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Doom OG

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GreyGhost said:


The main issue I have with Castle Doom is that it obviously hadn't been playtested in all three target ports prior to release. The exaggerated vertical scale in the 6 maps I've played so far adds another layer of difficulty when using a port that lacks mouselook, with no shortage of situations where a player has problems seeing the enemy, let alone shooting them. [/B]


Very good point, thanks.

I designed it primarily through Risen3D, and then "retrofitted" it for the other ports. That was my mistake.

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Phobus said:

What really gets me about this thread is that he only spent 4 months working on his whole megaWAD and without much (if any) prior experience. He has a concept that people simply can not see (it's called "Castle Doom", not "The Cyberdemon's Castle" or something a bit more indicative). Unless you're speed mapping, have an awful lot of free time or are just damn good, making 32 levels in 4 months probably means the levels had about 8 hours or so each put into them (playtesting and all) and with no experience that's almost definitely going to make a lot of dull and bland maps that.

All of the talk about everything feeling oversized and the maps being bland probably should tell you something, even if individual reviews are upsetting you. What they're telling you is you need to put more time into your mapping if you want to impress people. Making 32 small, highly polished maps over a 4-month period would have been better practice by far. People have spent years (that's right, multiple) only to have their work trashed. Honestly, if you are after positive feedback, try spending one week making a good map. Or a month. Really put the time and effort into making it look nice, play well and actually convey the ideas you have, because so far you've made the classic newbie mistake of thinking you can get a great result first time, despite the fact your grasp of mapping isn't strong enough to present your ideas in a way that other people can see.

Of course, if you were being sensible, you'd be trying to impress yourself first, as this is a hobbyist art form and not worry about what other people say to begin with. You'll still impress yourself more with practice and experience, so the end result is the same.


Makes sense.

The only thing incorrect was 8 hours per map. I have a problem getting obsessed with things and I spent way longer than that on them.

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Fisk said:

That isn't the surprise. What really surprises me is a few perfectly intelligent individuals suggesting, laughably, that being required to register in any capacity for writing comments on idgames will solve anything, at all, ever. If your wad is decent, expect decent reviews. If it is of poor quality, expect lower-scored reviews.

I don't see how /idgames' anonymous review/rating system is at all a joke, albeit not a perfect system. There is a balance to be kept between usability and security as it relates to information systems, and being required to register or to be logged in is a step away from usability for no reason, or a "solution without a problem" if you will.

I dunno. I got a lot of downvote spam and flames for SpaceDM9 early on, and there's also been at least one case recently of a user going around downvoting and posting flames on all my wads after I losered him on the forums.

Bloodshedder ended up tossing out some massive number of spam votes/posts on SpaceDM9 after taking a look at it. It doesn't always happen that way, though, and authors aren't always going to know that they can ask to have it looked into.

The Encyclopedia Dramatica page for Doom has a link to the archive, labeled "Spam everything with zeros because you can't get banned there." That's the critical failing of the current system: when you invite abuse, you're probably going to get it.

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marysson said:

The only thing incorrect was 8 hours per map. I have a problem getting obsessed with things and I spent way longer than that on them.

In that case you definitely need more practice to get some time efficiency because everything I've seen so far just does not speak of time being well-invested.

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I got a few trollposts on my wad that ended up getting deleted, not that I cared that they were up there in the first place. At the end of the day it should come down to how YOU feel about your work. Don't let what someone else across the world thinks about your work get to you.

I kinda like the fact that someone can leave negative constructive feedback (even if it is wrapped in an angry package, heh) without caring about hurting my feelings, because sometimes they bring attention to flaws or things that you can improve on if you want to expand your style. When my next upcoming wad is released I guess I'll have to learn to suck it up.

Either that or you can just respond to every comment on idgames while rating your wad 5/5. ;P

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I don't see how /idgames' anonymous review/rating system is at all a joke, albeit not a perfect system.

I don't remember the details, but isn't there no ability to comment without rating and no ability for authors to post replies without rating their own work? Seriously, it's like some of you people never saw a flexible and accessible map archive front-end. Check out lvlworld for example, you've got ratings and comments separated, and ability to comment anonymously or make an account.

