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Lycaon

A great combination [Brutal + Vanguard]

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NoXion said:

I don't entirely understand the "balance" argument. Mapping styles in Doom vary, from small rooms and narrow corridors filled with small numbers of monsters and not much ammo, to massive open slaughterfest arenas with crowds of monsters and ammo in heaps everywhere. I don't think it works as a general criticism of BD or any other mod, although I accept it that it might be a good argument for recommending or avoiding certain maps or map-packs.

For example, if one tried playing Holy Hell using the mod Hideous Destructor, it would simply be impossible for anyone who isn't a god of FPS to finish the map. But Doom The Way iD Did? That might be more reasonable.

Similarly, DTWiD would be far too easy for most players if played with the mod Russian Overkill, but it goes well with HH.


It's looking at it from a more vanilla perspective. The original IWAD maps are built based on the vanilla behavior of the enemies and such. So, when something changes (such as an imp that jumps at you, as a general example), it kind of throws things off in regard to the original gameplay. Yes, it's a nice new addition that makes the game fresh and adds an extra degree of challenge, but again, I'm looking at it from a more vanilla perspective. I'd love to see new maps that are created specifically take advantage of BD's new features (maybe they are already available, I just haven't played BD in a while).

As for Brutal Doom's supposed "bro-ness", that seems to me to be a subjective observation, since I don't get that impression at all. A bro is something like what a highschool jock grows up to be, right? I don't see any popped collars or spraytans or whatever the fuck it is that's supposed to signify bro-ness (as a Brit it's foreign territory to me as far as I'm concerned).


The Bro thing that I referred to is definitely an Americanism, so I apologize for not being more clear. Basically, a Bro is a stereotypical, 20-something American male that is loud, inarticulate, over the top, and constantly tries to prove how cool and glorious he is to the world (usually by shouting and posing excessively, and/or overcompensating in one area to prove his manliness). How did I get this impression from BD? The constant one liners, both from the player and the rescued marines, the excessive finishing moves that scream, "look at how cool and brutal this is," and the general over the top nature of the mod as a whole.

I instead see demons getting killed in bloodier and more spectacular ways than in vanilla Doom, with the entirely optional choice of adding literal insult to mortal injury. I have something of an appreciation for lowbrow humour so occasionally giving demons the finger can be amusing, especially if the enraged demons in question end up causing worse infighting.


I like the fact that BD adds to the overall gore. However, there is adding extra gore, and then there is adding so much extra gore that it just becomes a parody of itself. I look at gore the same way that I look at swearing - if used thoughtfully and in moderation, then it has a better effect. If it is used too excessively, then it loses its effect and either becomes an afterthought or a general annoyance (especially when you can't find a switch after killing a single monster because it is covered with enough blood to fill 3-5 whole monster bodies).

Look, if you like BD, that's great. So do I. But could those of you who do like it please stop and think before you reply to those who don't? Calling them names isn't going to change their minds and just reduces to shit what could otherwise be good discussions. [/B]


I hate that admitting to liking BD often gets people flamed, and I hate that admitting to liking vanilla/classic often gets people flamed, too. You'd think that people would just respect each other's tastes in gaming and get on with it. I prefer vanilla/classic, but I'd never put down someone who prefers BD. There are things that I like about BD, and there are things that I don't like about BD, but it's a solid mod that tries to do something new with the franchise and I respect that.

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Sandstormer said:

It's looking at it from a more vanilla perspective. The original IWAD maps are built based on the vanilla behavior of the enemies and such. So, when something changes (such as an imp that jumps at you, as a general example), it kind of throws things off in regard to the original gameplay. Yes, it's a nice new addition that makes the game fresh and adds an extra degree of challenge, but again, I'm looking at it from a more vanilla perspective. I'd love to see new maps that are created specifically take advantage of BD's new features (maybe they are already available, I just haven't played BD in a while).


That's a good point, and I can appreciate that there are those who prefer vanilla Doom. In fact I myself have recently gotten into the habit of trying out new WADs with vanilla GZDoom first. This helps me decide what mod it might be good for (since there are mods apart from BD that I play) as well as keeping me familiar with the way vanilla plays.

The Bro thing that I referred to is definitely an Americanism, so I apologize for not being more clear. Basically, a Bro is a stereotypical, 20-something American male that is loud, inarticulate, over the top, and constantly tries to prove how cool and glorious he is to the world (usually by shouting and posing excessively, and/or overcompensating in one area to prove his manliness). How did I get this impression from BD? The constant one liners, both from the player and the rescued marines, the excessive finishing moves that scream, "look at how cool and brutal this is," and the general over the top nature of the mod as a whole.


