Mutiny [Community Project]

Phobus said:

I'm interested in trying this project. Anybody looking for a partner?

Want to work with me on Laboratory?

Yeah, sure TraceOfSpades. Has any work been done on it yet, or is it just a planned map at the moment?

EDIT: Just checked the thread - are we planning on using what Archie has abandoned?

Woooww! Nice job KevinHEZ and dt_!!

This is a pretty awesome map. I also noticed the cacodemons and pain elementals in that particular part of the map. There may be some impassable or monster blocking lines that are keeping them from flying over towards the player.

I'm gonna agree with gaspe that this map is very hitscanner heavy. Even playing very carefully, I had my health chipping away pretty bad and I died many times from things I felt I had little control over. I think this map could benefit from swapping many of the shotgun guys and zombie men for other monsters. The chaingun guys are good though! I don't think it would hurt the map too badly if you gave the player some armor and some guns a little earlier. You could add a secret area in the start area with some good stuff to make the player a bit more of a bullet sponge.

I think some of the monsters could benefit better from being presented via monster closet, teleport ambush, or insta-raising floors to catch the player by surprise. I'm not gonna go too heavily into detail with that right now though.

I'm also gonna agree with Getsu Fune about a cyberdemon just before the exit. That would really make it pretty climactic. The Cyberdemon could help smother the archviles, but I wonder how exciting it would be if there were 5 archviles + a cyberdemon instead :D

Phobus said:

Yeah, sure TraceOfSpades. Has any work been done on it yet, or is it just a planned map at the moment?

EDIT: Just checked the thread - are we planning on using what Archie has abandoned?

Negative. I have something in the works. Email me at BlackSabbath101890@gmail.com.

@KevinHEZ:

I liked Breaching the Unknown. The design is very good, recalling that of Firewall for the use of the black void.

The beginning is quite difficult. Whatever direction I take, I get a lot of damage (and even death).

At the end the best is to get the rocket launcher (ok, there is the arrow indicating the direction), then taking the red key and finally you can move toward the bigger area.

Problem is the first areas (the beginning and the red key area) are quickly forgotten after you enter the main area, and they seem to be disconnected areas. Is there a way to connect better?

I was often in desperate need for health packs. Something more would be better.

Last three Archviles are easily avoided by running, maybe putting some more monsters to keep you busy while the AVs do thier job in resurrection monsters?



@AD_79 & Corsair:

I sent you PM in the last days, without having answers. Did you get the PM or they got lost in the server exchange?

@40oz: There are so many cool stuff in the texture pack, will it be available for public use after the project is released?

Angry Saint said:

@AD_79 & Corsair:

I sent you PM in the last days, without having answers. Did you get the PM or they got lost in the server exchange?

Yeah I got the PM, sorry for not responding yet, I've been a little busy with mapping thingies \ o /

Angry Saint said:

@AD_79 & Corsair:

I sent you PM in the last days, without having answers. Did you get the PM or they got lost in the server exchange?

Got the PM, no worries with that. But been too busy to focus properly on mapping.

CorSair said:

Got the PM, no worries with that. But been too busy to focus properly on mapping.

Can I still count on you or let's invite a third mapper for our map?

TraceOfSpades said:

Negative. I have something in the works. Email me at BlackSabbath101890@gmail.com.

Ok - I'll wait until next week before diving in on this - I've got something pretty important coming up on Wednesday. Then I should be good for almost all of August before anything else gets in the way.

While Corsair is working on the map, I've created this area... always playing with the "curve linedef" tool:



Here some screenshots:

@TraceOfSpades: Heh I meant to comment earlier, that map looks very cool! I too noticed the wall texture being used as a floor, which shouldn't be possible in Limit Removing. I'm glad you were able to fix it. I think something like RROCK18 might be a decent substitute. Can't wait to play it!

@gaspe: Yes, Mutiny resources will be uploaded to /idgames for public use after Mutiny is complete. I'm glad you're enjoying it :D

@Angry Saint: That looks pretty sweet! I still have a lot to learn with the curve linedef tool, so its cool to see you using it in a nice way :D

@everyone: OP is currently up to date :P

Breaching the Unknown V2 (i still like the name *sadface*):

http://www.mediafire.com/download/voa9ye3q33l8gtj/MUTxxV2_KevinHEZ_dt_.wad

dt_ did the fixes and added some stuff he wanted, and i made some changes of my own too (not what he did).

