Console controls (i dun geddit)

I seem to always hear from newer console gamers that Halo's control scheme is bad and "outdated", and Tim Willits has been emphasizing the fact that the 360 version will be using CoD-like controls, unlike the original Xbox version using Halo-like controls. My question is, what exactly is so "wrong" or "outdated" about the Halo control scheme? It's just a button layout, and one that stands as a very good parallel to (at least, more "athletic") PC FPS controls. Left trigger being secondary fire, A being jump, X being reload and/or action, B being melee, pressing down on the joystick to zoom. I dunno, it makes sense to me.

Maybe it's that FPS games have inhibited player movement so much that they want the controls to stop focusing on movement like jumping and such, since it's not "important" anymore. What the fuck, did we go back to using the Wolfenstein engine? What happened to height variation and actually maneuvering throughout your environment?

Halo v CoD?

Mouse plz

They need to allow for custom control mapping so this debate can end.

All I know is DSDoom (PrBoom on NDS) with customized layout is much worse than a decent keyboard setup on PC (I mean just keyboard, no mouse at all). And Doom is effectively just a 2D game, with autoaim and everything designed without mouselook... Those "real" 3D games must be hell to play on gamepad.

One thing I would like to try someday is Doom with racing wheel, gear shifter and pedals. That might actually work!

hex11 said:

One thing I would like to try someday is Doom with racing wheel, gear shifter and pedals. That might actually work!

And probably better than flight-sim gear. Ask me how I know ;-)

Well...actually with flight-sim gear you CAN control Doomguy, if you are patient with doing the mappings, and also be quite precise, at least for slow speeds. Maybe for ITYTD. However, it falls aparts if you try playing anything harder, let alone HR-style maps or TimeOfDeath's levels.

Doomguy's movements resemble those of a very fast and agile hovertank, so a control scheme which combines both fast car-like driving along with hovercraft controls for strafing would be needed.

Oh and...

Halo and COD's console control schemes are so similar that it's a moot point. Oh, B is crouch instead of clicking the left stick, big deal. (Devs who don't include a "legacy" stick option should be flayed and burned at the stake, though. No one should have to relearn ten years of muscle memory just because of lazy devs.)

Malinku said:

They need to allow for custom control mapping so this debate can end.

This too. It's not hard and it's not confusing to the player. The TimeSplitters series was great about this; you could completely customize the control scheme, including changing the stick functions while zoomed. That's one thing that even the legacy control scheme in Halo doesn't get right.

As for playing Doom on a console, the PSX version's controls are surprisingly good. That should apply to all versions with strafe buttons. DSDoom has that going for it, but it hardcodes the weapon switch button to Y and its touch screen support, which should let you use the d-pad/face buttons for strafing, is abysmal.

What is the Call of Doodie control scheme, anyway?

A guy at work convinced me to try Borderlands on Xbox. I watched the cutscenes, started the tutorial, killed 2 guys, ran out of ammo and died. And haven't touched it in the month since. I can't imagine how anyone can enjoy controlling an FPS with a gamepad.

I'm guessing it's training and maybe learning early. I learned mouse and keyboard controls at an early age, and find them flawless now; I also learned Halo controls in my teens, and got very good at it. Now, FPSes feel great whichever way I play them, but when I use a controller on PC games, I think there's a reduction in accurracy (and maybe acceleration, since pressing a forward button goes faster than moving a stick forward), but it's still plenty fun.

The major advantage for gamepads seems to be the hundreds of movement speeds of the joystick, as opposed to the sprint/stop of keyboard movement. Though in precise wads like Jumpmaze though, keyboard works much better, so maybe joystick movement isn't superior, or I'm too used to keyboard

Playing an FPS on a console isn't that hard, you just have to get used to it. I think the console controls are better for racing games than anything else

qoncept could've said:

A guy at work convinced me to try Borderlands on PC. I watched the cutscenes, started the tutorial, killed 2 guys, ran out of ammo and died. And haven't touched it in the month since. I can't imagine how anyone can enjoy controlling an FPS with a mouse and keyboard.

New control methods take some getting used to? Shocking!

Dragonsbrethren said:

New control methods take some getting used to? Shocking!

I've played through FPSs with a game pad and it still feels like shit, regardless.

Dragonsbrethren said:

New Inherently inferior control methods take some getting used to always fucking suck? Shocking!

FTFY

I just know that I learned Mouse and Keyboard at 5 years old, and gamepads in my teens, which may explain the superiority of Mouse and keyboard for most of us. The importance of early exposure to a skill has to be considered, not just the fact that "what I've always used is the best, new devices won't give a fun or efficient experience".

This isn't a case where all devices are created equal and someone just happens to be attached to a particular one because it was the first one they used. Input devices, like many other things, have pros and cons. A good example here is the flight simulator joystick Maes talked about. Try using that in online DM game. Everyone else will be SR50 or rocket-jumping all over the map (or whatever "tricks" the FPS in question has) and you'll be left in the dust. It's the same way with other games: playing Arkanoid with keyboard sucks, but trackball is ideal (because trackball allows quick acceleration, and with keyboard you're at linear speed).

