Did Final Doom suck the Grand Potato?

Having played TNT, Plutonia, the Master Levels and PSX Final Doom, I've come to a conclusion. Final Doom was not as good as the original Doom.

I don't like Plutonia much because it's just one level after another of Chaingunner spam, grey walls and blood floors. It seems like the only skill involved in its creation was to simply take the most dangerous enemies and deploy a ton of them right in your face.

TNT is not that bad, but it was missing the original magic for me.

The Master Levels have some amazing maps and some that are boring, confusing and frustrating.

PSX Final Doom certainly fared better, with all the confusing maps being cut and less reliance on Chaingunners and Revenants. The cream of the Master Levels were included, but PlayStation players got rather screwed, with no secret levels and only 30 maps, where Doom had 59. The Final Doom maps seemed to have somewhat less personality too - they were more detailed, a bit creepier, much tougher, not as good to blast through for stress relief. The new music was amazing though, some of Hodges' creepiest efforts.

What are your opinions on the various episodes/versions of Final Doom? Is the chaingunner spam the only way new maps could have challenged experienced players? Is the overall quality as high as the original, or does it bother you that Romero et al created fewer of the maps?

MajorRawne said:

It seems like the only skill involved in its creation was to simply take the most dangerous enemies and deploy a ton of them right in your face.

Weakling.

The only good Doom games are Doom and Doom 3. Especially Doom 3.

Final doom is superior to doom/doom2 wads because it's more challenging and fun.

Well.. Final doom was good mostly because you knew what you were getting. It was made for people who loved doom and wanted more of it. There's a point where youve played enough of the game where the reason you're still playing it is for the game play. Not the narrative or the ambience or what have you.

its for seasoned doomers who got through doom 1 and 2 too fast and wanted more of a challenge. I'd think final doom certainly succeeds in that.

It was okay in my opinion, but not as enjoyable as any other Doom game. Maybe that's just because I found myself getting stuck every so often, especially in TNT.

TNT is (In my opinion) the best Doom IWAD by far, Plutonia however can go fuck itself with an on fire cactus.

j4rio said:
Final doom Plutonia is superior to doom/doom2 wads because it's more challenging and fun.

challenging = YES
fun = NO

Plutonia designers have approached chaingunner, revenant and high-HP monster placement in such a way that disgusts me and I can't enjoy the game. Even though I'd maybe (hardly) manage it, but I don't feel like I want to.

TNT is mostly fun to play, but the leveldesign often feels... not really unprofessional, but different from the Doom or Doom2 one so much that it seems weird to me, unnatural, not that compact, sometimes ugly.

I like my D1/D2 more. Nostalgia is probably the reason, but I don't see it as a problem. Today, I appreciate nice leveldesign and balanced and challenging gameplay in maps, and I'm more satisfied if it resembles the original IWADs and not Final Doom.

These threads are depressingly monotonous and uninspired. It's like a conspiracy of weekend warriors to bore everyone into admitting that challenge is unfun.

Plutonia is the superior IWAD imo. the layout, level design, enemy placement and ammo balance are much more appealing to me than TNT which for me was a piece of shit. Plutonia's new texture set and sky really fitted to the levels and the music from doom1 was a perfect fit(MAP11 heh).

Oh and by the way, plutonia enemy count is much smaller compared to TNT and doom2.

I used to hate Plutonia, but for last 5 years it is the only iwad I have replayed several times. Plus just a few maps from TNT, no more than five.

I avoid Doom2 at all costs, the only outstanding map was Abandoned Mines. Hello, this is MAP06. Let's introduce a revenant here. This is MAP11 - let the 1st arch-vile appear, and we shall not put more than 20 of them in the remaining maps even on UV...

Wishing MajorRawne similar metamorphosis.

Plutonia is the best resource IWAD, the only downside is that they took out FIREBLU. As far as gameplay, different people like different things, what a concept! Couldn't agree with dew more.

dew said:

These threads are depressingly monotonous and uninspired. It's like a conspiracy of weekend warriors to bore everyone into admitting that challenge is unfun.

Threads don't have to be always inventive, because their purpose is to let people speak their mind however they want to.
In other words, I agree with what you literally state in your post above, but I don't imply that there's anything bad.
Personally for me, a challenge that manages to be reasonable and satisfying is really fun. My perception of "reasonable" and "satisfying" is partially influenced by my memories though. Good memories about Doom 1 and 2, bad memories about Plutonia, and not enough good memories about TNT. Visual setting and design is also making a part of the "satisfying" for me.
I just think I've got allergic to Plutonia style, kind of. That's not to say I won't ever touch it or enjoy its gameplay, but due to my experience, I'm more likely not to.

I enjoyed TNT more than Plutonia. TNT remained challanging without taking the piss. Although, I have to admit, I do give a "really?" expression to anyone who says that Cyberden and Go 2 It are unbeatable in UV.I managed it, and I'm a complete nub at this game.

FreddBoy said:

Although, I have to admit, I do give a "really?" expression to anyone who says that Cyberden and Go 2 It are unbeatable in UV.I managed it, and I'm a complete nub at this game.

I found Go 2 It easier than Antichrist to be honest.

vdgg said:

Wishing MajorRawne similar metamorphosis.

Given that he was saying pretty much the same thing twelve years ago, that seems unlikely.

Overall, I actually prefer Final Doom over Doom 2. Both IWADs (especially Plutonia) took Doom 2's additional monsters and gameplay mechanics and did more with it than its base. Of course, TNT had some awful music (MAP02, ugh), sometimes the atmosphere was a little 'meh,' and both IWADs had the occasional butt-ugly texture. Doom 2 had better textures, and in some cases atmosphere, but I don't enjoy its maps as much as Final Doom.