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I just want the archive to actually be an archive. Every wad, of any significance or merit, stored all together in one place and mirrored on several continents. Yet now, instead of being neutral, it is seen as some harsh eye of judgement, thanks to a web frontend and review/comment system set up by an unrelated website.

Given that requiring registration for commenting won't exactly help there, and also given how unpopular that idea seems to be, I apologise for suggesting it and for wasting everyone's time.

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RjY said:

Yet now, instead of being neutral, it is seen as some harsh eye of judgement, thanks to a web frontend and review/comment system set up by an unrelated website.

IMHO also because of Ty Busyman, his rules, and FTP server having a low connections limit. Many DM wads are not there - I suspect that's why.

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i played the first 11 levels and what i am about to say is completely honest.

First of all, I admire your ability to map. Level design is a complex, challenging talent that not many people have. You should definitely continue mapping; perhaps join a community project or build another solo mapset with testers or editors (no map untested is optimal). I tried mapping recently and it took me two weeks to make three rooms. I also have a scripted boss that I made back in 2005 that received a vomit rating.


However, I will also say that this map has much room for improvement. I found a lot of big areas with few monsters (under 100), and was able to mow through with little challenge. Usually I can't get through 11 maps in 1 playthrough, but with these maps it took me about 2-3 hrs. If I were to rate it, I'd give it a 2.5/5 at this point (Average).

I'd also like to point out that trolls are part of the internet. Check Post Hell and you'll see plenty of posts made by them. One thing I learned is part of being on a forum (especially a popular one like this) is there are people of all angles, and that includes trolls.

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Pure Hellspawn said:

i played the first 11 levels and what i am about to say is completely honest.

First of all, I admire your ability to map. Level design is a complex, challenging talent that not many people have. You should definitely continue mapping; perhaps join a community project or build another solo mapset with testers or editors (no map untested is optimal). I tried mapping recently and it took me two weeks to make three rooms. I also have a scripted boss that I made back in 2005 that received a vomit rating.


However, I will also say that this map has much room for improvement. I found a lot of big areas with few monsters (under 100), and was able to mow through with little challenge. Usually I can't get through 11 maps in 1 playthrough, but with these maps it took me about 2-3 hrs. If I were to rate it, I'd give it a 2.5/5 at this point (Average).

I'd also like to point out that trolls are part of the internet. Check Post Hell and you'll see plenty of posts made by them. One thing I learned is part of being on a forum (especially a popular one like this) is there are people of all angles, and that includes trolls.


Awesome, thanks for playing and for the feedback!

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Cynical said:

Comments

DIE YOU TROLL! Haha I kid I kid. It does seem that the WAD is certainly not your cup of tea, as it was designed to be that way. Cliffside Siege is one of my favourites in the WAD, although in retrospect I would've added some more health. I like the chaingunner/hellknight room bit, it forces you to run across the gap, and dealing with dangerous enemies in close proximity. Playing 'pop-in-pop-out' is pretty much punished in this mapset. And there are actually cover in the middle cliff after you obtain the yellow key; but it does depend quite a bit on how you play. I don't expect anyone to finish the mapset without dying, that's for sure.

You didn't like it, fair enough mate.

insanoflex312 said:

If the comment has any criticisms like "too many hitscanners" how can you call it trolling? Because you disagree? Or because of his score he gave? Maybe he really hated the wad.

My first impression was that it reeked of a rage-quit anger venting comment, that obviously showed that the player only played the first 7 maps (no offence intended). But considering he's invested his time explaining exactly why he didn't like it in this thread, I can understand his point of view better, and it becomes more reasonable, even though I heartily disagree with it. And I am very aware of what 'criticism' is, thank you very much. My maps wouldn't be as good (to me, at least) without all of the fantastic blunt criticisms I've received from the Doomworld community.

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@Joshy: If someone legitimately plays the first 7 maps of your wad and doesn't enjoy them, it's a bit silly to expect them to have to sit through all the remaining ones before they can voice a valid opinion. Unless the wad has been majorly backloaded, with all the worthwhile levels at the end (which would be a flaw worth complaining about anyway), after playing through seven maps and finding that none of them are enjoyable, most people probably would just call it quits.

