1, right? They used this amount of zombiemen and shotgun guys, and it was awesome, so I'll use this amount of zombiemen and shotgun guys, and it'll be the exact same. That's what gameplay is right, shit to shoot. Kill zombiemen. Kill imps. Kill the odd HK or rev. Need challenge? Throw a few chaingunners or arch-viles every once in a while. Spikes of difficulty are great, I read it somewhere. I think that's pacing. Look at this map! There's thirty rockets! This is the rocket launcher map! There's going to be 72 maps in our wad, and 72 is more than 32, so our wad will be the best ever! Cacowards!

Holy fuck.

You're more toxic to this community than anyone else. Sure, some dude might make Brutal Doom, some other one might make Unloved, and people praise that shit; but at least neither of them are turning great mappers into mediocre ones while making them believe they are improving. Neither of them are actively working to make others believe their vision of what Doom should be is the best way Doom can be.

The worst part of it all is I don't even believe you truly feel your way is the best way. I don't even think you really mind Tormentor667's maps or Brutal Doom. You probably just crave the popularity, and get jealous when someone else is under the spotlight.

I'm honestly sorry for my tone (about as honestly as you are, anyway), but you deserve better than the mindless, gawking praise you've been given in this community.

Old Post 12-14-12 11:30
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ale
Warming Up


Posts: 12
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This mapset is allright and the author should keep going. The later levels shows his real potential. Everybody has a learning curve.
I can´t judge as an expert as most of the previous posters but just warp to geonosis or jade cube and is 8/10 material for me.

Respect Deathmatcher´s opinion


Let me get it clear that I don't mind criticism. Even harsh criticism - as long as it's constructive and gives me some clues to improve upon in the future.

Even though it took me half a lifetime to complete, it's still a "beginner's effort" as someone expressed it, so expecting only praises for it would have been silly.

What I don't like is when opinions turn into a flame war and people are being bashed because their opinion differs.

I'm sure it's not asked too much of a community of a 19 year old game to keep stuff like this out of the conversation.

Thank you.


The entire thread should be cleaned

Old Post 12-14-12 13:23
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Katamori
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esselfortium said:
I didn't loser him for arguing. I losered him for multiple instances of childish name-calling, mod sass, and intentionally repeating shit he was told not to do (not in this thread). Amusingly, instead of trying to get out of Losers he just went around downvoting everything on idgames with my name on it to get back at me, so I'm not really feeling like a mature contributor was lost here today. Sorry if you don't like it.


Arguing is OK, but only an idiot would insult a moderator. This is the No.1. rule of online forums, isn't it?

__________________
Interesting stuff around me:
Channel of Doom Let's Plays|Somewehere in Time project thread

Old Post 12-14-12 13:28
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Xaser
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Phml said:
You know how to lead and how to create peer pressure, you have power, and you use that power to enforce your absurdly specific standards for what a Doom map should be, standards based on a technical bullet point list.

Having worked with Essel pretty extensively on BTSX (E2 and E3), DTWID, and various other things (32in24s, etc.), I have not once seen anything happen that fits this description.

(If split, include this post if you must

Old Post 12-14-12 14:25
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Joshy
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Xaser said:

Having worked with Essel pretty extensively on BTSX (E2 and E3), DTWID, and various other things (32in24s, etc.), I have not once seen anything happen that fits this description.

(If split, include this post if you must

Well, I better step in, considering one of my maps were fixed reasonably well by Essel (in terms of HOMs and shit), and I can state that he's done one heck of a job with the map (and it's a damn good 'first map' for E2 of BtSX! Consider this an advertisement), and he does have a good sense of what a good map should be like... although he was kinda against my initial secret map, again, although difficulty is probably his Achilles heel (basically nearly the whole team stepped in, including dew, to defend my map, so it's not all Essel-force at works, if that what you were arguing for. The project's all for democracy, dammit! I like to belittle him a little bit sometimes :P). Still, in all seriousness, he was a great project leader to work with, and am glad to have made 'quality' maps that will be included in his mapsets.

EDIT: Not to mention, Xaser is a freakin' freak. 'Nuff said!

Old Post 12-14-12 14:40
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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With respect to both Phml on the one hand and Xaser and Joshy on the other, it is not difficult to see why essel provokes such polarized opinions.

Let's face it, essel can and does come off as argumentative and superior at times. That is just how his posting is. Whether he is like this in person I doubt, but the odd post does certainly convey that impression. I have been on the receiving end on a number of occasions, and no one can tell me it is not there.

Joshy and Xaser, you guys are both top tier mappers, so of course you guys are not going to get that end of the deal. And in total fairness to essel, at least he expects the same remarkably high standards from himself as he does from others, and that at least is something I can and do respect. I mean, I can't think of anything essel has been involved in that wasn't better for it.

I haven't always seen eye to eye with essel. I think the way VylePhinder was losered could have been done better. But in the end, am I a better mapper for essel's usually-constructive-but-sometimes-overly-opinionated posting? Yeah, I actually think I am.

So while it is not hard to see why Phml could hold such opinions, I think essel has done far more good than harm around here.

Is essel intolerant of wads/mods that don't meet his particular criteria? The brutal truth is he is no more intolerant that Doomworld as a whole. Doomworld is pretty harsh with projects/mods that don't meet a pretty narrow range of criteria. essel is just more outspoken about it than most.

