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Ladna

Ultra-Feminist Propaganda

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Doom Juan said:

No, the majority of people aren't Marxists.

Yeah because they're aren't educated. It's easier to manipulate the uneducated motley cattle compared to those who are able to compose independent thought. Duh?

And I'm not equating Marxism as communism, but rather, a critique of Capitalism. There needs to be more regulation and understanding of differences for Capitalism to be able to function for human needs.

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Yeah because they're aren't educated. It's easier to manipulate the uneducated motley cattle compared to those who are able to compose independent thought. Duh?


So much stupid in so little words. Let me guess - first year college student?

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Phml said:

So much stupid in so little words. Let me guess - first year college student?

I would answer this, only provided you'd give a honest answer of your own. Do please make clear of what is stupid to my generalised answer. After all, that is the point of discussion. But do remember, I am merely making clear stupid points for this person who persists on questioning me.. At the moment, I am rather drunk and very impatient. Perhaps, it isn't the time for me to elaborate complex arguments to avoid troll responses like yours. But hey, I gotta learn!

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Joshy said:

At the moment, I am rather drunk and very impatient


Has anyone else noticed that this guy is always 'drunk'?

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Doom Juan said:

Has anyone else noticed that this guy is always 'drunk'?

stop that, seriously. stop the shitposting right now.

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The idea there's an invisible hand manipulating the unwashed masses falls flat on its face for many reasons today, in most western countries.

School is mandatory up until a certain age. Economic studies and hard data show individuals with college-level education or above generate value (that is, they produce more goods and services than they consume), whereas undereducated people fall on the opposite end of the spectrum, with the state having to step in - not necessarily directly, but indirectly due to equal usage of government-provided resources (i.e. running water, electricity, roads...) without generating as much value (and paying as much taxes) as their higher educated peers. Homelessness is the worst case scenario for society, as having someone on the street actually costs more than giving them a free home, due to the frequent emergency room trips such a "lifestyle" unfortunately entails. Beyond that, in the current job market there is a shortage of high-skilled workers, whereas there are too many low-skilled workers. There is no reason for capitalism to encourage keeping people in the dark, as it is counterproductive. Some experts have even put forward the idea to pay kids for good grades in school, as a long-term investment for society as a whole.

Information flows more freely than ever, by orders of magnitude compared to a mere two decades ago. Anyone with an Internet connection (provided they don't live in China...) has more knowledge wealth available at their fingertips than what an entire library would hold. Better yet, that information comes from many sources and many languages, leaving people to expose themselves to as many viewpoints as possible rather than staying in their bubble.

The idea of education as a binary proposition, where you've either went through college or are uneducated, is restrictive and attributes a holy character to something that shouldn't have any (not that anything should ever do). Teachers are human beings, just like everyone else, with their own perspective and subjectivity. What people study on their way to diplomas wasn't generated organically by some supernatural entity or overwhelming force, but by other human beings; and even hard sciences like mathematics are defined through conventions and built on over the years, sometimes with mistakes identified and corrected. When talking about social sciences, it is critical to recognize university is itself a bubble.

The whole notion of an educated man itself is a deterrent to further intellectual progress, as if education was an endgoal, a final point, and as if you reached it because society told you so. Nobody should stop acquiring knowledge by their twenties. Everyone should be wiser at 40 than they were at 30. Learning is something anyone should hopefully do their whole life, not until they get a diploma - which is nothing but a sheet of paper proving (often with very relative accuracy) you are able to do certain things. Likewise, knowledge isn't a progress bar with a definite start and an end. To assume everyone educated would share the same opinions and come to the same conclusions, and that anyone disagreeing is uneducated, is to make the above assumptions - that there is a definite end, or at least checkpoint in a straight line, and that you have personally reached it and can't possibly learn anything more on the topic. It shuts off conversation, and frankly, it's a little arrogant as it assumes everyone who disagrees with you is at a lower level in this hypothetical pyramidal way in which knowledge would be structured.