In my case, I started playin Doom with default keyboard controls. Then a year or so later learned about the keyboard/mouses combo, tried it, and found navigation and freedom of movement much improved. I mean, I could tell immediately that yes, this method has tremedous potential. But I don't get that same kind of feeling when playing with gamepad, in fact it feels at least as clumsy as the default keyboard setup. But I really like gamepads for platform games, shoot 'em ups, and that sort of thing.

Kinda unrelated, but I remember finding a PacMan arcade machine that used a trackball instead of a joystick. I can only assume the cabinet was one of those recycled ones from other games before being converted to another.

qoncept said:

I can't imagine how anyone can enjoy controlling an FPS with a gamepad.

I don't think anyone could seriously contend that a gamepad is as good as a mouse for any fast-paced FPS (amongst other kinds of games). But there's one advantage to using a gamepad that, in my opinion, eclipses all the advantages in looking and aiming that comes with using a traditional PC control scheme: being able to sit back or lay down in total comfort.

In the end, the best control scheme for a given task is given by eliminations and simplifications, and by assumptions/facts on human body dynamics and ergonomics.

E.g. it wouldn't be a good idea to map a helicopter's cylic control (controls flight balance + direction in two dimensions, one of the most critical controls) to the pilot's feet using pedals, since it requires constant, rapid and yet precise and smooth adjustments.

Sometimes, ergonomy might be the same but the mental mapping may be totally different: in the field of RC flight, while control mapping to two levers is natural enough, there are however several different "schools of thought" and control schemes:

Left stick     Right Stick     Mode
------------------------------------
Pitch and Yaw  Speed and Roll  1
Speed and Yaw  Pitch and Roll  2
Pitch and Roll Speed and Yaw   3
Speed and Roll Pitch and Yaw   4

Some are better than others for certain tasks, e.g. I find Mode 2 more well rounded for helicopter hovering, while plane flyer might find Mode 1 more powerful. However, they all use lightweight control sticks that are controlled by fingers, aka the fastest and more precise way possible for the human body, and not e.g. feet or ham fists.

Gamepads have the disadvantage that they put a critical control (2D direction) on the thumb alone of the LEFT hand, which is the less coordinated for most people. It simply cannot compare with the speed and precistion of 3 coordinated fingers on a WASD key arrangement, or of a traditional arcade stick used with a pinch technique by the gamer's good hand. No degree of training can change the bodily mechanics or rules of ergonomics, unless you're a freak of nature or have a handicap and you function better with a particular control scheme and not with the "conventional" one.

Maes said:

Gamepads have the disadvantage that they put a critical control (2D direction) on the thumb alone of the LEFT hand, which is the less coordinated for most people. It simply cannot compare with the speed and precistion of 3 coordinated fingers on a WASD key arrangement, or of a traditional arcade stick used with a pinch technique by the gamer's good hand. No degree of training can change the bodily mechanics or rules of ergonomics, unless you're a freak of nature or have a handicap and you function better with a particular control scheme and not with the "conventional" one.

You don't even need to use your good hand on an arcade stick, it'll still be more accurate and faster than your thumb on a pad is. Plus, on the topic of fighting games, being able to use multiple fingers on the buttons is much better than having one thumb for four face buttons on a pad. :P

I grew up playing both a keyboard & mouse and a gamepad since my preteens so I'm use to almost every fps control setup for the majority of both PC and Xbox 360 fps games I own so far.

When i use a mouse and keyboard i feel like i am 100% in control of even the smallest or most precise movements, ala Quake strafe/circle jumping and plasma climbing.
When i use a gamepad, i feel like i am at the mercy of the controls -- my brain is telling me that i can do something, but because of the controls i can't. Frustration ensues.
Also, auto-aim or aim-compensation because of the shoddy control = blech.

There hasn't been any game on any console using any controller, ever, that i have felt i had as much control over as a heavily control-based game such as Quake 3/live and a mouse/keyboard combo.

For all those claiming that a gamepad is just as viable as keyboard + mouse: would you ever go against keyboard + mouse players on equal terms (ha!) in a deathmatch, even if you felt you attained the most perfect mastery of gamepad controls as is humanly possible? Or, alternatively, would you compete in a speedrunning category using nothing but the gamepad (except maybe a "gamepadders only" category)?

My proposal? Organize a "gamepadders league" on Skulltag or whatever, and study the game patterns and tactics that will develop. I'm sure they will be very different than mouse games. Then, organize a "mouse vs gamepad" game with proper referees etc., the results should be interesting....

Maes said:

For all those claiming that a gamepad is just as viable as keyboard + mouse

No one claimed that, because everyone knows it's not. The superiority of a mouse doesn't stop me from enjoying FPS games on consoles, though.

Edit: Keyboarders vs. gamepads might be interesting, though.

Dragonsbrethren said:

No one claimed that, because everyone knows it's not.

Not in this thread, maybe, but there have been countless others where it has been brought up for "debate", though it was like "debating" whether a Special Olympics athlete could, through sheer willpower and persistence, ever compete on equal terms with regular athletes.