Hey everyone, I've got a bit of a concern. I'm getting hints that the progress on peoples maps are stagnating. I've got quite a few mappers of whom I've heard no progress updates on, and others who are itching to map while they are waiting patiently for their partners who are feeling a creative block.

nxGangrel and I have recently decided to start a new map from scratch for MAP15: The Brain with a new plan, seeing as though I've been dragging my feet on the map we started with and I was getting sick of being fixated on me not pulling my weight. As we work on the new one we will talk a bit about which one we preferred working on and submit our better one for testing.

The new map is planned with a little more detail this time. It now lets us section off our own work zones so we can both work comfortably on different parts of the map without stepping on each others toes. Also were cutting down the amount of time we spend with each turn to roughly a few hours a day per turn. I think its important that we pass the map back and forth as frequently as possible so we can each see what the other is doing before it goes too far in one mapper's direction. I also suspect this will speed up the mapping process exponentially now that were free to work in our own spaces. I even think there's a possibilty that we can both work on the same map at the same time by cutting and pasting the seperate parts of the map we'd agree to work on, but I don't think our map is exactly at that stage yet.

Anyway, id like to conduct a bit of surveying on peoples maps. Do you think working collaboratively is helping or hurting your map for this project? How long do you spend on your map at a time? What's your mapping process? Did you discuss it with your partner ahead of time? Are you able to communicate with your partner often?

I'd like to take the opportunity to discuss the best ways to work with a partner and identify trouble areas that keep your map from moving along or being the best that it can be in hopes this could open up communication between mappers and help boost the mapping efficiency of the members in this project.

For me, collaboration has taken me out of my mapping comfort zone and really got my imagination going- it's been a great help to me in my view. Kevin's a great mapping buddy, keeping really great communication but at the same time not being afraid to say if something's not right or to suggest an idea.

For us (I arrived a bit late to the mutiny party) Kevin had started a map, and had what turned out to be about 50% of the layout done. Not sure about the time taken by him to make this half, but he sent me the map and I had it for a whole week to make the other section. We then both played it, and made changes as necessary, with me being largely responsible for thing placement/monster gameplay encounters throughout and Kevin taking the lead with detailing, atmosphere, setting the initial theme of the map and other awesome things like the music supplied with the map and naming it (which I really struggle with for some reason)

To sum up I'd say its crucial to keep good communication, listen to the other guy you're working with, and only have 1 person working on the map at any one time to avoid a standoff between partners about whose changes will need to be 'redone'

Also, I can help out with any other maps in the project if necessary as mine and kev's map is 95% done

I'd say equal parts distraction and lack of communication: on top of school I've also been working on other maps sporadically and haven't had time to focus. As for communication, I'm not 100% sure what vision Xaser has for this map and I never seem to be able to catch him on IRC. I'll try later today and see if we can throw some ideas around.

If you've got some questions and it's something that doesn't require immediate back-and-forth, please PM me via DW or IRC (the latter is preferable really). I can't monitor the IRC channel constantly, and work+timezone differences will make it a bit difficult to go 'live'. Sorry for the constant asynchronousness. :(

My partner (Corsair) is quite busy with RL issues so at the moment the map is 75% mine and 25% his. We work one week for person, more or less, but as I cannot stay without mapping I keep producing areas for my map (see some post above my photos on a area I have created). At the moment we work in different sections of the level, with little crossing. He added some interesting detail in a area I created - more things to learn for me. But I have to say I liked what he put in the map so I am confident the final result will be good.

I think for the above mentioned reason, that is he is busy, we are not in constant touch... but maybe this will change in the future (I hope).

Regading 40oz your worrying for the little progress... I think it is to take into account that many mappers will sign, do some stuff and then disappear completely. Maybe Mutiny will not be a 15 level map but maybe it's ok also to have only 5 or 10 maps which are complete and very good.

EDIT: if you have 10 mappers working on 10 maps, and you have an abandon rate of 20%... you end with 8 mappers working on 8 maps. But if you have 20 mappers working on 10 maps, and the same abandon rate of 20%... that is 4 mappers, if the mappers abandoning are not from the same team, you put in danger the creation of 4 maps, not 2 any more.

Yeah Travers and I are have the same issue. We are communicating but I think it would be tenfold better if we could catch each other on IRC. Due to our time some issues this has not been possible which is a real shame as the main thing I was hoping to get from this project was an open dialogue for inspiration and assurances in the design process.