I suppose the upside to what you're saying is that there would be far fewer negative reviews to pay attention to, since it's quite unusual for someone to waste their time playing through the entirety of a megawad that they hate ;)

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Joshy said:
Playing 'pop-in-pop-out' is pretty much punished in this mapset.

Out of curiosity, then what is the intended method of doing map 7? Those chaingunners to the left of the start will tear you up if you try to Rambo them instead of abusing the corner. I also have no idea how the center room is even possible without sitting against the bars and waiting for the chaingunners to come to you; sprinting to the Cyberdemon room leaves you with too little ammo, fighting in the center of the room gets you chewed up by the chaingunners, and the ammo is on the sides of the room, so you can't grab it while running to the Cyberdemon. Then, you've got the Revenants with no room to strafe, forcing you to abuse the corner at the bottom of the stairs.

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@Essel: Yeah, I was just thinking about that, and wasn't sure how I should take it. It is aggravating when they haven't played the rest of the maps I've worked really hard on, so initially I was thinking, 'don't judge a book by its first few pages dude!' But Doom doesn't work like that, heh. Not everyone likes their cup of tea with milk and sugar. :P

Cynical said:

Out of curiosity, then what is the intended method of doing map 7? Those chaingunners to the left of the start will tear you up if you try to Rambo them instead of abusing the corner. I also have no idea how the center room is even possible without sitting against the bars and waiting for the chaingunners to come to you; sprinting to the Cyberdemon room leaves you with too little ammo, fighting in the center of the room gets you chewed up by the chaingunners, and the ammo is on the sides of the room, so you can't grab it while running to the Cyberdemon. Then, you've got the Revenants with no room to strafe, forcing you to abuse the corner at the bottom of the stairs.

Ah map07, I was a real sadistic arsehole when I was making that one! Personally I would've done some changes if I could like removing a few chaingunners and adding some armour. Nevertheless, the chaingunners are certainly something to be wary of, and yes (I should've been more specific), some pop-in-out at some point is useful; but, a better way of putting it is that 'versatility' is rewarded (like Map05 for instance, where pop-in-out isn't really as helpful as running fast ahead).
How I do the start is I run up to the furthest right chaingunner (on the left side), and wait until the other chaingunners kill him, I pick up the chaingun and mow them all down. The way I play the middle room is I run around the corridors mowing down the chaingunners with the chaingun, while avoiding the hellknights' blobs (rinse and repeat if necessary). The revenants should not be a problem as you are equipped with rockets and plasma, you can easily run close up and firing with the plasma head-on, or eliminate them with a few rockets carefully from afar (there is enough room for strafing).

Here's a useful demo to watch, Map07 done by Tatsurd-cacocaco in 4:12, albeit maybe a bad example considering he's played the map a few times, and has some strategies planned in advance.

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j4rio said:

Hm. I haven't played map 7 of sod. So I tried to FDA. Those last archviles are a suck. :p

It's cool map and besides the ending it's perfectly beatable on first try if you don't suck.

http://filesmelt.com/dl/shith5.lmp

I guess I completely suck, because I tried this map over and over and over and over for over a week, and couldn't do it. I've made it to the final arachnotron battle (another fight, which, as near as I can tell, is completely luck-based) exactly four times; of those, one time I got stuck because an arachnotron didn't teleport in, one time I got blasted by the Arch-Viles that I didn't know were coming, and twice died to the arachnotrons.

Although, it is interesting to know that HMP and UV are literally identical. Nice job complaining about people playing everything on UV, and then not supporting skill levels!

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Cynical said:

I guess I completely suck, because I tried this map over and over and over and over for over a week, and couldn't do it. I've made it to the final arachnotron battle (another fight, which, as near as I can tell, is completely luck-based) exactly four times; of those, one time I got stuck because an arachnotron didn't teleport in, one time I got blasted by the Arch-Viles that I didn't know were coming, and twice died to the arachnotrons.

Although, it is interesting to know that HMP and UV are literally identical. Nice job complaining about people playing everything on UV, and then not supporting skill levels!

I had different players test different difficulty levels; why didnt you try IATYTD? It's fun for a 'gentler' playthrough. HMP and UV was not meant to be a lot different.

