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Jekyll Grim Payne said:

There wasn't a single person who cared about the fact that trees blocked bullets and then at some version stopped to :) Well, obviously it doesn't mean much, but I think it's best to stick to not changing the shootable properties.


...what? This bit is all over the place man. "and then at some version stopped to" meaning people stopped caring or decorations stopped blocking bullets? Either way, it's not a really big deal. If all the decorations are going to be unable to be interacted with, leave them with vanilla properties.

Regarding bone/ribs in gib sprites...eh, don't feel too strongly either way. As long as the crude bone bits in 5.3's sprites are being changed, I say cool. Plus the sprites you've shown look flat-out good.

Also, the splash sound, ESPECIALLY when involving liquids...I kinda liked it :V Would be cool to see it left in at a much lower volume.

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Platinum Shell said:

Either way, it's not a really big deal. If all the decorations are going to be unable to be interacted with, leave them with vanilla properties.


I meant that in older versions trees blocked bullets, and then later I removed that property, and there was no feedback complaining about that change. But I did get some complaints when in one of the versions I removed chaingun's alt.attack :) Sorry, I'm sometimes wordy when I express myself. English is not my native language.

I added detailed description of my current approach towards decorations in the first post.

Platinum Shell said:

Also, the splash sound, ESPECIALLY when involving liquids...I kinda liked it :V Would be cool to see it left in at a much lower volume.


Yes, that is a sort of problem. There are two main cases of such splahes:
1) Splahes when you walk on the liquid. It's sort of loud, so I may decrease the volume a little so that it's not that annoying.

2) Splashes when gibs/blood splash over the water. This is more
problematic because the annoying volume results mostly from the amount of particles rather than from the sound's volume. I think that I'll try to remove water splashes for blood (if my script works corretly, blood drops will just disappear on water silently).

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So like originally but revamoed and with some effects added to some decoration types? Not bad. It would be cool to see another mod show some love towards decorations. Another great example for decorations I'd say would be Hideous Destructor, especially recently. Might even give you some ideas or inspirations, too.

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Platinum Shell said:

So like originally but revamoed and with some effects added to some decoration types? Not bad. It would be cool to see another mod show some love towards decorations. Another great example for decorations I'd say would be Hideous Destructor, especially recently. Might even give you some ideas or inspirations, too.


Yes. Working with decorations has always been, in fact, one of the main points of Beautiful Doom. I aimed to remaking every single object in Doom, not just weapons or pickups. Well, as I explained, now I think there are a few objects not worth remaking, but just a few :)

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I could be wrong, but I think there's a function in SNDINFO that can limit the number of times a sound can play simultaneously, so after, say, ten simultaneous splashes it'll cap off and not spam your speakers.

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Gifty said:

I could be wrong, but I think there's a function in SNDINFO that can limit the number of times a sound can play simultaneously, so after, say, ten simultaneous splashes it'll cap off and not spam your speakers.


That's a good idea. Noted!

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Loved your mod - offered the neat deal between looking good but keeping it balanced.
That's why my 50 cents will be about mechanics, mainly alternative fire - don't do it at all, or do it for every weapon.
It seems small, but it will grant additional tactical advantage to two weapons that really don't need the boost (SSG is the strongest choice already, single shot will render shotgun useless).
Personally, I would like to have alternative fire for every piece in game, to strengthen the less popular guns. But I understand it will be a lot of work and isn't the main focus of your mod, so getting rid of this feature is also an option.

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Sergeek said:

Loved your mod - offered the neat deal between looking good but keeping it balanced.
That's why my 50 cents will be about mechanics, mainly alternative fire - don't do it at all, or do it for every weapon.
It seems small, but it will grant additional tactical advantage to two weapons that really don't need the boost (SSG is the strongest choice already, single shot will render shotgun useless).
Personally, I would like to have alternative fire for every piece in game, to strengthen the less popular guns. But I understand it will be a lot of work and isn't the main focus of your mod, so getting rid of this feature is also an option.


It's just that I simply don't really see the way to make alt.attacks for other weapons. What kind of secondary fire mode can a shotgun have? Or a rocket launcher? Or a pistol? None, if I'm trying to stay remotely realistic (and true to canon). A single-barrel shot for an SSG is an on-the-surface idea. BTW, it doesn't cover shotgun's functionality completely, because even a single-barrel shot has a much larger spread (and nobody really uses shotgun in Doom II anyway).