Dragonsbrethren said:

Edit: Keyboarders vs. gamepads might be interesting, though.

With a modern gamepad control scheme I'm almost certain any keyboarder would be beat. Digital controls are just not suitable for pitch and yaw (all though you can get surprizingly skilled using just the keyboard in Doom, but that's mostly because of auto-aim I think).

If I was playing Doom online as much as I used to I would take just about anyone on the gamepad vs. keyboard+mouse challenge. I don't think _most_ people are skilled enough with keyboard+mouse to actually gain a significant advantage over a skilled gamepad user. Not to mention gamepad users can SR50+Turn simultaneously. ;) (This of course would not apply to speed running where indeed the speed of axis input will make a significant difference.) My brother was even experimenting with some keyboard+joystick control schemes before he became busy with other stuff.

Blzut3 said:

... Not to mention gamepad users can SR50+Turn simultaneously. ;)

Nyaack! The cat's outta the bag! I thought that was just my own secret I found out with my 360 controller and joy2key setup. But even using that, I still couldn't beat my keyboard/mouse abilities (in Jumpmaze at least). I also tried out a mouse+ left thumbstick control setup, but I haven't gotten used to it yet to say if it's better than a mouse+ keyboard.

Blzut3 said:

With a modern gamepad control scheme I'm almost certain any keyboarder would be beat.

Maybe a novice one, if the average performance of keyboard-using beat-em-up games vs gamepad users is of any indication.

Gamepads suffer from the aforementioned problem of placing two very precision-critical and multiple-keyed controls only on the thumbs of one's hands, while a good keyboard with a strategically chosen & personalized layout can challenge even users of arcade sticks (which would be the best possible input method for beat-em-up games, especially if adjusted for left/right handedness). For FPS games, the same button-coordination skills apply to some degree (if playing by keyboard only)

Jeez, all I meant to talk about was why newbie consolefags were critical of Halo button layouts as opposed to CoD button layouts, I never meant it to get into the realm of Doom keyboarder vs. gamepad vs. WASD + mouse. Perhaps this would've been more suited to the Doom 3/4 forums, but I thought it was universal enough to be outside of those. I just want to know what's so "outdated" about Halo button layouts as opposed to CoD layouts, they both work for the gameplay they were designed for. CoD's were designed around combat, Halo's were designed around mobility.

Maes said:

For FPS games, the same button-coordination skills apply to some degree (if playing by keyboard only)

Try playing a game of instagib with the keyboard only. I don't think digital pitch/yaw controls allow enough fine movement to even compete in the long term. This does not necessarily apply to fighting games which do not have pitch/yaw. In other words, I think the advantage of certain controller types can be greatly influenced by the number of degrees of movement as well as the type of those degrees.

For lateral (I think that's what it would be called) movement, it is rare to be in a position that isn't maxing out some axis, so digital vs. analog makes little difference there. I would agree at that point the speed of input could provide an advantage.

Doom's keyboard controls are ideal for maps where you mostly run forward or navigate quickly without the need to aim precisely with split-second accuracy at all times.

In fact, there's at least one record-holding speedrunning (sorry, can't recall the name) who's well-known for being a pure keyboarder, so perhaps for certain particular situations, pure keyboard controls have an advantage. But no matter how good they are, the mouse comes as an upgrade to the keyboard, allowing almost all of the speed + uncanny aiming accuracy + positioning speed.

IMO any control scheme has to make a compromise between ease to use, obtainable accuracy and achievable speed.

"Ease to use" is hard to quantify, but I'd say it's about using the less different devices with the most explicit inputs, so mouse + keyboard would "lose" this round to pure keyboard, pure mouse and pure gamepad, as it map controls very compactly in two devices: the keyboard & mouse WASD config looks a lot like a Mode 1 RC flight controller ("throttle" and "aileron" to the left, "pitch" and "yaw" to the right). Accuracy and speed are the best with this config, which is why it kicks so much ass in MP.

On the converse, a gamepad is much more explicit and diluted, with separate levers for pitch etc., which might be less confusing for a newbie (thus "easier", if you don't need it), but not as efficient (have to reach for an extra control every time). It might come natural for console players, but because of the way it maps controls, it sacrifices speed and a great degree of accuracy.

Keyboard-only is an intermediate situation: it allows mapping certain controls efficiently (at least for styles of maps that allow "driving" through them), but it's tricky to find an efficient strafing scheme that can compete with mouse + WASD. IMO, in most situations it would beat the gamepad on learning effort parity. It has a bit better "ease to use" compared to mouse +keys, but can only match its accuracy and speed under certain fairly restrictive conditions.

Mouse-only tries to map way too many controls in one device which lacks enough inputs to begin with, plus it maps a critical control (fw/back movement) to an unstable axis (the y-axis), making it fidgety and imprecise to work with. It's really a last-resort control method, if you happen to have just one hand (and yes, I know the unfortunate implications behind this...). It's neither easy, nor fast, nor accurate (except maybe for maps where catwalking with pixel-width precision is critical...aka none of them).