Part of me wants to say the PSX version trimming it down to the best maps is an improvement, but the completionist/perfectionist in me demands all 64 maps.

Sodaholic said:

TNT had some awful music (MAP02, ugh)

Doom95?

Oh man I remember Map 02's music in Doom 95 on my old PC. It was like 2/3 of the instruments were cut out haha.

Final Doom was awesome. Bigger fan of Plutonia than TNT. Final Doom as a whole made me feel like level-wise Doom II was quickly over shadowed.

Plutonia feels atmost, but not quite, like a Thy Flesh Consumed sequel on hard mode. It's more repetitive though, maybe because it was created by just two people. That's what you get when a megawad is made by one or two guys, sometimes.

scifista42 said:

challenging = YES
fun = NO

Plutonia designers have approached chaingunner, revenant and high-HP monster placement in such a way that disgusts me and I can't enjoy the game. Even though I'd maybe (hardly) manage it, but I don't feel like I want to.

You mean you are still sucking too much to be able to embrace the challenge to the point that you actually found it fun? A possible hint to improve your doom gaming experiences - suck it up and challenge yourself a bit. You can thank me later.

I think that TNT MAP02's music is a good composition, it's just that the bass instruments are 3000% louder than they should be and there's too much hard left/right panning.

plums said:

I think that TNT MAP02's music is a good composition, it's just that the bass instruments are 3000% louder than they should be and there's too much hard left/right panning.

Sounds like the average .MOD to me. Now, how they could do it with midi....I don't remember Final Doom's music much, TBQH. I do have a distinct feeling of it sounding like early 90s acid rave, for some reason, though O_o

TNT02 is one of my favourite Doom midis and I think my absolute faavourite fast paced one. I've heard some versions are better than others or some ports play it better but Ikve not heard a version I dislike so I don't get what the hate is for.

It's not like I love all tracks either. I've never been keen on Doom II MAP04 and E3M8 does not soundy Doomy to me for example.

Yeah, I used Doom95 for ages and disliked the l o n g drone of the first note on Evilution's Map02.

Then I watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MWAggvK1f4&list=PL0766D7926B984022] this video and thought they had just remixed the tune or something.


...Then I played the TNT level on Zandronum and knew something was up.

dew said:

These threads are depressingly monotonous and uninspired. It's like a conspiracy of weekend warriors to bore everyone into admitting that challenge is unfun.

People who pretend to like challenges only do so because of the feeling of accomplishment when they beat the game. They're miserable otherwise, much like junkies willing to do anything for their next high. Tru gamers know the right way to have fun in a video game is to go from point A to point B seamlessly. Ideally, while being told a powerful story about social issues; otherwise that's just time you're not getting back.

Da Werecat said:

Doom95?

I haven't actually played Final Doom all that much since I first got it, and it was before I knew of source ports. What I remember through Doom 95 was instruments carrying on for far too long, as well as less notes being played. Listening to it again in a proper engine, it's actually a pretty good song, even if rather repetitive.

Phml said:

People who pretend to like challenges only do so because of the feeling of accomplishment when they beat the game. They're miserable otherwise, much like junkies willing to do anything for their next high. Tru gamers know the right way to have fun in a video game is to go from point A to point B seamlessly. Ideally, while being told a powerful story about social issues; otherwise that's just time you're not getting back.

I'm pretty sure it is, but this is sarcasm, right? The single player campaigns of too many modern AAA games amount to little more than FMVs rendered in real time, allowing you to pause the movie to "explore" what little area you can before moving on to the next scene. When gameplay is subservient to a plot that may or may not suck, it fails to be fun, and it should've just been a movie if the plot is worth telling, otherwise don't bother even making it, as it fails to satisfy both aspects. Story's fine, but in games it should be the icing, not the cake.

j4rio said:

You mean you are still sucking too much to be able to embrace the challenge to the point that you actually found it fun? A possible hint to improve your doom gaming experiences - suck it up and challenge yourself a bit. You can thank me later.

I feel a need to defend myself. I didn't literally imply that "challenging => no fun". I find Plutonia challenging, but not that fun, which is a result of more factors (frequent dying from unfairly placed chaingunners being the major one, however). I could probably manage to beat Plutonia, but in my 2 posts above I've explained why I don't feel enthused about it. Ultimately though, I like to be challenged, and I see your point. I should and would like to get a better player anyway, after all.

I think these "You hate challenge" comments are little unfair.

People to seem to forget that challenge can be manages in different ways, and different people like different methods of challenge. But just because they dislike one challenging game, it doesn't mean they dislike them all.

I'm also not massive on Plutonia or TNT...but that's not to say I don't like challenging games, i'Robot is one the hardest arcade games I've played, but I love that game. And the old school GTA games like 1 and 2, I loved and they were hard as hell, Streets of Rage and Combatribes I like....I also like H.E.R.O and Pressure Cooker.

Different types of games with different types of challenge, and I enjoy them....But for all the challenge Plutonia and TNT may have, I've never gotten into it much. Doom 1 would be my favourite Doom game, and any fan/community WAD I like to be based on Doom 2....even though I'm not huge on that either (loving the textures, enemies and weapons though....just not played through it that many times). But it's still a fun game.

I find personally dislike Plutonia as it feels like a boring slog through countless dick moves by the map creator (infinitely reviving chaingunners, rooms absolutely filled with high level monsters, revenants all over the place and other such dickery). Rather than have fun plowing through the encounters, it just gets fucking annoying with ambush after ambush.

Granted, with multiple playthroughs I could possibly be able to appreciate it more as I will be more used to its bullshit, but one was enough.