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Knas

Looking for feedback for my 1st ep of my Doom 1 wad

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scifista42 said:

gameplay capable of providing something fresh and/or thrilling and memorable

You can't do that without revenants. Revenants are a staple of Doom gameplay.

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@Da Werecat: UAC_DEAD, Alienst-TC and !PIPE!.WAD would beg to disagree with you.

@scifista: Thanks for the explanation, but isn't it essentially what you proposed in your first post?

@Knas: don't be discouraged by the amount of work in front of you. It should be less than what you already put into it, for sure. There's no deadline, just go at your own pace. The goal of making it playable in every major DOOM engine is worth it, and you'll pick up a thing or two as a mapper along the way.

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scifista42 said:

Thanks for the feedback, even though I'm not sure what you mean with not very memorable. There are tons of wads out there and doing something that sticks out gets harder and harder, especially for something that is really objective like this. Got any suggestions that would fit my style?

The goal for this wad would be something I would enjoy playing myself and doing it as good I can.

Hope to hear more when you played the rest.

@Knas: don't be discouraged by the amount of work in front of you. It should be less than what you already put into it, for sure. There's no deadline, just go at your own pace. The goal of making it playable in every major DOOM engine is worth it, and you'll pick up a thing or two as a mapper along the way.

Oh I intend to make it playable as much as possible, but what is considered every major Doom engine? I really have no idea what the average Doom player prefers.

Also are there any "not obvious traps" while making wads that can mess up compatibility, like the texture thing you fixed?

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Knas said:

Got any suggestions that would fit my style?

The goal for this wad would be something I would enjoy playing myself and doing it as good I can.

All good. The only suggestion to achieve originality that I can think off is "don't rely on imitating E1 or anything, get ideas for architecture and gameplay that should be good as themselves, confidently implement them and polish them to work as you intended". However, if generic E1-styled wads is what you enjoy and want to make, then it's OK. Another obvious suggestion (for next time): Try to watch out for misalignments and dirty/unclean/eye-unpleasant texture usage, and fix them.

Knas said:

Oh I intend to make it playable as much as possible, but what is considered every major Doom engine?

Never_Again basically means to get rid of zdoomisms, to allow the wad being playable in vanilla (and consequently ALL ports) or at least all limit-removing ports like PrBoom-plus is, ports with good demo compatibility (as opposed to just ZDoom-based ports).

Knas said:

Also are there any "not obvious traps" while making wads that can mess up compatibility, like the texture thing you fixed?

ZDoomisms:
-Tag 0 on S1/SR/W1/WR lines - in ZDoom, it will affect the line's back side sector, but in vanilla and classic ports, it will affect all sectors with tag 0 in the entire map -> don't do this, and always use non-zero tags for S1/SR/W1/WR linedef actions. On the other hand, D1/DR actions should have tag 0.
-Walkover linedefs in front of switchable linedefs - in vanilla and classic ports, they'll block player's ability to press use through the walkover linedef -> don't put linedefs with a walkover action in front of doors or switches.

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It's not E1-styled, and it doesn't feel generic.

For example, DTWID is imitative by design, but this episode has little resemblance to such wads.

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Da Werecat said:

It's not E1-styled, and it doesn't feel generic.

I've seen Knas's wad that way, specially E1M2 onwards. I've casually strolled through the maps and felt exactly like when playing generic E1 replacements - and I've enjoyed it, because I was in the right mood for that. Let's say that each of us views this differently, which is of course normal - any given feedback is subjective and related to the reviewer.

The first particularly good and sticking-out moment came in E1M4, where an entire room transformed into Hell. I liked it, it also distinguished that part of the level from being generic, in my view.

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scifista42 said:

Let's say that each of us views this differently, which is of course normal - any given feedback is subjective and related to the reviewer.

That's why I provided mine. :)

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Da Werecat said:

That's why I provided mine. :)

Heh, all good. Expressions without "to me; in my opinion" make it unclear what we meant to express as a subjective opinion, and what we considered (or oppositely, denied) to be an objective truth. We're both guilty of such expressions. :)

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scifista42 said:

-Walkover linedefs in front of switchable linedefs - in vanilla and classic ports, they'll block player's ability to press use through the walkover linedef -> don't put linedefs with a walkover action in front of doors or switches.

Not just walkover specials - any non-zero action special (including 48, texture scroller) will "eat" key presses. And the specials that this can be rendered unusable this way include D1/DR manuals as well.

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I've played through all maps now, with an exception of the secret level. I liked the maps. Up to roughly E1M7, each of them seemed to be better than the previous one. Both E1M6 and E1M7 were really great maps which I've enjoyed a lot. I appreciated the non-standard-KDITD design and texture choices in E1M7 in particular. In E1M6, there was a pedestal with a Plasmagun and a blue torch nearby, I've been pressing the torch and heard a stop sound of a moving floor, but nothing actually happened - not sure if a bug or if I've just missed something.

