MAP09 revisions

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I would've done leagues more than this but my mouse is acting up and making it difficult to make Doom maps. Made some small changes to try and help what I consider to be a map in need of a revamp. Most of the changes are minor, shortening and removing some hallways/rooms and deleting some extra objects. I'd suggest someone improve on the layout farther than I have.

Map09 is my creation, and I have updated it several times without getting much feedback. I know of no issues anyone has with my work. My latest update, Rev 9, was submitted Nov 11, only 9 months ago.
What could you possibly find so offensive that you would just start editing it without discussing first what complaints you have.

I don't think this a free-for-all where anyone can just make changes, and then I just change things back the way I wanted them ??
Is this being submitted as suggestions to me, or are you actually submitting this to replace my work. ??

If you think it is in need of a revamp, then please let me know what it is you object to, and then the forum can discuss it.

Do any of the moderators have anything to say on this ??

Well, considering the fact I've seen other people modify sprites and such before for Freedoom that were other peoples submissions, and that all the assets in the Freedoom project are allowed to be edited or released, (at least I'm pretty sure that's the case) I did think that it was alright for me to try to refine it on my own. I suppose it would've been better to discuss this before acting. My apologies.

Anyways, since nobody else has said anything on your map, I'll list off my issues with it:

First off, there are a few dead end areas such sectors 617, 63/84, and many other rooms which are dedicated just to one weapon such as sector 9, 27, 92/95, and 126/515. I feel that the weapons should be placed in the map that flow better with the design rather than you having to step off for a moment into an empty room to pick it up.

Second, the maps design is either flawed or meant to have a huge portion of it optional. You can easily skip a good two thirds of the map by just going in the door on the upper east side of the river, since all of the keys and such to move on are in there. I'd suggest making it so the player has to explore at least part of the mining facility.

Third, there is an abundance of long, narrow hallways with only an enemy or two (or none) in them to compensate. The biggest ones I can point out would be sectors 25, 122, 171/419, and 188. I'd suggest widening them and making there be more interesting battles or something.

And a minor fourth thing, there's an extra yellow key, specifically thing 186, which seems to be added because there's a deathmatch spawn in that room. I'd just suggest just making that side of the door able to open without a yellow key.

There's probably other things I could point out but these are the most major problems I currently have. Again, I apologize for not coming to you first about these issues though. My mistake.

There is a sign up list for map levels (FreeDoom info). I signed up for Map09 after asking around and found that it was a temp. I signed up for Map13 because it was broken and could not be finished, and after asking around and finding that no one was going to fix it.

There are still some placeholder sprites and some unfinished maps which badly need work. These were put into just to have something to test play with. Those will get replaced when someone submits something better. Not every submission is accepted as being better, some get rejected.
FreeDM and UltimateFreeDoom are missing many maps and are seeking people to submit one.

My maps are non-linear, so there are many optional areas, some of which are totally optional. I worked long hours to make every direction from the start an equally valid way to play that map.
I would encourage players to try a different direction each time they play Map09.
Some areas on the map are meant for coop or deathmatch so a single player may not see a need to go there.
The incentive for the player to explore those areas is curiosity, not my forcing them through a pre-determined route.
I have played too many maps that lead the player around with no choice of order or action to want to make one of those.

There are plenty of other maps that reward a player with a weapon when they complete a task. I prefer a logically designed structure, where the weapons are in logical locations. The player can get the weapon when the feel the need, not because of some predetermined route. Most players will get to Map09 already having weapons and I do not know when they will feel the need. I let them decide.

Because the map is designed for coop and deathmatch play, there are two routes to every corner.

There are two yellow keys on purpose (MAP13 does the same thing). The second is in the room where the player is expecting to find a key. A careless player might grab the yellow key and leave, and that was intentional.
It also logical for the managers office to have a extra yellow key, it just does not do the player any good.

The player can go to the river first. That option is intentional. They may even finish the level. Most of the heavy weapons are in the mine and they are going to need the blue key to get to them. To get the blue key, they will need the yellow key which is in the lowest level of the mine. I do not want to predetermine which way the player gets that key. I know of three ways to get to it.

The keys in the water works are skull keys. The player can try going directly in from the broken bridge, but will not get far that way.
There is a lack of heavy weapons in there, the player has to go to the mine to get those.

The long passages are part of the design. Being a mine, there are many passages that were created just to get to the mine face.
This is natural for a mine and I have tried to make my mine design feel like a mine.
A large part of the map is background. A mine needs a huge place to exist within. The long passages around the broken bridge are part of an underground corridor system that connects to other parts of the moon. The broken bridge leads the player to explore the alternate paths.

None of the passages exist to have enemies in them. The monsters are allowed to find the player where ever happens. When I play, it often happens that 20 of them have congregated somewhere.
That is just a good opportunity to get out the chaingun.
There is no predetermined place where they will be.

TrueDude, I think you should focus on developing Animosity instead of this. With best regards.

