Nelson Mandela is dead.

Violence and torture against innocents and civilians is no longer despicable if you're fighting for a good cause?

Rayzik said:

Violence and torture against innocents and civilians is no longer despicable if you're fighting for a good cause?

Of course not, ask the Americans. Seriously, you can measure what's wrong and right all you like, but you can't deny the man brought about change that was wanted and needed in his part of the world. Action talks and bullshit walks.

I never said I denied it. I'm just saying he was not a saint, by any means, and people should stop acting as such.

I don't see people calling for his sainthood, just respectful well wishers, while you're having the olho gordo.

Watch the american media. They're having orgasms about it.

The ends justify the means. 'Nuff said.

I like to think the means justify the ends. Directed energy weapons are COOL!!

Technician said:

Dude, it's hard to paint the man as Gandhi when you bring up his past dealings in terrorism.

Gandhi spent some time in south africa and might be noted for his dislike of black people and his support of apartheid whilst there and afterwards.

He was also a pedophile.

Rayzik said:

Violence and torture against innocents and civilians is no longer despicable if you're fighting for a good cause?

Of course it is, though if you happen to be the victor it's your version of history that becomes the official record, so you can get busy with the whitewash.

I can't help feeling the South African government is stage-managing events in order to bask in Mandela's reflected glory, having done little in the last several years to differentiate themselves from other tinpot regimes in Africa. Why else would they have the funeral cortege trundle through the streets of Pretoria on three consecutive days like some macabre tourist attraction?

Quast said:

Gandhi spent some time in south africa and might be noted for his dislike of black people and his support of apartheid whilst there and afterwards.

Rayzik said:

Watch the american media. They're having orgasms about it.

American media also celebrate American troops. Maybe there's a pattern to be found there.

Jimothy said:

What a shame. He was one of the few human beings I didn't know, yet commanded my full respect.

R.I.P.

We all knew it was coming but yet it's still shocking

PS R.I.P Nelson

Actually, a guy I knew came back from SA and said that a lot of the black people there didn't like some of the more economic stuff under Mandela.

The date of the national memorial was well chosen, since it's human rights day.

Clonehunter said:
Actually, a guy I knew came back from SA and said that a lot of the black people there didn't like some of the more economic stuff under Mandela.

The Apartheid traded allowing blacks to vote for an economy in the hands of global finance (controlled mainly by Western powers) and local white millionaires and mine owners.

Considering the economic policies South Africa is subjected to, when one sees some of the world leaders at his memorial, one wonders whether they're there to secretly celebrate his death, rather than mourn it. British conservatives were keen defenders of the Apartheid and Mandela was considered a terrorist by the US until 2008 for his efforts to oust the Apartheid by force.

Bucket said:

Odd that there's so much love in this thread for the guy. If my libertarian acquaintances on Facebook were to be believed, Mandela is a murderous pinko statist dictator who is directly responsible for the sort of atrocities that would make Pol Pot break a cold sweat.

http://blog.eternalvigilance.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/NelsonMandela.jpg
Here he is standing next to Communist asshole Joe Slovo, and now his party is carrying out the same ideology seen in this photo. His party killed more black people during the struggle than the Apartheid regime did, his wife necklaced black people to scare them into supporting their cause.

myk said:

The date of the national memorial was well chosen, since it's human rights day.

Actually it wasn't that well chosen because I tried to go to the post office today to pick something up and it was closed. :P

Hunt on for fake 'signer' who stood metres from Obama:
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Fake-signer-stood-metres-from-Obama-at-Mandela-memorial-20131211

At one point a speaker mentioned the word "president" and the interpreter shaped his fingers into the "L" sign and put them on his forehead.

When asked about the interpreter, ANC spokesperson Jackson Mthembu said "I don't know this guy. He doesn't work for the ANC. It was a government event. Ask them,". Haha well last time I checked the ANC is our government? It was also good to see our predominantly black crowd boo the corrupt president... maybe there is hope after all.

DeathevokatioN said:

It was also good to see our predominantly black crowd boo the corrupt president... maybe there is hope after all.

I can only see South Africa getting worse and worse.

DeathevokatioN said:

At one point a speaker mentioned the word "president" and the interpreter shaped his fingers into the "L" sign and put them on his forehead.

It is probably a coincidence but that sign is actually 'leader' in NZSL (New Zealand Sign Language), or at least I did see people use that sign when I visited the place in the last few weeks. See video, I'm assuming there are variations of that sign where the flat hand is replaced by the American one-handed letter 'L' to signify L for leader.

Anyway, that fake interpreter deserves to be shot by Oscar Pistorius.

BaronOfStuff said:

What a true hero for freedom he was, with his bombing campaign and whatnot. Burn in hell you spiteful old cunt.

Even back in the 60s and probably even earlier Mandela repeatedly stated that he was against violence and that he wanted not a black-dominated society but one in which everyone has equal rights, in spite of massacres committed by the police during that time against blacks.

It was only later on when the Apartheid government slammed the door repeatedly in their faces and criminalized all opposition while the blacks continued to live in wretched conditions (basically state-sponsored suppression) that they've decided to resort to sabotaging government structures, such as bridges, police stations, etc. in retaliation for atrocities.