E1M8 provided an above-average finale too - the Baron battle took place in a nice room and featured a lot of monsters (but too much ammo, IMO), while most E1M8's battles tend to be underwhelming, as I see it - yours weren't! Well, the epilogue with Cyberdemon snipers was kind of an afterthought, though. One more thing about E1M8: There were numerous demonic face switches that weren't entirely obvious to be switches. Some of them just unlocked a small room with ammo, and I liked these - explorative players will be rewarded. But then, these switches were also used as a way of mandatory progression in the marble staircase room, and I thought they weren't clear enough for the player to discover them, which they should be if they're mandatory.

One more thing on the topic I've raised earlier, just to prevent misunderstandings. When I call a map to be generic or forgettable, I mean that it didn't show enough distinctive landmarks, or original / particularly impressive-looking rooms. I don't mean that the maps were bland or that I had a negative attitude to them, nor do I mean that it's bad and should be changed. No, not necessarily. I use the word as the map's trait. The thing is, these maps are techbases in roughly E1 style. I've seen hundreds of E1 techbases, and I would call a lot of them to be generic - and I still enjoy many of them a lot! Generic doesn't mean bad to me, it refers to the typized and predictable style which can still result in a map enjoyable to play for people who like the particular style. Making impressive and memorable areas is good if you have an ambition to become known for your level design. But it's not a necessity if all you want is making normal techbases. And something along these lines is what I've tried to tell you.

By the way, here are few examples of areas that I considered non-generic (and therefore memorable) in your maps:

-E1M1 outdoor. I wasn't particularly impressed, but it was good.
-E1M4 hellish ambush. That was a good surprise, I thought!
-E1M6 outdoor with rocks and the bridge. Nice.
-E1M7 as the whole, with its silver colour theme, teleporter puzzles and hellish scenery. I liked it.
-E1M8 Baron battle was admittedly generic, but not in the context of E1M8 finale, and again, I liked it except for too much ammo and health being there.

Overally, good mapset.

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scifista42 said:

In E1M6, there was a pedestal with a Plasmagun and a blue torch nearby, I've been pressing the torch and heard a stop sound of a moving floor, but nothing actually happened - not sure if a bug or if I've just missed something.

Must be a port thing. When a sector doesn't move it makes no sound in ZDoom anyway. It's an easy fix. Anyway, it's the last one to push after 3 other hidden switches, the same thing as finding the secret level on level 4. It's a bit hard to find them, but the plasmagun really makes the levels trivial so I choose to do it that way.

E1M8 provided an above-average finale too - the Baron battle took place in a nice room and featured a lot of monsters (but too much ammo, IMO), while most E1M8's battles tend to be underwhelming, as I see it - yours weren't! Well, the epilogue with Cyberdemon snipers was kind of an afterthought, though. One more thing about E1M8: There were numerous demonic face switches that weren't entirely obvious to be switches. Some of them just unlocked a small room with ammo, and I liked these - explorative players will be rewarded. But then, these switches were also used as a way of mandatory progression in the marble staircase room, and I thought they weren't clear enough for the player to discover them, which they should be if they're mandatory.

Yea I noticed that there are too much ammo too. However, if you don't open the ammo rooms at the last fight. The cacos won't spawn, fyi. :p

Yea, the cybers where kind of an afterthought. It was just supposed to be an empty room, showing that you have escaped the demons, but it was boring. Now at least there is some sense urgency, that you aren't finished with the demons and you must escape quickly to continue the fight in ep2. Or something like that. Hope you didn't try to fight them? :p

Don't know what to say about the switches. I try to be as consistent as possible and them acting as switches at the beginning of the stage should indicate to the player that they will continue to be switches, which they do.

Overally, good mapset. [/B]

Thanks, and thanks for the feedback. :)

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Knas said:

When a sector doesn't move it makes no sound in ZDoom anyway.

I used Zandronum (earlier version than v2.0), where it does make a sound. But anyway, I didn't expect that more than 1 secret switches are needed to be pressed - that explains it, as I've only found that one blue torch.

Yea, the cybers where kind of an afterthought.

I would say that a monster-less yet climatic area would have been better than any monsters placed with an intention to be skipped. Yes, I skipped them, but thought "ugh" just before that. But well, it wasn't that bad.

Don't know what to say about the switches. I try to be as consistent as possible and them acting as switches at the beginning of the stage should indicate to the player that they will continue to be switches, which they do.

What if the player doesn't find them at the beginning? They look like decorations. IMO, mandatory switches / doors / other interactive objects should be (out of principle) always easy to find and never interchangable with non-interactive scenery (obviously, secrets are an exception, but those are not mandatory anyway).

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I've finally played E1M9 and it was OK, up to the slaughterish part. The problem was that the rooms were way too large and allowed to easily skip all the monsters and just run to the switches / exit. Hordes of monsters coming from all sides still didn't pose an efficient-enough opposition to prevent it, and so the gameplay turned out to be underwhelming. Also, too much medikits and other items. Overally, the 2nd part of the map just felt out of balance and idealess, which I think should be avoided.

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