NOVA II - Ver. 1.2 on /idgames (now with no missing keycards!)

Breezeep said:

Will there be links provided in the OP for each map that is submitted so far?

Yeah, I'll be updating it once I play the new maps tomorrow and figure out if they're acceptable. Any map that's included in the current alpha I don't individually list (unless they get updated), as it seems like needless busywork (if others disagree I could dig back through the old thread).

So I've got this, but I can't figure out how to end it:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161031419/DemonTrench.wad

Any suggestions?

Alright, map review time.

AD_79 "Water Maim": Really excellent flow and progression—the way that the map interacts with itself is smart and frugal on space. It's also tricky without being too difficult, and will fit nicely in an E1 slot (or right after Breezeep's E2 starter). The only thing you need to fix is that there needs to be a way to get back across the SSG bridge, just in case the player missed a secret. Also, I think an AV would probably work better instead of the HK at the exit. And one minor thing—which you don't have to change if you wish—is that I think using multiple-colored LITEs can be a bit lurid, and it may be better to use one set of consistent LITEs per room (again, it's just my subjective preference).

Cyberdemon351's "Broken Outpost": A decent map. There's a couple of thing placement oddities that may mean tweaking, but it's nothing I'm going to dive into just right now (it's mostly how you sprinkle shells and stimpacks really close together instead of spacing them out). That, and a couple monster positions aren't really too effective (the entire YK fight can be taken piecemeal). I'll post more specific thoughts sometime down the line, but the still fits with the project so it'll be included

Noisy Velvet's map: Good stuff—the use of hitscanners at the start is brilliant, and the layout is pretty fun to explore. I think there should be a bit more ammo (particularly in the upper balcony of the mastermind room that you TP to after getting the red key) as I had to do a lot of punching. The BFG secret should be removed and it'd be better to place a secret exit there, and move this map to either the MAP15 or MAP31 slot. Also I think the map should have a custom midi too, and we can assign one if you don't feel like poking around.

MajorRawne "Defy Them Hopelessly": Cool stuff so far—using CEMENT in a hell setting is definitely something you don't see much of. I'd like to see a little REDROCK or SP_HOT influence just to so its says "hell" a little more (not too much tho), but otherwise I'm interested in seeing how this turns out. Also remember to work on your lighting, as the map is a bit bright as is so far.

Jaxxoon R "Demon Trench": I really like this one—feels like a (miniature) journey the player is going on. It has some keen architecture and great sense of variety, so I'm hoping it gets finished. No ideas on the ending... I don't think it needs to go on longer than 5 more minutes, so maybe change the red key door to YK and just have the player descend into some white ZIMMER?

I'll review KevinHEZ's maps a bit later.

Hi Dobu, thanks for your feedback.

The map I submitted was not envisioned as a hell map. However, your comments have inspired me. If I am going to go for the MAP21 slot after all, I believe this is the transition map between our dimension and Hell.

Instead of the map simply beginning in hell, as most transitional maps do, it could start in yet another techbase and either become increasingly corrupt, or there could be some major reveal later in the map... hmm, possibilities, not bad for my first-ever speedmap...

Thanks for the feedback. I'll add a teleporter or something so the player can get back across, and I'll replace that HK with something more threatening. Don't know if I'll change the lights in any way, I kinda like them :P

^ If you like 'em, keep 'em.

KevinHEZ "A Long Train Ride": Wasn't really feeling this one. The lighting and texture choice is fine, but the progression and encounters were pretty dull. Other than the fight for the SSG/blue key, it's a pretty straightforward progression, and there's a lot of backtracking on top of that to boot. I'm with cannonball in that everything past the BK door feels unnecessary, and though the AV fight was actually pretty surprising/thrilling, it feels out of place considering how relatively safe the rest of the map felt. We could leave this in the set, but I don't think it's an especially strong map and I'd prefer something better in its place.

KevinHEZ "Deep Water": Alright, now we're cookin'! Nice interconnectivity, areas encourage the player to enter them rather than camp doorways, and the encounters are a bit more spicy—the revenant is especially menacing with its homing rockets in that reactor room. There are some hiccups here and there, like the whimper the map ends on, non-damaging nukage, use of door textures that aren't doors, and a surplus of ammo sprinkled throughout, but otherwise its competently put together and fun.

KevinHEZ "Research and Development": Really cool map that (like you said) needs significant gameplay tweaks. Some fights are neat, some are just ok, and others are insanely brutal (like all the AVs past the YK door, and how easy it is to miss the PG because of it). It's definitely a looker though and has good progression, so I hope someone picks it up and just sands down away all the rough edges.

Since you're having problems with Doom Builder, I'm probably gonna implement the necessary changes to "Deep Water" myself since it's not all that hard to do. I would like someone else to handle "Research and Development" though, as that seems like a good map to have in our project too.