Thank you for clarifying. I guess the over-the-topness just doesn't bother me, in fact it can sometimes be bloody hilarious. I like the finishing moves, they remind me of Brutalities from Mortal Kombat and it's interesting to see that kind of mechanic implemented in an FPS, although I do think it could with tweaking. Perhaps make it give you a bigger health bonus? The chatter from the rescued marines is amply compensated in my view by the fact that they're actually quite useful and worth rescuing, even if they tend to get themselves killed when going up against large numbers of powerful monsters. As I understand it the player only talks if the player decides to.

With regards the feel and general "attitude" of BD, if there can be said to be such a thing: I guess there are qualities and elements that I like in games that I would find despicable or annoying if I encountered them in real live people.

I like the fact that BD adds to the overall gore. However, there is adding extra gore, and then there is adding so much extra gore that it just becomes a parody of itself. I look at gore the same way that I look at swearing - if used thoughtfully and in moderation, then it has a better effect. If it is used too excessively, then it loses its effect and either becomes an afterthought or a general annoyance (especially when you can't find a switch after killing a single monster because it is covered with enough blood to fill 3-5 whole monster bodies).


You know, there have been a couple of occasions when playing BD where I've missed a switch because it's covered in blood, but as I remember it the blood definitely came from more than one monster being killed in quite a confined space. I don't think Brutal Doom is as bad as you say in that respect. Now that I'm aware of that possibility it is something I try checking if I end up getting stuck while playing. But I guess if there are multiple things about the mod which don't jive well with someone, then it's another irritating fault to lengthen the list.

I hate that admitting to liking BD often gets people flamed, and I hate that admitting to liking vanilla/classic often gets people flamed, too. You'd think that people would just respect each other's tastes in gaming and get on with it. I prefer vanilla/classic, but I'd never put down someone who prefers BD. There are things that I like about BD, and there are things that I don't like about BD, but it's a solid mod that tries to do something new with the franchise and I respect that.


I too am disappointed by the attitude both of the pro-BD and anti-BD sides. The subsequent shit-fights end up doing a disservice both ways; for the militant pro-BD folks their defensiveness prevents them from recognising BD's real imperfections (since it ain't perfect), while the vocally anti-BD people waste their own precious time talking about a mod they don't like.

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So lets talk about vangaurd instead ._.

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mrthejoshmon said:

the Doomworld Facebook page anybody?

Great place to go if you want to talk about anything but Doom :)

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40oz said:

So lets talk about vangaurd instead ._.

I'd played it around the time it came out. After finishing it, I decided that I didn't like it, and ultimately deleted it off my hard drive, despite how great it was visually.

I dislike slaughter maps in general, and I tend to avoid them, if possible.

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40oz said:

So lets talk about vangaurd instead ._.


the thing that really sticks with me about vanguard is how accessible the slaughter levels were to me. vanguard was p much the first real slaughterwad id ever played and at the time i was playing "hardcore" (no saves) so as a crash course im glad that it was so fun because i definitely remember a lot of deaths, especially a couple of soul-crushing late reveals like the wave of scattered archviles at the end of "infernal chasm".

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kmxexii said:

the thing that really sticks with me about vanguard is how accessible the slaughter levels were to me. vanguard was p much the first real slaughterwad id ever played and at the time i was playing "hardcore" (no saves) so as a crash course im glad that it was so fun because i definitely remember a lot of deaths, especially a couple of soul-crushing late reveals like the wave of scattered archviles at the end of "infernal chasm".


This is sommething I really noticed when I played through it yesterday, admittedly I wasn't pistol starting but it seemed a lot less deadly than it did when i first played it, thanks to the generous amount of health around (and the amount of slaughter maps I've played since then).

Definitely recommended for people who want to kill loads off stuff but don't have god-like doom skills (maybe thats why it works well with BD)

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40oz said:

So lets talk about vangaurd instead ._.


Stop derailing the thread, OP clearly states the discussion is about Vanguard combined with Brutal Doom.

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I've played a few levels of Vanguard in Vanilla, up to the one called "13 Angry Archviles". I was doing well up until then, I resurrected myself multiple times on that map.

Given that I find it easier to lose health in Brutal Doom (for example, I'm pretty sure that BD's equivalent to "Hurt Me Plenty" has monster numbers at "Ultra-Violence" levels), I can't see myself having too much fun on difficulty levels harder than "Power Fantasy". Which is a blast but you can really notice the difference in terms of taking damage. So it feels more suitable for a run-and-gun for stress relief rather than really challenging your FPS skills.

But I'll give it a go with BD, on difficulty "Full Ultra Violence" and then I'll report back.