But in any case, I'm probably going to implement two player classes with original and slightly rebalanced weapons. The rebalanced weapons will include silent fist (with loud fist banging as a secondary attack, for alerting enemies... and for show), dual pistols (perhaps with even faster fire + larger spread for secondary attack), alt.attacks for SSG and chaingun. So far I don't have ideas for alt.attacks for other weapons. People who invent alt.attacks for Plasma rifle and BFG usually end up with making them shoot differently-sized plasma balls, which is something I definitely don't want to do, and stuff like railguns would go against core mechanics (ranged weapons don't do well in Doom). I have to say, alt.attacks are mostly for fun.

In any case, I'm working on monsters now, sprites, etc. Optimizing scripts too. There's quite a lot to do before I get to guns, so I'll be thinking what to do with them. Thanks for the feedback!

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Jekyll Grim Payne said:

What kind of secondary fire mode can a shotgun have?

For example, this one has two fire modes - pump and semi. It has more to do with reliability and to counter jamming, and such mechanics aren't present in DOOM, but you can improvise. Semi-auto shot is faster, but spread is huge, whilst pump-action shot is slower, but spread is smaller.

Jekyll Grim Payne said:

Or a rocket launcher?

Slower rate of fire - but faster projectile, when you aren't crowd-controlling, but fighting a single powerful target.

Jekyll Grim Payne said:

Or a pistol?

You had that idea about akimbo style - though I can see how poorly it fits DOOM aesthetics. Go for burst fire to make an improvised shotgun? Semi-auto for pinpoint accuracy?

Jekyll Grim Payne said:

(and nobody really uses shotgun in Doom II anyway)

Well it has its uses when you're trying to conserve ammo, but I concur. I switch back to shotgun only on some PWADs which offer distance, because of tighter spread. I understand you are trying to keep it faithful, but those ideas about alternative fire and silent fist you already had on your mind suggest that you do want to increase the utility of some mechanics, so why don't you increase the utility of things that need it the most?

Jekyll Grim Payne said:

People who invent alt.attacks for Plasma rifle

Plasma shotgun - NO, NO, DON'T REPORT ME, LISTEN! Most of the time when people are trying to work with this concept, they forget about the main advantage of plasma rifle - projectiles travel in predictable, straight pattern. Just make the gun to spit three plasma balls with fixed spread, just like our lovely mancubus does with his napalm - it fits DOOM balancing quite well.
Though I also don't know what to do with BFG - tweaking fire rate and damage seems redundant because of plasma rifle.

Jekyll Grim Payne said:

Thanks for the feedback!

Thank you for returning to this project. Looking forward to further updates!

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Good news, I've always preferred Beautiful Doom to Brutal Doom.

What I'd personally like to see:

More efficient pistol, make it a true side-arm, have it on quick draw so you can quickly flick between it and the current weapon, would be great for quickly dispatching zombies when you suddenly enter a room and don't want to fire a rocket off. It can fire as fast as you pull the trigger but becomes wildly inaccurate giving it a more tactical use in short bursts.

Give it it's own ammo pool, so it doesn't become redundant when you have the chaingun, and make every type of ammo you pick up contain at least 5 - 10 pistol rounds or something like that.

That would be my only "would like" really, I wouldn't want to change too much and go in Brutals direction. But I’d enjoy that.

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Englander said:

Good news, I've always preferred Beautiful Doom to Brutal Doom.

What I'd personally like to see:

More efficient pistol, make it a true side-arm, have it on quick draw so you can quickly flick between it and the current weapon, would be great for quickly dispatching zombies when you suddenly enter a room and don't want to fire a rocket off. It can fire as fast as you pull the trigger but becomes wildly inaccurate giving it a more tactical use in short bursts.

Give it it's own ammo pool, so it doesn't become redundant when you have the chaingun, and make every type of ammo you pick up contain at least 5 - 10 pistol rounds or something like that.

That would be my only "would like" really, I wouldn't want to change too much and go in Brutals direction. But I’d enjoy that.


Well, I'm not going to change ammo types or amounts, that's for sure. Faster selection/deselection speed as well as slightly faster firing speed and perhaps a couple of points of damage is going to be present when playing the Rebalanced playerclass. I'm not going to go further because, although the whole bulk of changes sounds nice, even with the Rebalanced player class I'm going to feature only the changes that seem logical, but at the same time don't break that oldschool unrealistic feel that all old shooters have. The fast firing speed and separate ammo for pistol all seem reasonable, but they are more realistic, more suitable for modern shooters. Whereas stuff like single-shot for double-barelled shotgun is a feature present in many oldschool shooters after Doom.

