Hardest and/or most difficult map and/orWAD?

I don't think FDA is really that idealistic tbh. If you have a non-linear map and somebody happens to stumble upon better path with more goodies, does that tell anything about being better at doom? Or somebody finds exit faster, does that mean he is better survivalist? If you get competitive about time in FDA, luck plays a factor just like in anything else you can do to compare between people in doom imo. If anything, the "COMPET-N" as you put it is actually much more accurate at that than you're making it ought to be, because all players are on the same boat and the comparability of time is a simple criterion.

Chillax is basically a plagarized version of Phmlspd, but with more maps.

I'm not really connecting what actually happened in that no chance demo with how you described it. I watched the demo for no chance first before ever trying to beat it and even watching the video exhaustively, I don't really see anything that looks like its too difficult for me to do, but in practice I still have a lot of trouble beating that map. Demos aren't like an instructional walkthrough strategy guide to a puzzle solving game, its more like watching someone play guitar hero.

I don't see the appeal of giving the player little to no health and ammo as a way of increasing difficulty. The point of a doom map is being fun first, challenging second.

Neither approach is perfect, I give you that, and there probably are no "ideal" maps that meet all the criteria I laid out before :

A truly hard map (as in combat-hard, not puzzles/switch hunting), must contain elements of ammo/health/armor starvation, player movement restraining (the only "fair" way to take away the player's mobility advantage), no chance to abuse/fuck around with architecture for cover/disruption, frequent ambushes, and a tendency not to forgive even minor mistakes. In other words, it must be designed to preclude almost everything on this list :-p

However, a truly hard map must NOT have an "easier" way out by adopting a particular strategy: then the map will only be hard for newbies that don't know the tricks yet. No, a hard map must be hard for everyone, everytime, no matter how many times he's played it or even completed it, and no particular strategy must be too effective.

Or are there? I don't know, honestly. For all the flaws that FDA might have, there's nothing that can convince me that ploughing away at one particular map until you have discovered everything there's to be discovered about it and stretched the limits of human performance makes one a "Master of Doom" in an absolute sense. There even was a famous demoer that claimed, more or less "I'm not really that good, it's just practice, folks", perhaps in a moment of lucid humbleness. That very same persons could die miserably on the first random FDA you put before him, for all we know.

Basically, the OP's premise has no definite answer, because there's no definite answer to "who's the best Doom player", and a "best" Doom player is just as much of an idealistic abstraction as a "hardest" Doom map. Because, who else, but the best, could play a hard map and win?

You sure are using a lot of words to dance around the fact that you're claiming Nochance isn't difficult but aren't providing any evidence to demonstrate that you can beat it at all, much less easily.

j4rio said:

I don't think FDA is really that idealistic tbh. If you have a non-linear map and somebody happens to stumble upon better path with more goodies, does that tell anything about being better at doom? Or somebody finds exit faster, does that mean he is better survivalist? If you get competitive about time in FDA, luck plays a factor just like in anything else you can do to compare between people in doom imo. If anything, the "COMPET-N" as you put it is actually much more accurate at that than you're making it ought to be, because all players are on the same boat and the comparability of time is a simple criterion.

Agreed. FDAs are only indicative of skill, not decisive. The "hard data" like time, count of deaths and any other criterion are actually "soft", vague and requiring expert interpretation. I had the most marvelous chance to see this in motion when you and ribbiks tested Fireking. It is a semi-challenging slaughtermap with a few nasty surprises, but nothing really too taxing for a seasoned fan of slaughter. You played like a madman, jumping into situations headfirst without knowing what's ahead, which led to a much faster and visually appealing show - despite restarts stemming from a couple of deaths. Ribbiks chose to be a slow moving, extremely methodical "cleaner" who abused every dirty trick he spotted. It was very valuable for us creators of the map, but it would be a somewhat poor show for bloodthirsty general audience. Two entirely different, incommesurable styles chosen on purpose by two very skilled players. While Ribbiks had the faster time in the end and uncovered more weak spots of the map, jario's playthrough had more panache. I'm quite surprised Maes, being a stereotypical Greek and whatnot, doesn't value playing with big steel balls as an important "competitive" FDA metric. :P

Cynical said:

You sure are using a lot of words to dance around the fact that you're claiming Nochance isn't difficult but aren't providing any evidence to demonstrate that you can beat it at all, much less easily.

I was hoping that you, of all people, would appreciate my cynical approach to COMPET-N demos in general.