By definition, independent thought can't be agreeing with what other people said alone, and according too much importance to institutional education can be particulary pervasive in that regard. The reason I implied you might be a first-year college student is because the point of view you expressed is typical of first-year college students. Generally, there's more social pressure and biological reasons than independent thought involved in such opinions. People tend to be in their early twenties by then, a phase of their life at which it's easy to get riled up about old men ruling the world with nefarious purposes, to get passionate about being defenders of good and truth against evil and ignorance, and perhaps to idly dream about how much things could be better if only "we" were in charge. It's nowhere near as thrilling to admit we live in systems that are working decently, that overall have brought improvement to most people's lives over the years, and to realise many of our problems come from incompetency rather than malice, or from a practical inability to accomplish conflicting goals. Revolution gets your blood pumping, a quick burst of action with obvious consequences. Amelioration isn't as much fun, slow and continuous work resulting in little you can observe. It's understandable why people like to feel the first way, but today, in most western countries the world works the second way - simply because there isn't any overarching oppressor left to be toppled, just improvements to be made. It might be boring, but as far as I'm concerned it beats living in a mudhut and dying of a violent death before reaching adulthood.

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dew said:

stop that, seriously. stop the shitposting right now.


It's a valid point.

Joshy is always going on about how drunk he is when he's posting all this politically immature drivel, and I think that ought to be taken into account.

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Doom Juan said:

Joshy is always going on about how drunk he is when he's posting all this politically immature drivel, and I think that ought to be taken into account.

you registered here in august, what would you know about "always"? two people continued to argue with your "mature" opinions without running headfirst against a wall or descending into dismissive insults (like i did, sadly). of these two people you called ladna a neuter and joshy a drunk. you suck.

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dew said:

you registered here in august, what would you know about "always"? two people continued to argue with your "mature" opinions without running headfirst against a wall or descending into dismissive insults (like i did, sadly). of these two people you called ladna a neuter and joshy a drunk. you suck.


People were the first to throw around insults, dismissing me as nothing more than a 'mysogonist' for not believing in the myth that western women are oppressed.

You can't have it both ways. You can't dismiss me as a 'mysogonist' and not expect me to dismiss you with insults of an equally vulgar nature.

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The topic of debate is feminism, misogyny and sexism. Them seeing you as a misogynist was derived from your opinion on said topic. Your labels, OTOH, have been completely unprovoked in one instance and plainly stupid in the other.

I may have to go 40oz on your ass in a minute.

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Doom Juan said:

People were the first to throw around insults, dismissing me as nothing more than a 'mysogonist' for not believing in the myth that western women are oppressed.

Doom Juan said:

The truth is that you're nothing short of a dolt, and you follow every facebook/popular fad with assurance of a sleepwalker. If anyone contradicts your viewpoints, they are placed in any 'ist' or 'ism' that you've picked up.

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Insults are bad. You shouldn't throw around insults mkay.

dew said:

(like i did, sadly)


Heh, you lasted longer out there than any sane person should have to put up with.

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Bringing up feminism is always a hot topic. Got the tendancy to quickly demonstrate just how sexist a lot of people are. But the discussions usually deteriorate into a pit of extreme positions where no actual dialogue can be had.

Also, a a note to Violator. I'm not sure if you were just trolling or if you actually believe what you said about female leaders. I just like to point out to you that a leader's capabilities doesn't lie in what their decisions end up being. But in their ability to make their people follow them in their pursuit. As someone already mentioned the holocaust. I might just as well go with the example of Hitler. Who was in spite of all his obvious flaws, an exceptional leader. His decision making, emotional stability and ultimate goals on the other hand is a different story.

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kristus said:

Also, a a note to Violator. I'm not sure if you were just trolling or if you actually believe what you said about female leaders. I just like to point out to you that a leader's capabilities doesn't lie in what their decisions end up being. But in their ability to make their people follow them in their pursuit. As someone already mentioned the holocaust. I might just as well go with the example of Hitler. Who was in spite of all his obvious flaws, an exceptional leader. His decision making, emotional stability and ultimate goals on the other hand is a different story.

I have to say, this comparison is probably not really furthering whatever idea you were trying to get across :P

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Doom Juan said:

You can't have it both ways. You can't dismiss me as a 'mysogonist' and not expect me to dismiss you with insults of an equally vulgar nature.


Oh, but they do expect just that. Insults, libel, or shit-talking that is leveled at you, as long as it originates from people on the side of the argument viewed as being "correct" by Doomworld mods, is considered totally appropriate behavior. You are not allowed to rebel against it, and if you do, you're called a "shit-poster".

Also, prepare to have many forum rockstars try to pull rank on you because you haven't spent the past 10 years posting here or because you haven't won a cacoward.