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Jekyll Grim Payne said:

Well, I'm not going to change ammo types or amounts, that's for sure. Faster selection/deselection speed as well as slightly faster firing speed and perhaps a couple of points of damage is going to be present when playing the Rebalanced playerclass. I'm not going to go further because, although the whole bulk of changes sounds nice, even with the Rebalanced player class I'm going to feature only the changes that seem logical, but at the same time don't break that oldschool unrealistic feel that all old shooters have. The fast firing speed and separate ammo for pistol all seem reasonable, but they are more realistic, more suitable for modern shooters. Whereas stuff like single-shot for double-barelled shotgun is a feature present in many oldschool shooters after Doom.


So Duke Nukem 3D is a modern shooter? sans the "quickdraw" option that's pretty much what I meant. The pistol doesn't become useless when all other weapon ammutions are depleted.

Fair enough though, it's your mod and work, and I'm still looking forward to the latest installment. Good luck with it.

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Englander said:

So Duke Nukem 3D is a modern shooter? sans the "quickdraw" option that's pretty much what I meant. The pistol doesn't become useless when all other weapon ammutions are depleted.

Fair enough though, it's your mod and work, and I'm still looking forward to the latest installment. Good luck with it.


DN3D simply has fast firing speed, that's all. There's no correlation between pressing the attack button and firing animation. I am going to make increased firing speed for Rebalanced playerclass, but certainly not as fast as DN3D (because that would be almost as fast as the chaingun).

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Jekyll Grim Payne said:

and nobody really uses shotgun in Doom II anyway

Don't make this assumption just because you personally don't use the weapon. Shotgun is good to deal with lone weak targets, distant targets and/or very high-up positioned targets. Particularly in maps with tight balance. You should take into account that people's playstyles but also mapping styles are infinitely varied.

Jekyll Grim Payne said:

two player classes with original and slightly rebalanced weapons

Sounds good to me.

Jekyll Grim Payne said:

dual pistols (perhaps with even faster fire + larger spread for secondary attack

Feel free to use my sprites from 2pistols.wad on /idgames. The 2nd pistol is not just a mirrored common one, it's flipped back (otherwise shadows on the gun would look unnatural) and only the hand is mirrored.

The obvious alt attack for double pistols would be to make them fire both at once (as opposed to firing them in turns), without really altering the overall fire rate.

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scifista42
Don't make this assumption just because you personally don't use the weapon. Shotgun is good to deal with lone weak targets, distant targets and/or very high-up positioned targets. Particularly in maps with tight balance. You should take into account that people's playstyles but also mapping styles are infinitely varied.


I mentioned in that post that because of the spread difference SSG alt.attack doesn't cover shotgun's functionality.

scifista42
Feel free to use my sprites from 2pistols.wad on /idgames. The 2nd pistol is not just a mirrored common one, it's flipped back (otherwise shadows on the gun would look unnatural) and only the hand is mirrored.


Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

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It's not like the other live monsters which are made out of paper when you look at them from below or under.

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joe-ilya said:

It's not like the other live monsters which are made out of paper when you look at them from below or under.


It's called sprite billboard. It's not a bug, it's a feature. All flying and round objects in my mod have +FORCEXYBILLBOARD flag that makes them rotate with player's vision, so that you can actually see a Cacodemon from below, rather than its flat bottom. It's a matter of convenience. BTW this is original Doom's behavior for all sprites, just not in (G)ZDoom.

Perhaps I should make it so that this flag is removed when the monster dies so that its corpse doesn't rotate.

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Jekyll Grim Payne said:

DN3D simply has fast firing speed, that's all. There's no correlation between pressing the attack button and firing animation. I am going to make increased firing speed for Rebalanced playerclass, but certainly not as fast as DN3D (because that would be almost as fast as the chaingun).


You said a faster pistol and it's own ammo pool suit modern shooters, DN3D isn't a modern shooter is it mate.

Anyway fine, you wanted opinions, I gave one.

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Englander said:

Anyway fine, you wanted opinions, I gave one.


Yes. Thanks :) I will be considering everything.

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I just love this mod. I wouldn't change anything, except little things, like those "western" sound of the shotgun. I'd remove them; just the western sounds, not the shot sounds. Shot sounds are cool.

Also I would add imps fireballs and torches of Brutal Doom, and a little more amount of blood. That's all to be perfect.

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I'd love to see this mod's gore elements replaced with 'Ketchup' - specifically PermaNoob's version that builds on what Sergeant Mark released some time back.