Sure, if I decided to waste a few hours of my life training specifically for that particular mapset, I might even beat that demo, who knows. But, cynical (heh) as it sounds, pleasing you (or anyone else) isn't a good enough motivation for me to undertake it, sorry. Much less so because I didn't claim anything regarding my own skill. The video only proves that beating that map is far from impossible, and if someone can do it, someone else, somewhere, can also do it, perhaps just a bit better. But, as they say, this is left as an exercise to the reader ;-)

So, in the end, the only correct answer to entire thread is Mu.

dew said:

I'm quite surprised Maes, being a stereotypical Greek and whatnot, doesn't value playing with big steel balls as an important "competitive" FDA metric. :P

Err....did you notice something about the author of this collection of dirty Dooming tricks? And I can personally guarantee you that I'm a "teacher who does as he teaches" ;-)

Maes said:

I was hoping that you, of all people, would appreciate my cynical approach to COMPET-N demos in general.

Sure, if I decided to waste a few hours of my life training specifically for that particular mapset, I might even beat that demo, who knows. But, cynical (heh) as it sounds, pleasing you (or anyone else) isn't a good enough motivation for me to undertake it, sorry. Much less so because I didn't claim anything regarding my own skill. The video only proves that beating that map is far from impossible, and if someone can do it, someone else, somewhere, can also do it, perhaps just a bit better. But, as they say, this is left as an exercise to the reader ;-)

You're still dancing around the point.

Fuck trying to beat the time in that demo. Fuck even getting a max; a simple UV-speed exit would prove your point. The fact is, you're saying that a notoriously difficult map isn't very difficult, and that's a claim that requires some fairly major proof. It seems a lot more likely that you've never even played the map, and just watched a demo, said "meh, I can do that", and left it at that, without even really understanding why the demo was so impressive.

You providing demo of a simple UV clear would show that you can beat the level and aren't just talking shit; otherwise, you sound like this guy (if you don't feel like clicking the link, it's a guy who claimed that he 1CC'd Ikaruga on his first attempt ever but was outed as having never even beaten the second boss).

Cynical said:

The fact is, you're saying that a notoriously difficult map isn't very difficult

Can you quote the exact post and passage I said that? I promise I won't edit anything while you're looking for something that just ain't there ;-)

But let me spare you the trouble. If you were referring to this:

Even Nochance, despite the apparently overwhelming start, allows you to simply run past everybody and take your time somewhere else on the map, it doesn't force you to make a stand right then and there.

aka the only time I ever referred to Nochance, well, I don't think this can be interpreted as "I can beat this with my hands tied behind my back". It referred to a very specific tactic adopted at the start, which, had the player chosen to do so, would allow him to clear a "safe spot" with some patience. Obviously, not the player's intention in that demo, since it was an UV-MAX demo, not a "snaking turtling Doomguy bastard" one ;-)

I do however still stand by my broader statement that a "truly hard map" (which, through the wonders of this thread, has been demonstrated to be an unreachable ideal) should not allow such shortcuts, not even minor ones. It should be just you and the monsters, and it should all be about how well you can dodge and aim at close quarters. But that's, like, just my opinion, dude. You don't have to mount a campaign against it...do you?

Cynical said:

You providing demo of a simple UV clear would show that you can beat the level and aren't just talking shit;

You know, that would actually make sense if I had actually claimed that I can beat that level with my hands tied behind my back or something, which I didn't. Ah, words! Words! Those ineffable, eluside words!

So there's simply nothing to dance around, no fence to hop over, no projectile to dodge here. Also, by your logic, I could arbitrarily ask you to provide an UV clear demo too, because, ya know, a man shouldn't call another man on something that he isn't prepared to do himself (...and stuff) ;-)

Why would you say

Even Nochance, despite the apparently overwhelming start, allows you to simply run past everybody and take your time somewhere else on the map, it doesn't force you to make a stand right then and there.

in a thread about "hardest and/or most difficult map[s]" if it wasn't to indicate that the map isn't really that hard? Especially given what the start of that map is. What, do you think Death-Destiny intended players to say "hmm.... I've got an SSG vs. a Cyb, multiple AVs (with no cover), a PE, and a fucking horde of other trash with no room to work with... yeah, I think I'll sit around and fight"? It seems clear to me that the mapper intended the player to get the fuck out of Dodge.

Also, clearing a safe spot won't really help you that much in Nochance. It's a Death-Destiny wad, with all of the lock-ins, snares, traps, and "fuck you"s that you'd expect out of any other D-D wad. Except about a hundred times harder in Nochance.

Finally, saying

I do however still stand by my broader statement that a "truly hard map" (which, through the wonders of this thread, has been demonstrated to be an unreachable ideal) should not allow such shortcuts, not even minor ones. It should be just you and the monsters, and it should all be about how well you can dodge and aim at close quarters.

is absurd. Route-planning and strategizing are a part of the skill in Doom. A "truly hard map" should endeavor to test these skills just as much as aiming and dodging.