Speaking of the project, we have ~9 maps to go; we made some great headway already!

dobu gabu maru said:

Speaking of the project, we have ~9 maps to go; we made some great headway already!

Excellent, I am working on my second (And final) contribution as we speak.

Which leaves me with a question, should I just scrap the WIP map and just go and improve Practical Infiltration, another TNT: Project Geryon refugee.

(Unflattering WIP shots of the WIP map)

I really hate to see A Long Train Ride dropped, especially when Kevin is having technical difficulties with Doom Builder. If you can list some things that can be changed or improved, I'm sure someone can save it.

mrthejoshmon said:

Which leaves me with a question,

I checked out your Geryon contribution, and while it is competently put together, one of the problems is that we have a surplus of E1/early E2 maps as is, and plus your egyptian-style WIP looks way more interesting and creative.

Impboy4 said:

If you can list some things that can be changed or improved, I'm sure someone can save it.

I don't mean this to sound rude, but part of the problem is that it's somewhat unsalvageable. Everything past the BK door needs layout overhauls, and the rest of the map (while looking nice) would need a bit more than just enemy rearrangements (I don't think the linearity is particularly good here). If this was Kevin's only contribution we'd definitely keep it, but considering that he has ~3 much better maps already in the NOVA II, I dunno how I feel about letting in a tepid fourth. I'm not booting it from the project just yet or anything, but like I said, I'd prefer having a stronger map in its place.

Would you want me to change some stuff for my map, or would you do that part?

dobu gabu maru said:

I checked out your Geryon contribution, and while it is competently put together, one of the problems is that we have a surplus of E1/early E2 maps as is, and plus your egyptian-style WIP looks way more interesting and creative.

Alright, I will get cracking with the egyptian map and solo release PRACT.

it may take a while though, I want to really dig in with this map and really see what I can do.

Alright, so I added in the exit and switched around the keys a bit, also added new secret area.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/161031419/DemonTrench2.wad

Taking a brief break from Panophobia... if I have to pull down one more F_SKY1 sector I'll break out in hives.

Done a bit of conversion work on DEFY THEM HOPELESSLY for Nova 2.

Unlike most map 21s, I'm going to make this a bit bigger. My first ever Hell map won't be a piddly little thing. I have started converting and corrupting the tech base. The player will change between being in Hell and the material world, finally ending up in Hell for a massed onslaught. Emphasis is on speed and excitement, not outdoing Sunder.

MajorRawne said:

a bit bigger.

I hope you don't make it too big. This is just my opinion, but I generally like smaller maps over larger ones that go on for too long.

I'm a fan of the first version of your map. It had a lot of connectivity between it's components and was enjoyable to walk around in. It also had a crate room, i like crate rooms :). I hope you don't spread the map too thin.

Edit: I guess there's no inherit problem with longer maps though if the quality stays strong all the way through. Also, I die alot and don't like saving, so i'm biased towards small maps.

Don't worry, I hate epic maps that require 2 hours to navigate, I just meant I'll add in a dedicated hell section and there will be some copy/pasting for the transition between dimensions. It'll hopefully take about 10 mins or so to beat.

The download link in the OP for my submission seems to be linking to Kevin's Research and Development map instead of mine.

^ oops, fixed.

Cyberdemon531 said:

Would you want me to change some stuff for my map, or would you do that part?

Uhhhh this is a good question. On one hand it's best for the authors to do most things themselves, but on the other it would be easier to go in there and make edits rather than typing up a long response. If you're fine with me making personal edits I suppose I could give it a shot

Alright, fine with me.

Updated Deep Water. I hope Kevin doesn't mind, but I added one of his tracks to the map since I think his stuff is great and fits well.

EDIT: fixed the double 1p start—it's a good lesson on why you should test any last minute fixes you throw in!

dobu gabu maru said:

Updated Deep Water. I hope Kevin doesn't mind, but I added one of his tracks to the map since I think his stuff is great and fits well.

It seems that the map has 2 player one starts, but other than that, i loved it xD

Also, nice job fitting Lysithea into the map, you can use the midi mega pack for other maps too ;)

Edit: i'm going to release the full version of the midi pack in a couple of days, it'll have many other songs.

dobu gabu maru said:

Updated Deep Water. I hope Kevin doesn't mind, but I added one of his tracks to the map since I think his stuff is great and fits well.

EDIT: fixed the double 1p start—it's a good lesson on why you should test any last minute fixes you throw in!

Nice, the download I got had a P1 start instead of a teleport location marker. But otherwise the map plays really nicely now.

I'm just posting to re-reserve the Map 15 slot, which I've been working on since the Holidays in hope of some kind of rough alpha release within the next few weeks. College has been kicking my butt lately, but I only have a couple more projects to worry about so I'll be getting more time to mess around with the map.