I have your map submission (After misplacing (losing) it for three days).
I am going to look at it and will consider it as suggestions.
Because I suspect it is based on different design considerations than mine, it may not have much influence. I will consider the degree to which the player is not understanding my map and may make changes to make it more obvious.
Long passageways are always getting modified.
Some of the design is to cope with the limitations of vanilla ports and some with ports that allow jumping. I have tested playability with DoomLegacy and with prboom.
I will likely make another release of Map09 (rev 10.) around January 2013.

Please discuss more if you wish. There is a lack of feedback as to how my maps play, or even if anyone understands how to play them.

wesleyjohnson said:

I don't think this a free-for-all where anyone can just make changes, and then I just change things back the way I wanted them ??
Is this being submitted as suggestions to me, or are you actually submitting this to replace my work. ??

If you think it is in need of a revamp, then please let me know what it is you object to, and then the forum can discuss it.

Do any of the moderators have anything to say on this ??

This is an interesting situation, and I don't think any real argument has come up about this sort of thing before now.

Certainly if this was a different resource (like a texture, for example), the normal expectation would be that it should be fine for a second contributor to submit an improvement to an existing resource. But with levels, it's a much larger, more complicated piece of work and a lot more time has been invested in making it, so it's understandable that you would have a stronger personal interest.

I'd urge you to keep an open mind and work together to resolve this amicably, as it sounds like TrueDude has some good reasons for making these changes.

TrueDude said:

And a minor fourth thing, there's an extra yellow key, specifically thing 186, which seems to be added because there's a deathmatch spawn in that room. I'd just suggest just making that side of the door able to open without a yellow key.

Keys are never spawned in deathmatch; and all doors are unlocked. The aim of deathmatch isn't to go from point A to point B, but to hunt down other players who might be anywhere; so key hunting would be detrimental.

wesleyjohnson said:

Some of the design is to cope with the limitations of vanilla ports and some with ports that allow jumping.

Don't worry about vanilla, Boom (complevel 9 in PrBoom+) is the baseline for Freedoom.

I have edited or modified many maps. Some were broken, unplayable, ridiculously hard or easy, mapper went missing with unfinished map. Some modifications were tiny with retaggings or small thing adjustments, some were massive gameplay changing architecture or thing placement. Some were actual bug fixes while other just felt right to do.

There are no real rules for updating other peoples work. Since original mapper is still around I suggest wesley look it over and touch up the updated one if needed. Map09 did feel like it needed adjustments, like many other maps.

Gez said:

Don't worry about vanilla, Boom (complevel 9 in PrBoom+) is the baseline for Freedoom.

Making a vanilla map for Freedoom is fine. As well as taking into account zdoom users that like to take shortcuts.

Having looked at the submitted map, the only things I saw was where:

1. Took out the passage from the entrance to the broken bridge

That passage connects the outside entrance and mine offices to the water works lobby as part of the moon interconnect. That is why the entrance is connected to it. It was already severed by the broken bridge thus directing players to the mine first. That is the only path to the west end of the broken bridge, and provides an alternate path to the valley for deathmatch.

2. Took out two rescue rooms.

The two rescue rooms are bare rooms put into long mine tunnels in case of collapse. They are purposely minimal and had not been given much detailing. They also provide a place to duck in case a monster happens to be in the passage.

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I cannot agree to either of these changes because those were deliberate design decisions (not accidents or mistakes) and I still see them as positive to the overall design. I understand why they are there and why it would damage the level to remove them.

This might not be understood by all, but it was not hurting play.
These areas usually get modified in every update, so they likely will again. I am still experimenting in this area but do not want to put in a subway station there just so the player understands it. Map is getting too big as it is.
Some textures that say "Subway" or "This way to xxx" would be nice, but I am still adverse to putting in a custom texture just for one sign.


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I disagree with the idea that any person that does not understand the reasons for the design should be able cause the removal of things they do not understand (directly or indirectly). The most interesting map designs are the ones where the layout is realistic and complex enough that parts are not fully understood after 5 or 6 plays.

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Design considerations for vanilla vrs jumping ports:
The design rules require that it play on Boom compatible ports.
While this requires that jumping not be required, it does not prevent a player from playing with jumping. Good design takes into jumping into consideration so the level plays reasonably on all advanced ports too.
This generally means that a 33 high change of level cannot be used as a barrier to the player. There may be places that can be jumped to, but it only changes play a little. It would
be a big mistake to make it easy to jump past an important barrier.

There were many other non-obvious design design decisions made in the years that I have worked on this level map. I do not think I should have to defend them all in detail. Especially, if some of them happen to be for advanced ports, or play considerations beyond the usual. I put in busy areas and quiet areas, and monster free areas, on purpose.

I am still wanting of reviews of my map levels so that I know where players are having problems and what problems they are having.
I can only assume that nobody gets stuck or lost, and nobody has problems getting to the exit. I am most interested in the northern caves and if they are seen favorably (special deathmatch consideration).