You seem to have taken this too personally, Cynical, and IMO a good portion of the thread should be split or helled, at this point, because it's about anything BUT hard maps.

FWIW I believe I could finish a map such as Nochance, but at my own pace, certainly not with the intention of beating a dedicated UV max demo. And I don't think anyone would actually watch the 3 hour LMP of me being a snaking bastard, not even you, so why do it?

Maes said:

You seem to have taken this too personally, Cynical, and IMO a good portion of the thread should be split or helled, at this point, because it's about anything BUT hard maps.

FWIW I believe I could finish a map such as Nochance, but at my own pace, certainly not with the intention of beating a dedicated UV max demo. And I don't think anyone would actually watch the 3 hour LMP of me being a snaking bastard, not even you, so why do it?

FWIW, I would most definitely watch it...lol Just because I'm messed in the head like that.

40oz said:

If your looking for some fun stuff to watch, id highly recommend playing demos from the dsda demo archive or the speed demos forum on this site using prboom for the best quality viewing experience. But if you must use YouTube, search for "Doom UV-max" for the best category of stuff.

Nochance
Sunder
Degrassi
Supernib
Holy hell
Deus vult
Sf2011
Sf2012
Stardate 20x6
Swim with the whales
Journey to hell
Survive in hell

are all good stuff. The later maps of Speed of Doom, Scythe, Scythe 2, Resurgence, Sunlust (just came out!) Hellbound, Going Down, and Plutonia 2 are all good watches too!

I've checked these out and really liked Stardate 20x6 and loved Swim with the Whales. In SwtW, map 3, do you know the name of the music played for that level by any chance? That music is the most chill I've ever heard for a map in Doom.

Chewyninja69 said:

In SwtW, map 3, do you know the name of the music played for that level by any chance? That music is the most chill I've ever heard for a map in Doom.

That would be "Water World" from Donkey Kong Country 3.

HavoX said:

That would be "Water World" from Donkey Kong Country 3.

Someone had said that in the comments section on Youtube, I just didn't believe them. Thanks for the heads-up.

I had a lot of fun with Slayer
And the first HR, of course, because I like classic map design (doors & corridors)

None of these are near to be "the hardest" anyway.

Maes said:

Sure, if I decided to waste a few hours of my life training specifically for that particular mapset, I might even beat that demo, who knows. But, cynical (heh) as it sounds, pleasing you (or anyone else) isn't a good enough motivation for me to undertake it, sorry.

So what's your motivation to spend a few days trying to poorly get your reasoning across in this thread?

Mu.

Heh this thread is a complete trainwreck, just like any of the previous threads where the same question was asked. As you can clearly see, there's absolutely no consensus, even among very skilled players who have actually beaten most of the mentioned titles. I would just recommend not dismissing any of the wads, and check them out by yourself and form your own opinion. As of more chillax demos, Ancalagon has some on his youtube channel, and i've recently made a few crappy maxes. Link to my youtube can be found in teh profile.

I'd say okuplok's untitled2 holds the cake for being theoretically possible, playtested and balanced (EXCEPT FOR THAT ONE FUCKING ROOM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd8e6zS5Zuo), yet completely undoable in practice. Even with itemrespawn and 3 lives it took us with WaTaKiD several months to "almost beat" the entire thing. And strats used offline are mostly completely different and much more difficult to pull off, with only a few exceptions.

I've checked these out and really liked Stardate 20x6 and loved Swim with the Whales.

You should check the freshly released Sunlust out then, since it was made by the same author in collaboration with another great mapper. Ribbiks includes sources of his music in readme files btw, which is convenient.

10 Sectors map 08 on UV-Max is pissing me off. You gotta be lucky as hell to survive the attempt to telefrag the final 3 Cyberdemons.

No one mentions swift death? seriously, try to beat that last level on UV. I dare ya!

Protester said:

No one mentions swift death? seriously, try to beat that last level on UV. I dare ya!

I played it up to map 19 but kinda stopped there. I'll pick it back up sooner or later, but a very difficult wad overall. I've become UV-Max oriented as well. I'm not satisfied until every secret is found and every enemy is killed. If I'm not mistaken, items don't really make a shit do they?

Crusades by Richard Wiles is bloody hard as heck with it's limited ammo and health. But I have beaten it on UV with savegames, took some time though to do it.

Enemy-wise, Holy Hell takes the cake. Took me a solid 4 hours to beat that god damn map.

Hours of fun, nonetheless.