And if you happen to be an American who doesn't absolutely despise your country, you'll be called every derogatory name in the book. But mostly you'll be labeled a "troll". Because if you actually like America, by their logic you must be a troll.

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esselfortium said:

I have to say, this comparison is probably not really furthering whatever idea you were trying to get across :P

True, I realize now how it can be misconstrued.

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GHermann said:

And if you happen to be an American who doesn't absolutely despise your country, you'll be called every derogatory name in the book. But mostly you'll be labeled a "troll". Because if you actually like America, by their logic you must be a troll.

Hello Vordakk. Well at least this thread has done something useful by flushing you out. You did pretty well, managing not to give yourself away for 7 whole posts.

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GHermann said:

Oh, but they do expect just that. Insults, libel, or shit-talking that is leveled at you, as long as it originates from people on the side of the argument viewed as being "correct" by Doomworld mods, is considered totally appropriate behavior. You are not allowed to rebel against it, and if you do, you're called a "shit-poster".

Also, prepare to have many forum rockstars try to pull rank on you because you haven't spent the past 10 years posting here or because you haven't won a cacoward.

And if you happen to be an American who doesn't absolutely despise your country, you'll be called every derogatory name in the book. But mostly you'll be labeled a "troll". Because if you actually like America, by their logic you must be a troll.

Uhhhh, no? If you make decent posts, you'll get decent posts in return regardless of its contents. Simple. No need for Doomworld paranoia here.

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Phml said:

Economic studies and hard data show individuals with college-level education or above generate value (that is, they produce more goods and services than they consume), whereas undereducated people fall on the opposite end of the spectrum, with the state having to step in - not necessarily directly, but indirectly due to equal usage of government-provided resources (i.e. running water, electricity, roads...) without generating as much value (and paying as much taxes) as their higher educated peers. Homelessness is the worst case scenario for society, as having someone on the street actually costs more than giving them a free home, due to the frequent emergency room trips such a "lifestyle" unfortunately entails. Beyond that, in the current job market there is a shortage of high-skilled workers, whereas there are too many low-skilled workers. There is no reason for capitalism to encourage keeping people in the dark, as it is counterproductive. Some experts have even put forward the idea to pay kids for good grades in school, as a long-term investment for society as a whole.


All well and good, but there is one thing to consider here.

For who does it cost more when people are homeless? The state, that is to say, the taxpayers. Therefore, it is a public problem. And on the other hand, who benefits from homelessness? A few private interests here and there: the mafias which control drug trade and prostitution, the slumlords, and the corporations who can use the threat of unemployment and therefore poverty to keep wages low and even decrease them (while CEO pays skyrocket).

In other words, keeping people in the dark allows to transfer wealth from society at large to a comparatively small group of persons without decency or morality. Which is absolutely not counterproductive: it is the aim and objective of capitalism to allow people with a sizable capital of power to be able to increase it. "Money begets money".

Sure, for the welfare of the nation, it is horrible; but if you want welfare of the nation, you are some sort of communist. It's not like the nation needs welfare anyway; it only needs to have barely enough funds to maintain some repressive police force to prevent the poor from rebelling. Everything else can have its budget slashed. Then once it stops working, you can argue that public services are inefficient by nature and privatize them all. "Drown the beast".

This is the nature of capitalism as it is practiced today, especially in the US and EU.

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Phml said:

Economic studies and hard data show individuals with college-level education or above generate value (that is, they produce more goods and services than they consume), whereas undereducated people fall on the opposite end of the spectrum

What! You need a college education to move stuff down a production line, toss burgers or tell a customer "no, you don't look fat in that"?

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Gez said:

This is the nature of capitalism as it is practiced today, especially in the US and EU.

Playing devil's advocate here...

Some would argue that it's solely the fault of government and over-regulation that prevents the free market from policing itself. Don't like what a corporation is doing, don't buy their products and don't work there. And people would have the power to do that, if the government didn't create such a hostile environment for competition.

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Bucket said:

Playing devil's advocate here...

Some would argue that it's solely the fault of government and over-regulation that prevents the free market from policing itself. Don't like what a corporation is doing, don't buy their products and don't work there. And people would have the power to do that, if the government didn't create such a hostile environment for competition.


Breakfast Summer Camp

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Grazza said:

Hello Vordakk. Well at least this thread has done something useful by flushing you out. You did pretty well, not managing to give yourself away for 7 whole posts.

Well hot damn. I guess the guy can't stay away from arguments and longer-post discussions.

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