Finished the Mega MIDI Pack, here it is, you can use these songs for your NOVA 2 maps or whatever, be sure to read the read-me file inside the .zip

Download:
https://www.mediafire.com/?1agx7f5vebgzudr

Thanks!

an_mutt said:

I'm just posting to re-reserve the Map 15 slo

Alright. Noisy Velvet's map can probably go in slot 31, or if he wants it in the main set the secret exit can go back to being a BFG.

Updated Broken Outpost. It still needs difficulties, but I think I'll let Cyberdemon531 handle that. I'm going to try and describe my philosophy on editing it below, just as a primer for new mappers in general.

Lighting is just as important as textures. Not only does it serve as natural ambiance, but it can also give the player direction. For instance, lighting up areas will more easily mark them in the player's mind, and darkening areas can create tension and tell the player "be careful here". I did plenty of detailing in compliment to the lighting, mainly to give every room a particular "feel"; even in rooms with no detail in the wall/ceiling (like the blue armor sector), you can still manipulate the lighting and decorations in such a way to give a unique vibe. Remember that Doom has been around for a long time so square rooms with GSTONE or STARTAN as their only defining trait are extremely dull and impress no one.

When placing ammo/monsters into the map, you should always think "what purpose does this serve?" For instance, if you have a lot of hitscanners out on the field, it's a good idea to give armor to the player and realize you don't really need to supply much ammo since the humanoids drop their weapons. And when placing down goodies for the player, it's smart to keep them in distinctive areas and out of the way. Spreading them around willy-nilly makes the map seem disordered and doesn't give the player a good idea of how much ammo is really out on the field. It's also a bad idea to place two boxes of shells anywhere near each other, unless a big fight is coming up and the player needs the ammo.

And as for the monsters, each of them fills a particular role. Sure, some are highly more versatile than others (revs), but you have to realize which rooms and placements compliment which monsters. The final battle of the map is a good example of this. Cyberdemon531's original composition was good, but displaced--the sergeants could easily be taken out, and then the pinkies and arachs did little to impede your progress as you ground them down from the field below. Here, I made the arachs pressure the player first, with the flood of hitscanners pelting them from the windows. The player is now forced to go into the field, but with the AV and PEs running around, they're incentivized to go back up onto the balcony to take them out as fast as they can; this allows the arachs to shell the player for a while since they're so busy with all these other threats. Of course there are trade offs here and there (the high number of hitscanners leads them to infight easily and the AV spends more time punishing his horde than fighting the player), but as long as the fight feels both kinetic and fun, it'll likely be well-received.

Lastly, this is reminder that linear maps are generally low in the replayability department. You can still make them fun with good atmosphere or clever encounters, but the more options you can provide, the better. You shouldn't be making a map and connecting room after room after room (unless you're speedmapping), but rather think about how each of the rooms will interconnect with one another, and what you can do to continuously make encounters interesting even when they traverse old areas.

J4rio has very kindly provided a thorough FDA of my map, "Defy Them Hopelessly". It has given me at least a dozen good ideas to upgrade the visuals and increase the difficulty. The conversion to hell is progressing slowly as I learn new techniques. My first beta is going to look a bit weird as it suddenly jars from a tech base into hell at the moment.

Still working on this thing, which I'm tentatively calling 'Purification Plant'.



The basic layout/flow of the map is done. I'm now starting to enter the monster placement phase. I always have a rough idea about enemy encounters while I'm making and detailing the map, but nothing is set in stone until the game play aspects are right, so the map you see above may change.

Apart from that, there is plenty more detail and lighting to be added. I really just wanted you to know that I'm still here and committed to making a map for this project.

What needs to be refined in Demon Trench? And also, the music track included is only there so I and testers of the map wouldn't have to listen to Running from Evil again.

Dave The Daring said:

Still working on this thing, which I'm tentatively calling 'Purification Plant'.

That looks very interesting. Ginormous, too. ;) I look forward to checking it out when you're done.

This is my current work in progress.

I designed it to be an earlier map and therefore it is not large.

I've included difficulty level settings and a midi although I might change it later.

It uses a WFALL1 - WFALL4 animated texture for waterfalls.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/8f3141gs9a3hk8a/Rocky+Rooftops.zip Version 1.

I tried using the texture pack but it kept giving me errors or displaying the textures as corruptions.

KevinHEZ said:

Finished the Mega MIDI Pack, here it is, you can use these songs for your NOVA 2 maps or whatever, be sure to read the read-me file inside the .zip

Download:
https://www.mediafire.com/?1agx7f5vebgzudr

cn_p2_dream is my favorite track in the whole pack. I love dark sounding midis. Great work on your music!