During that time, Mandela and some of his comrades were arrested and spent 27 years in prison on Robben Island. After that, the military wing of the ANC got very radical, leading to many atrocities committed on both sides especially during the 80s. However, since Mandela was in prison, he couldn't have had much influence on what was going on. As far as I know, for him, violence was always a last resort. Because they were still pushed to the brink and striked back, he and his comrades were branded as terrorists and thrown in jail. But their struggle was most certainly justified. If you push somebody hard and long enough, eventually they'll start pushing back.

As for Mandela's friendships with people such as Fidel Castro, these people have helped them in some ways or another during the struggle. So this was understandable, even though Mandela was later criticized for his own continued support of these countries.

Source: I'm South African and have done a bit of reading here and there. Feel free to correct me where you think I might have been factually wrong.

Kotzugi said:

It was only later on when the Apartheid government slammed the door repeatedly in their faces and criminalized all opposition while the blacks continued to live in wretched conditions (basically state-sponsored suppression) that they've decided to resort to sabotaging government structures, such as bridges, police stations, etc. in retaliation for atrocities.

And shopping malls and movie theaters.

Technician said:

I can only see South Africa getting worse and worse.

Yeah, well living conditions here are definitely getting worse, but I've been seeing a lot more resentment (rightfully) growing toward the ANC from the common man and the "blame Apartheid" excuse isn't working as well as it used to. It's a start. And hopefully more and more will start seeing who the real enemy is, so that we can stop infighting. It didn't help that our president spent over a hundred thousand dollars on renovating his pool, at our expense. :/

Kotzugi said:

Source: I'm South African and have done a bit of reading here and there. Feel free to correct me where you think I might have been factually wrong.

Cool!!!! I'm also South African! Where about in South Africa do you stay?

A friend shared this with me, haha.

Technician said:

And shopping malls and movie theaters.

Read for yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe#Military_campaign

There is no mention of soft targets until long after Mandela has been imprisoned (he was arrested in 1962 and sent to Robben Island in 1964).

You can find another interesting discussion here. Apparently he wasn't even charged with murder but with "sabotage, ordering munitions, recruiting young men for guerrilla warfare, encouraging invasion for foreign military units, and conspiring to obtain funds for revolution from foreign states". And the military wing (Umkhonto we Sizwe), in its whole decades-long history, did not kill more than a few dozen people, whereas the Sharpeville massacre committed by the SA police in 1960 killed 69 people, some of them children, with many people shot in the back while they were trying to run away. I think you can't blame people too much if things went a little out of hand after that, but you can blame the government of the day trying to cling to their cruel and outdated views and refusing any attempt for civilized debate for decades while the country burned and people got massacred on an almost daily basis.

DeathevokatioN said:

Cool!!!! I'm also South African! Where about in South Africa do you stay?

:) At the moment I stay in PE but in the next few months I may start on a job elsewhere in the country (don't know yet but there are a few options). How about you?

DeathevokatioN said:

A friend shared this with me, haha.

Saw this one on FB today (sorry if it's a bit large).

And now for the interpreter's excuses!

This one made me almost fall off my chair laughing!! It takes serious courage to go onto stage like and this. :))))))))))))

Kotzugi said:

:) At the moment I stay in PE but in the next few months I may start on a job elsewhere in the country (don't know yet but there are a few options). How about you?

I lived there for a while, people can't drive for shit there. It's one of the most peaceful and relaxed places in South Africa with many breathtaking viewpoints, but holy shit you have maniacs on the road, everyone drives like they need the toilet haha.

ATM I'm studying in Johannesburg, still have a year or so left then hopefully I can travel Europe and if I can find a place that's worth immigrating to I'll become an illegal alien. :)

DeathevokatioN said:

This one made me almost fall off my chair laughing!! It takes serious courage to go onto stage like and this. :))))))))))))

Seen it today. It's pure gold. :)

DeathevokatioN said:

I lived there for a while, people can't drive for shit there. It's one of the most peaceful and relaxed places in South Africa with many breathtaking viewpoints, but holy shit you have maniacs on the road, everyone drives like they need the toilet haha.

ATM I'm studying in Johannesburg, still have a year or so left then hopefully I can travel Europe and if I can find a place that's worth immigrating to I'll become an illegal alien. :)

I don't find the driving so bad, although it's true that there's a heck of a lot of drunk driving at night, you often see poles and stuff run over and one evening a car landed on its roof in front of our house (sliding like a hundred meters), two very drunk guys got out but amazingly they were sort of OK. I usually find the driving worse in bigger cities or at least more aggressive.

Been to Europe myself, in fact spent over five years in Holland and it's great except for the weather of course, haha. Good luck bru!

According to Etv news, that signer also has an interesting criminal history including robbery, murder and rape charges.

link: http://www.enca.com/south-africa/interpreter

Jesus, he also did sign language at a hate speech rally.. welcome to South Africa...

Siggi said:

According to Etv news, that signer also has an interesting criminal history including robbery, murder and rape charges.

With that sort of background, he probably has influential friends within the ANC in order to be allowed anywhere near an official function.

DeathevokatioN said:

Jesus, he also did retarded hand gibberish at a hate speech rally.. welcome to South Africa...

FTFY :)