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kmxexii said:

the thing that really sticks with me about vanguard is how accessible the slaughter levels were to me. vanguard was p much the first real slaughterwad id ever played and at the time i was playing "hardcore" (no saves) so as a crash course im glad that it was so fun because i definitely remember a lot of deaths, especially a couple of soul-crushing late reveals like the wave of scattered archviles at the end of "infernal chasm".

Me too, hence my line upthread crediting Vanguard with helping me become a better player. Sure, AV had a few maps at the end that are pretty much slaughters, but the difficulty curve in Vanguard was gradual enough that, by the time it moved into full-blown slaughter territory, I wasn't even thinking, "Wow, this is a completely different style of play for me," it was just hunkering down and figuring out how to plow through, and when it was all over it was like, "Wow, how did I get through that?" Just dead-brilliant design.

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Remiel said:

plasma niggers

I laughed harder than I probably should have

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Doomhuntress said:

you say you're burned out on BD, and that it has worn out it's welcome for you, yet you still link to your Brutal Video Vault in your signature...


That's because I upload non-BD Doom stuff and non-gaming stuff to my channel also. It is more like Doom Video Vault nowadays.

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I believe people are somewhat jealous of Mark's work. I might be reaching, but then again some people are whiny bitches.

Now you guys have something else to be jealous at: Total Choas: Overgrowth.

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Elaxter said:

I believe people are somewhat jealous of Mark's work. I might be reaching, but then again some people are whiny bitches.


lol

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Elaxter said:

I believe people are somewhat jealous of Mark's work. I might be reaching, but then again some people are whiny bitches.


Why do you think so?

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NoXion said:
Thank you for clarifying. I guess the over-the-topness just doesn't bother me, in fact it can sometimes be bloody hilarious. I like the finishing moves, they remind me of Brutalities from Mortal Kombat and it's interesting to see that kind of mechanic implemented in an FPS, although I do think it could with tweaking. Perhaps make it give you a bigger health bonus? The chatter from the rescued marines is amply compensated in my view by the fact that they're actually quite useful and worth rescuing, even if they tend to get themselves killed when going up against large numbers of powerful monsters. As I understand it the player only talks if the player decides to.

With regards the feel and general "attitude" of BD, if there can be said to be such a thing: I guess there are qualities and elements that I like in games that I would find despicable or annoying if I encountered them in real live people.


No problem. I actually like the idea of the monsters doing finishing moves. They are so much bigger and physically stronger than the player that it kind of makes sense that they would do finishing moves especially after finally winning. When the player does it, however, it seems a little silly and out of place. I mean, if Doom Guy can rip Barons and Mancubi apart with his bare hands, then why does he even need to use guns, lol!? I will admit that it is a pretty neat little mechanic. I think the author just needs to tweak it a bit.

You know, there have been a couple of occasions when playing BD where I've missed a switch because it's covered in blood, but as I remember it the blood definitely came from more than one monster being killed in quite a confined space. I don't think Brutal Doom is as bad as you say in that respect. Now that I'm aware of that possibility it is something I try checking if I end up getting stuck while playing. But I guess if there are multiple things about the mod which don't jive well with someone, then it's another irritating fault to lengthen the list.


It is not an objective fault, but a personal pet peeve. Shooting a single zombie with a shotgun and watching most of a corridor get covered in blood is a bit much. Not in a "there's too much blood and I can't handle it" sort of way, but in a "wow, was that really necessary?" sort of way, or in a "gee, do you think you could add just a little bit more blood? I can still see wall texture" sort of way. It is definitely hilarious, and I don't know if the author was going for that kind of effect, but it ends up being a self parody in many ways. I can see the Angry video game nerd having a go at it:

[AVGN] It wasn't enough that you blew the zombie's legs off? You have to kick his teeth out and curb stomp him, too? Why not drop your pants and take a shit on him, turn around and piss on him, then cover him with newspapers and set the newspapers on fire!? Then you can curse him out in ten different languages, flip him the bird, find a pick up truck and run over whatever is left of him 200 times in a row!!! Aren't you supposed to be a woefully outnumbered and outgunned space marine who is just trying to survive and close the god damned portals to hell? Where did all of this extreme, gore-porn, serial killer bullshit come from!? [/AVGN]

Good times, and no offense meant.

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Sandstormer said:

It wasn't enough that you blew the zombie's legs off? You have to kick his teeth out and curb stomp him, too? Why not drop your pants and take a shit on him, turn around and piss on him, then cover him with newspapers and set the newspapers on fire!? Then you can curse him out in ten different languages, flip him the bird, find a pick up truck and run over whatever is left of him 200 times in a row!!!

I had a thought about making a parody mod in this vein, but I never seriously considered it.

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