Old Post 12-14-12 15:32
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Pavera
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Phml said:

You're a punk as a mod and you're a punk as a modder. There's a long list of mappers I respect in BtsX, yet all of their maps I tried so far turned out to be generic, forgettable, fast-food Doom. What happened? I won't ever know for sure, but when all of them credit esselfortium for the "improvements" to their mapping, when esselfortium has already spearheaded projects which ended up with the exact same kind of terrible maps, I know who I'm going to hold responsible.



All essel did for me was help me overcome some of the detailing inconsistencies I couldn't quite figure out, and he was very pleasant about it. The layout, gameplay and difficulty balance were all my work. When it came down to it, Essel really wanted the mappers to do all their own work and he only stepped in when they either requested help with certain things or if they disappeared/couldn't finish their maps. And in that case, he tried his best to match THEIR style, rather than impose himself upon the work they'd already finished.

Anyways, I'm sorry you didn't like my map. That was mostly my fault. And of course I don't mean to imply that I'm on your long list of respectable mappers.

--

Regarding DTS-T, I've described it both in IRC and in my /idgames comment as a "megawad without a megawad of ideas". I still stand by that, but I don't mean to suggest that it doesn't have ideas. In fact, I would argue that Deathmatcher's heart was in the right place during the development of DTS-T, and I'd hate for all the drama surrounding it to discourage him from further mapping. He's certainly got the level of commitment necessary to craft something truly excellent, and his attitude has been remarkably cool given the divide between glowing and terrible reviews he's received. What DTS-T deserves is a sober criticism, rather than all of the knee-jerk abhorrent reactions (or the gushing ones). And I say that coming from a position of loyalty to the BTSX team.

Old Post 12-14-12 15:59
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esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


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Phml said:


Right. You just pushed him around with borderline provocative answers until you had enough material to pretend he needed to be losered. Great modding there.

Particulary infuriating to me because I feel the same way about BtsX as you claim to about this wad. I could literally copypaste snippets of your answers as my feedback. Of course if I did I'd be a "troll", and if I tried to engage in conversation with Tarnsman and dew who would inevitably pop up to insult me, I'd need to be losered.

I'd just ignore you, but hey, the feature doesn't work on mods on Doomworld. Great policy.

You're a punk as a mod and you're a punk as a modder. There's a long list of mappers I respect in BtsX, yet all of their maps I tried so far turned out to be generic, forgettable, fast-food Doom. What happened? I won't ever know for sure, but when all of them credit esselfortium for the "improvements" to their mapping, when esselfortium has already spearheaded projects which ended up with the exact same kind of terrible maps, I know who I'm going to hold responsible.

You know how to lead and how to create peer pressure, you have power, and you use that power to enforce your absurdly specific standards for what a Doom map should be, standards based on a technical bullet point list.

Does your map has this much height variation? Is there this amount of interconnectivity? Are there this many special actions affecting the environment? Does it look good in screenshots? Then you're down d00d, obviously your map rocks. Gameplay? What, what gameplay? Just throw E1 monsters in there. That's what they did in E1, right? They used this amount of zombiemen and shotgun guys, and it was awesome, so I'll use this amount of zombiemen and shotgun guys, and it'll be the exact same. That's what gameplay is right, shit to shoot. Kill zombiemen. Kill imps. Kill the odd HK or rev. Need challenge? Throw a few chaingunners or arch-viles every once in a while. Spikes of difficulty are great, I read it somewhere. I think that's pacing. Look at this map! There's thirty rockets! This is the rocket launcher map! There's going to be 72 maps in our wad, and 72 is more than 32, so our wad will be the best ever! Cacowards!

Holy fuck.

You're more toxic to this community than anyone else. Sure, some dude might make Brutal Doom, some other one might make Unloved, and people praise that shit; but at least neither of them are turning great mappers into mediocre ones while making them believe they are improving. Neither of them are actively working to make others believe their vision of what Doom should be is the best way Doom can be.

The worst part of it all is I don't even believe you truly feel your way is the best way. I don't even think you really mind Tormentor667's maps or Brutal Doom. You probably just crave the popularity, and get jealous when someone else is under the spotlight.

I'm honestly sorry for my tone (about as honestly as you are, anyway), but you deserve better than the mindless, gawking praise you've been given in this community.


If the testers have fun playing it, the visuals are clean, and I don't spend hours wondering where I'm supposed to go, it's a good map. Those are the standards, and they're mostly not even determined by me. There's no bullet point list, and there's no bullying of mappers on any project of mine. BTSX's gameplay was determined by its mappers, period. Any cleanup or revision work I did was given heavy review by Dew and the rest of the playtesting team. And by the mappers. I gave them pretty nearly completely free reign to build what they wanted; the fact that they came up with three megawads worth of release-quality levels is a side effect of the enthusiasm within the project, not of an arbitrary goal that was set. I tried a few times to cut it down to 32 maps, but it was effectively impossible.

If you want to blame someone for provoking VylePhinder, Darknation would probably be a more obvious choice, since that's pretty much what he does. Posts like these put me in an awkward position as a mod, since historically he's been allowed to make them. If you take issue with that, take it up with the site admins. I haven't because I don't feel it's my place to challenge the way things work around here. I'm not even responding to the rest of this because it's such an absurd attack on my character.

Old Post 12-14-12 16:24
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