It is available for download here:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/guf1he59ssl5k44/ketchuptest4_modified_noob.pk3

What's great about this carnage pack is the meaner impact and destruction sound effects, the wide array of colours depending upon enemy shot at/gibbed, the visceral splatters and dripping pools (with ceiling splatters - not just walls) and all the random viscera when enemies are blown apart.

All these aspects combined with the effects having much nicer hang-time and trajectory physics in the air make it the best gore mod available in my opinion.

The problem is that when combined with Beautiful Doom (and SmoothDoom unfortunately) is that it cuts out your unique death animations which is a real shame. Seeing these two mods merged would be fantastic.

(I'm glad to hear you are considering reverting the Plasma Rifle back to vanilla. It's a little too jarring aesthetically for my tastes.)

As others have suggested, I think a wider array of toggle-able options to strike a balance between purists and eye candy would be well received. It's great to hear you're looking to revisit this mod and I'm looking forward to seeing what further improvements and ideas you're cooking up.

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Hello, I'm a little late to the party, just found this but I will post my opinion anyway...
First of all, great mod, love it and glad to see it's making a comeback.

FULLY agree with less blood. Very glad to see I'm not the only one. That's one of the reasons I dislike Brutal Doom. Overexagerating the gore and violence seems to me like a mockery of Doom. Almost everyone seems to think that Doom is just gibs, intestines and gallons of blood everywhere and every wall should have several centimetres of blood on it with a serving of more intestines on top of it. WHY????
The splats on the wall that ZDoom/GZDoom added are perfect and just enough.

1.
I like having that feel that I'm playing the one and only Doom, not a Doom mod. Modified behaviors just dont fit to me. I'd also like to see original plasma gun sprite return, but of course with updated animations. Fist change sounds good and alt fire doesnt have to be used, so no problem there. Also agree with previous post about the wild west sounds of bullets 'whizzing' everywhere. They don't fit too well in Doom. And please bring back the vanilla rocket explosions. One more thing, the chaingun sprite seems 'narrower?' than it should be. Seems smaller than the original. The new chaingun sprite sounds interesting, but it would have to have the 'feel' of the original one.

2.
Everything seems good to me. The killable but not blocking shots variant sounds the best. Again, vanilla as close as possible.

3.
Very interesting topic. In the original, Invisibility was like a double edged sword. It's far from useless however. It is extremely valuable against hit-scanners (ZM, SG, HWD, SMM), whose attacks rarely hit you, but it's not so good against projectiles with travel time. And that's the charm. You have to think when to use it and be careful when you have it. So my opinion is, keep the vanilla.


Some random stuff.


Autoaim. In previous version, you were forced to use 'monsters only' autoaim, which didn't aim at barrels. When I first tried this mod, this thing really put me off. The cause could be that I'm playing old school (means keyboard only), so I can't aim at what I want and have to rely on autoaim. I suspect that would be fixed if decorations had vanilla behavior?

Chainsaw doesn't move at all? Is there a problem on my end or everyone has this one?

I'd like some of the old weapon sounds back, namely BFG and rocket launcher. To me, rocket launcher sounded better before and you just DON'T change the sound of the BFG, that's heresy!!!

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What's the port compatibility plans? The original was GZDoom only, is that still the case?

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Just to let you know, guys, I haven't forgotten about you. Just lots of work plus my PhD thesis. I'll keep workin on it as much as I can.

For now I'm mostly working on redrawing sprites, adding more detail, better ribcages and more resting positions for heads, stuff like that. Also reverting some of the too-far-gone changes made to some objects, moving stuff closer to the original.

There will be lots of gibs, but much less blood. E.g. killed non-gibbed enemies won't be spraying blood around like crazy, that looked really weird.

I also made the Custom Feature Toggle buttons more effective, although that's more about coding than functionality.

In this version you will not have to use special autoaiming options for sure.

As for compatibility, I'd like to make it Skulltag-compatible, but I've never used this port, so it may be tricky for me.
Making it ZDoom compatible is trickier, as I use lots of PNG sprites but I'll think about it.

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Jekyll Grim Payne said:

There will be lots of gibs, but much less blood. E.g. killed non-gibbed enemies won't be spraying blood around like crazy, that looked really weird.

In this version you will not have to use special autoaiming options for sure.

Good to hear that, the excessive blood spray can cause some serious fps drops on older computers.
Plus, i'm glad that i won't need to set that sv_smartautoaim, it's real annoying to see that message on the screen.

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