How we've worked together was a brief discussion of our map concept, mechanics wise - which took a few days due to using PMs. I then made a proof of concept stub for what is the start area and central gimmick of the map (I shared this a few weeks ago on IRC) and since then Travers has added quite a lot of the new content. His areas have really bulked up the map to the point it could be all there structure-wise for a small-medium size level. It did take the mapflow in a different direction than I had intended with my proof of concept but I spent an evening getting my head around it and I have works out a mapflow that I think works without making drastic changes to his work or compromising my initial vision.

We are roughly holding the map for a week at a time each, though we're not working on it constantly during that time. For the rest of my week I'm going to work on gameplay and hopefully send something back that is ready for polishing thing placement and building aesthetics.

When additional mappers were being offered my intial thoughts were that this would make the process too crowded and I still think two hands are enough - but what I think would be really useful is another mapper being available on IRC to run ideas past or check if something is working. Small stuff that can't really wait for a PM reply. Next time I'm mapping I'll see if there's a willing volunteer on #mutiny.

working with cupcaketactics has been fun so far, I love his wacky detailing style and his interconnected layouts are a challenge to work with (in a good way). I'm very confident that between me him and scifista we'll have a great map :) the only issue is that I can be a very slow mapper sometimes so I worry that I don't output enough, or I take too long to implement something. it's a learning experience

Hey purist, I'm rarely on the irc, but if you ever need someone to talk to real quick about something, especially during this time, 1-4am EST, just send me a pm and tell me to get on.

I like to think a lot about what I map and I was hoping for a similar experience as you, with the inspiration and assurances and much more communication, at least one message per day. But I guess I'm just into discussions, lol.


I think having more hands on it is actually really cool. With map01 we have me, 40, and Jimmy and it's cool seeing everybody add their touch to it. I think that if we all communicated more, though, we would all grow as mappers, since everybody focuses on slightly different things.

40 and nxgangrel are trying out where each does like 3-4 hours each day and then pass it along, working out from a central hub and designing off-shoots that they connect later/as they go. It sounds like a good way to go, as long as all members are actively mapping each night.

On the flip side, it would also be interesting to have a team similar to what AD and Breezeep did where each has a specific role. Then having more hands on it would be a good thing, so each person could focus solely on what they like or are good at. Sort of assembly-line it along, lol.

Oh, also, I want to get people's opinion on this:

That's 6 - 9am BST Fonze, so not exactly sociable hours for me. I will just see who's around next time I'm on and if it's the usual retrobates I'll pick on one of them.

With PM's it's not just the frequency - the format just doesn't allow for the back and forth type of discussion that is useful in these situations.

Reducing to hourly timeslots probably wouldn't work based on how frequently we contact. It might be best if we just PM when we know we'll have some free time to map and the file can be handed over.

So, me and scifista42 haven't made too much progress with our map (Generator), but to speed thing up a little, we'd like to ask if someone would join in to help us out. PM me if you're interested.

Hey y'all, not to bump this thread for what may be a dumb question, but I'd really like to see what others think about that Mutiny sign. I'm not looking for anyone to stroke my... ego, lol (tbh, idk if it's seen as cheesy); I'm just wondering if it should stay or go.

If it's tough to see, it's 3 lines each separated by 1 pixel to allow for the "Exit" sign to be formed into something else. Hard to tell in-game unless viewed from obscure angles. I've made the area somewhat dark to help camouflage the effects of obscure viewing angles and the area you can see it is pretty small.

Let me know your thoughts; it's a touch I like, but it's more important what others think. Wouldn't be that big a deal to remove it.

The sign is excellent.

Why not put it also like it's sprayed on some walls? I think something similar would fit very well in the city maps and the overall theme of the project.

Wow ty, I didn't know if itd be cheesy or not.

It would be kinda cool if it were added in as it's own texture or added as a patch to some copied textures, so the viewing angles wouldn't skew it and it could be used in more open environments, but if it stays like this y'all could just copy+paste it from this map to yours when we submit it. If you want it now just pm me and I'll send it to you.

*Edit*
I just thought about that Gaspe might be referring to making it look like graffiti, that's a cool idea too, but would be very time-consuming to achieve using the textures at hand. We would need new textures devoted to graffiti, similar to if we gave the "Mutiny" signs their own textures. I like the idea of graffiti though, I wanted to go for that since why would a military base make a sign that says "mutiny?" It seems like it should be graffiti, but given its the name of the wad I think it's ok. So I settled for this since I had experience making signs from the "exit" sign.