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Joshy said:

I had different players test different difficulty levels; why didnt you try IATYTD? It's fun for a 'gentler' playthrough. HMP and UV was not meant to be a lot different.

I dislike IATYTD because I don't like difficulty levels that screw with core mechanics. If I feel a map is too easy on UV, I won't try it on NM or with -fast, either.

I don't understand why you'd make HMP and UV so similar. Why not follow the Scythe/Scythe 2/AV/DVII standard of "HMP for the challenging but not-super-hard playthrough, UV for those who want to be murdered"? As it is, HMP feels redundant; might as well get some actual use out of it.

That said, I'm finally through stage 7 (learning about the blue armor secret from the demo let me get to the red door at 100 health; then I just saved the megasphere for the Arachnotrons). Thank god, it's over; now I can go seek therapy.

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I don't think my sense of UV or HMP back then in 2009 was good to be honest. There are obvious differences in certain maps between UV and HMP though; just probably not as much for map07 and some other maps perhaps; which is why I'd recommend HNTR usually. My apologies; a glass of beer should be sufficient for therapy ;-)

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I actually did look at map 7 on HNTR, but the changes struck me as being really weird. Removing that pinkie at the start actually makes the level harder IMO (it's easy to use him as cover from the chaingunners while you wait for the first two to start infighting), and removing one of the Revenants from the little shack made no sense to me; has anyone ever had any trouble with that fight? Then you go forward a bit... and the chaingunners are there, right on cue, like on the other skill levels.

It felt really odd that the easiest part of the level was made easier, an enemy that helps was removed, and the hard part was untouched.

Funny you mention beer; I'm having a Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale right now!

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TimeOfDeath said:

sodfinal has 4 stars, 147 votes and a cacoward. spacedm9 has 41 votes and 4.5 stars. These wads don't belong in this thread.

If you read my post, what I was saying was that something like half of the votes on SpaceDM9 were removed due to a massive amount of downvotes spammed at it by somebody in the first few weeks after its release. They're not there anymore. :P

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My cousin (I suspect) made a couple of troll posts on the archive when I left my computer logged into Doomworld. Apparently that's funny when you're a teenager. I was looking for maps to do proper reviews of. I know one was for a deathmatch map called School (or something). I actually felt that map had an impressive design for a single player map or a curio, albeit crap for deathmatch. So I apologise for that one if the author is still around. I think there were one or two others.

I guess I completely suck, because I tried this map over and over and over and over for over a week, and couldn't do it. I've made it to the final arachnotron battle (another fight, which, as near as I can tell, is completely luck-based) exactly four times; of those, one time I got stuck because an arachnotron didn't teleport in, one time I got blasted by the Arch-Viles that I didn't know were coming, and twice died to the arachnotrons.

I didn't really like this map but I got through the Arachnotron battle on my second go. I killed all the outdoors Mancs with plasma then killed the indoor ones with rockets. I beat the Arachnos by staying indoors when they beamed in, then using the plasma gun on the ones indoors, switching to rockets and SSG for the rest as they came in through the doorways. This made it ridiculously easy. Some of the most horrific slaughtermaps like AV's Demonic Hordes are simple if you find somewhere to hide.

As for the Viles, by this point in SoD you should be used to such shitty, you-will-die traps. I was diving for cover as soon as I hit the switch but only just made it by like a split second.

EDIT: Gameplaywise, this is nowhere near Alien Vendetta except for a few maps. Repeated teleport traps and over-use of shitty Arch-Vile traps kills some of the maps for me. Speed of Doom is generally good but the bad maps really stink. Some AV maps weren't much cop (notably Rubicon and Caco's Nest) but overall playability was much higher, except for the ones that drag on forever (Nemesis and Mishri Halek).

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Hey, marysson. I’ve been reading this thread, and even though I don’t have time to take on a megawad right now, I thought I’d do a God Mode looksee at the first few levels. Even though I didn’t play them, I can offer a few comments.

First, based on some of the posts, I wasn’t expecting much from the architecture. I was pleasantly surprised, but then, I like epic scope. I thought your designs were very good and your layouts looked like they would play quite well. Indeed, after running through the first 6 levels, I’m astonished that you could design so many good-looking maps so rapidly. Cheers, dude.