Still, I must echo what Gaspe said, "graffiti textures!"

Breaching the Unknown v4

Hey dt_ and KevinHEZ, I played and recorded demos of v4 of your map in skill 2 and skill 4

From the looks of it, I really have nothing to comment on how the map looks, since its a beautiful looking map! I think it could use some help in the gameplay department, as I felt the map wasn't as easy as it should be on skill 2, and the monster placement in general gave the monsters a pretty strategic advantage over the player in most situations, in a way that isn't very fun for the player. I don't wanna dissect every encounter, but I do want to specify that I felt that the monster closets room towards the end of the map shortly before the final battle before the exit was the strongest part of the map. The buildup and with the large room with few monsters, the soul sphere, and the switch that floods the monsters in was an amazing payout. I think smaller scale versions of that model would really benefit the colored key pickups in this map. You may be able to see in the demo where some of the weaker parts are. I personally dont think it would hurt the map if some of the monsters that were ignored and safely picked off later after the high-pressure battles were simply removed entirely.

From playing your map, I've come up with some advice that I think would really benefit your map if you keep these ideas in mind while you work on the thing placement some more.

• Traps are more fun when the consequences come after the reward. Give the player free passes to nice weapons or powerups, then use teleport ambushes, raising monsters out of the floor, or monster closets to force the player to use them. A nice gun/keycard/powerup with heavy defense blocking it and no repercussions from getting it is kind of a tease and not very exciting for the player.
  
  
• The map should get progressively harder as the player gets closer to the end. In the map's current state, the beginning is the trickiest part, because of the pistol start and the three different directions to go, there's a good bit of monsters to deal with in order to get to the guns, but no guns to kill them with from the start. The player accumulates lots of armor, rockets, cells, and weapons as he gets closer to the end, so the density and danger of the monsters should probably get exponentially larger towards the end to compensate.
  
  
• Hitscanner monsters can be used in large quantities, but they're more fun for the player if he/she can see all of them grouped up as one amorphous threat, rather than scattered and able to damage the player from multiple angles at the same time. They can hurt the player quickly without them having a chance to run away, so its important when using them that the player doesn't have any trouble finding them initially so the player isn't ripped to shreds unexpectedly. (You can put them in plain open view, or shine or blink lights on them to get the player's attention)
  
  
• Diluting the different species of monsters to about two or three species per room will allow you to use more monsters in each room without much monster infighting. It will also be easier for the player to focus on who needs to be killed first (giving the player less to be concious about while playing is good to keep in mind for lesser skill levels)
  
  
• Put like monsters in groups closer together -- This is what gives the super shotgun and rocket launcher its kick. When the monsters are far apart, the player can't deal as much damage per shot, and depends on the player to pick them off one at a time, or herd the ground level monsters into a group on his/her own, which takes time and gives monsters an unfair advantage.
  
  
• More monsters doesnt make the map harder. In some circumstances larger monster quantities can actually make the map easier. The circumstances where lesser monsters is easier is when it helps reduce the chances of a player getting pinned into a corner where he can't maneuver around or away from them. Other than that, monsters infighting, the super shotgun's spread, and the rocket launcher's splash are major factors that crush large quantities of monsters faster than when there are fewer of them. When balancing for lesser skill levels, its much more important to reduce the pressure of a given situation so the player isn't expected to react as fast, dodge as much, or kill at a fast enough rate. This is better done in two ways: Giving the player a head start, by giving the player extra ammunition and armor, an easily reachable weapon with no strings attached, and larger health items to forgive mistakes at the very beginning of the level. The other way is to trade the monsters that are more likely to damage the player for monsters with slower and more predictable attacks. You can swap a hard revenant for an easy Hell Knight or Hell Baron fairly, even though they can take more damage. The fact that the player should be more likely to kill them without getting hurt is the operating factor in making the level easier.
  

Let me know if you'd like more clarity on some of the things I said. I don't mean to imply that your map was too hard or not hard enough, but I think there are definitely some ways in which monsters could be used more effectively for specific gameplay purposes.

Some progress screenshots from Map 03: The Slums. Gangrel is going to work on it this weekend, but so far this is what I have. I've altered various things based on difficulty setting, have changed the map into regular Doom 2 format, and got creative with some textures (As seen in the "Ave Satanas" screenshot).

So, here are eleven screenshots.

By the way, the difficulty setting in the screenshots is Ultra Violence.