I could also understand some of the complaints. Large numbers of monsters, especially tough monsters in large, open areas, with more monsters sniping from above. Lots of what I call the “area-control monsters” – revvies and chaingunners – and I’m sure I’ll encounter arachnotrons in time. They control areas because they can either keep continual track of you, or they shoot homing rockets, obviously. Not sure say I wanna tackle these levels on UV. ;D

I objected to some of the elements in Map01, specifically the fenced-off edges on the moat and the unnatural teleport lines that prevent you from wandering around the edge of the castle. As a player, I strongly dislike artificial barriers to my movement, and nothing bugs me more in this respect than invisible impassable lines or teleports in open sectors. If you want to stop me from wandering the edge of your castle, put a wall there.

In one of the later levels – 5 or 6 – I was charging up one of the very steep staircases when I heard a chaingunner I couldn’t see. I played in Risen3D and wasn’t looking up, but I soon came face to face with the critter. This is where complaints about needing Mouselook come from.

It’s cheap to kill the player in a dark room by using a crushing ceiling with a massive width. Probably most players hate crushing ceilings. However, your outlook on design is yours. Back when mastodons roamed the earth and I was mapping for Realm Of Chaos, my design goal for UV was to kill the player 3 times in each level. I may not have achieved that, but it’s what I wanted to do. I would die many more times than that in your levels on UV, but if I don’t like that, there’s always HMP or even the ultimate shame of HNTR. ;D And this is Doom, after all, not Tickle Me, Elmo. If you wanna blow the player away by any means necessary, that’s your call, but be prepared for push-back and consider whether you want to alter your approach.

The matter of pushing switches to activate rapidly-rising staircases – you might have gone to the well too many times on that one.

Looking at your levels in DB2, they are much simpler than I expected. That means you got a lot of work out of your lines and sectors. Cheers, again.

This is all I can really say without actually playing the maps, and that won’t happen for awhile. Real Life, as they say. ;) But based on what I’ve seen, I want to see more.

My advice with the comments mirrors what others have said – take the constructive ones to heart and ignore the trolls. Indeed, be happy you even get comments. I put up my Disreali map in 1999 and it got its first comment a few weeks ago. Yeah, 13 years without a comment! :D Happily, it was a very positive review. I’ve also been happy with the comments on my new map, Elfkill. The reviewers pointed out serious technical flaws, so I fixed them. The whole process worked very well.
One final note – if you didn’t have your maps playtested by other Doomers, consider doing so in the future. Might be difficult to work out a schedule, but it could help sharpen your designs.

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I dont care about the thread topic, I just wanna talk about SoD. SoD map07 = kinda sucky tbh. Its by far the lamest map in the set, and I Find SoD to be...9,9 out of 10. And onaly AV is 10. Also I`m drunik, what kinda thraead is this. Whatever, cya

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Sometimes all you need to say is 'sux'. It's essentially a voting system, with a little extra room to expand on your vote if desired. But it's not required. You don't need to write an essay when you vote for the president. And if a WAD just makes you nauseous at how crappy it is you oftentimes don't want to revisit the memory to any degree just to articulate why it sucks.

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darkreaver said:

I dont care about the thread topic, I just wanna talk about SoD. SoD map07 = kinda sucky tbh. Its by far the lamest map in the set, and I Find SoD to be...9,9 out of 10. And onaly AV is 10. Also I`m drunik, what kinda thraead is this. Whatever, cya

Even though it's off-topic, I agree. SoD is not 10/10 worthy, maybe 7-8. Fantastic visuals let down by maps with dodgy and repetitive gameplay. But map 28 rocks.

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I remember MAP07 annoyed me too on my first playthrough. Unlike all other maps, this one was very cramped so it was difficult to use rocket launcher effectively and the chaingunners annoyed me a lot. But that was 2 years ago, I think I can beat it easily now.

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map07 is only challenging on UV-pistol start. oh and don't use the SSG in those cramped hallways leading to the ramparts - weren't the PG/RL pickups right in front of them enough of a hint?

MajorRawne said:

repetitive gameplay.

rubbish.

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