Whitemare demos [-complevel 2 and 9]

DSDA page

Note from Maribo:

As per discussions about wads that have a mixed compatibility, it is fine to run Whitemare on cl2 or cl9. Map08 and Map12 are the only maps that use Boom features, so cl9 should be used for these, but for the other maps, both are fine. A D2ALL will have to be done on cl9 to account for the two aforementioned maps.

old Grazza note below:

Back to Memfis's original post:

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As one of the authors of Whitemare, I'm proudly starting new demo thread. :)

Here is MAP09 UV-SPEED in 0:29.

wht09-29.zip

didierbertrand said:

note to the webmaster:
the attachement doesn't work.
when i try to upload the file, it is an "unknown" file.impossible
to open it, and extract the lmp or txt file.
it's not the first time that happen.

It's because the attachment has a space in the file name. Try using underscores instead (the _ character).

didierbertrand
It could be better. :)

Also tried map01.

PS. Already may be more better demo. I lost a few seconds while fighting spectres and pain elemental. Btw, looks like there is place where may be glide.

wtmr_01_135.zip

A question for the authors:

whitemar.txt said:
Map 12 don't work correctly with -complevel 2

So regarding map12, what complevel is recommended? I played this map with -complevel 2, and reached the exit no problem without anything being obviously wrong. Is it just some cosmetic thing?

Edit: OK, I'm guessing it needs -complevel 9 (Boom behaviour) so the blue key isn't accessible too early. Correct?

Map07 UVmax in 0:46

Shortly after recording this I found this thread finding out that theres already a faster run of map 7(cool demo didierbertrand) but I'm still posting this up :P

wtmr07-046.zip

Edit: OK, I'm guessing it needs -complevel 9 (Boom behaviour) so the blue key isn't accessible too early. Correct?

Yes. For the rest of the maps -complevel 2 is the best decision.

Grazza
Yes, you right. Also there is some over problems.

Edit.
Founded another non-compatible level, map08. Play it with complevel 9.

Hmm, so the wad wasn't fully tested before release with -complevel 2. How was it tested?

If it was only tested systematically with Boom behaviour, then it might make sense to recommend that it is played with -complevel 9. And if it wasn't systematically tested at all, then recorders should be warned of this fact more clearly before they put a lot of time into recording demos that may turn out to be incompatible.

Map 10 UV Max in 0:36

wm10-036.zip

Map 31 UV Pacifist/Max/Speed in 1:55

wm31p155.zip

Archi said:

It could be better. :)

Can't it always...

Map 01 Pacifist in 1:15

wm01p115.zip

Whitemare map01 UV-Speed in 1:24

wm01-124.zip

Whitemare, Map31 UV-Speed in 1:39

wm31_uvspeed_139.zip

Map07 Max in 0:32

wm07-032.zip

Quick question regarding the cl of this wad, the wiki says it's Boom compatible. I recorded the map below in CL9, do I need to re-do it in CL2?

Map09 UV-Speed in 0:27.77

wm09-027.zip

16 hours ago, DreamTimes said:

Quick question regarding the cl of this wad, the wiki says it's Boom compatible. I recorded the map below in CL9, do I need to re-do it in CL2?

This was briefly discussed a while back in the Discord, personally I'd use cl9 for this wad since cl2 breaks MAP08.

I spoke to 4shock about this earlier today, and he said it would be fine to do cl9 for all of Whitemare. This rule is probably something that will follow for any other wads with mixed complevel maps, just for the sake of sanity and consistency. I've updated the OP and title to reflect this.

1 hour ago, Maribo said:

I spoke to 4shock about this earlier today, and he said it would be fine to do cl9 for all of Whitemare. This rule is probably something that will follow for any other wads with mixed complevel maps, just for the sake of sanity and consistency. I've updated the OP and title to reflect this.

tbh id prefer to run cl2 maps in cl2 and just screw the broken monsters/secrets (not sure if this applies to whitemare, but unholy realms comes to mind)

11 hours ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

tbh id prefer to run cl2 maps in cl2 and just screw the broken monsters/secrets (not sure if this applies to whitemare, but unholy realms comes to mind)

If I'm being honest that doesn't sound like a good idea because it would make movie runs impossible, since none of the maps break in CL9 but some do in CL2 why not run it in CL9?

Just for clarification I tested Map08 with CL2 and I couldn't get the yellow key (that map has weird progression/secrets so I thought it was my problem with either skipping a line or messing up something) but then I loaded up Map12 and it uses some kind of bridge that doesn't raise and makes the map unbeatable, not broken monster closets or secrets, just impossible to beat

I just hate the boom weapon stuff 😅 but yea if the maps unplayable in cl2 ya def gotta run in cl9. 

The entire conundrum here is quite complicated, and I don't have a clear answer, there's sort of a lot of factors to consider:

• Many WADs are merely compilations of stuff, I think including Whitemare to some extent; in such a case, a D2ALL is a bit of a forced category, as the maps were never intended to be played in order anyway, but still, the possibility exists, so it feels natural to allow cl9 on any map, but cl2 might also be fine if the maps work with it. However, something like Mutiny, which was meant to be a cohesive release is a different case, as continuous is more of an intended offering on part of the compiler there.
• That said, a map working with cl2 doesn't mean it's intended. There's no real way I could ever allow, for example, a Sunlust map 17 run on cl2 that abuses the all ghosts glitch on the sector 11 floor; it's a bit absurd given the WAD is very clearly Boom-only, so there are cases where the complevel is very specifically defined.
• However, with many cases, especially older WADs, have a very low clarity on what is Boom vs cl2; Boom/MBF are often meant as a shorthand for limit-removing, and the textfiles don't always specify in any real detail what is intended. The SargeBaldy series has many cl2 maps, but each txt indicates Boom only; whether that should be treated as the end-all be-all complevel for running those maps is unclear because I don't think that much thought was even put into that by the compiler, and we may not have the author's input there, so it's very murky in that respect.
• Finally, "works" is a very flexible concept; a map could be completable but unmaxable in cl2 vs Boom, and vice versa. It may not have any Boom actions, but still only work in Boom correctly because of random incompatibilities between the engines. A map could have Boom actions that are purely cosmetic, and therefore arguably work in both. A map could have Boom actions also that aren't reachable or do not function for whatever reason, leading the map to be effectively cl2. Then, there's the different overflows that could completely fuck slaughtermaps with tons of enemies even if they aren't technically Boom (old Sunder, for example, which was funnily enough tested in GZDoom anyway), leading to them being only playable well in Boom, plus the lost soul limit complicates things further where having 50 PEs or something in a map might just indicate Boom in and of itself because they are meant to not be useless.
• Beyond all the above, you may also have to consider when a map was actually made as well. If a map was literally made before Boom was available (likewise for other ports), but it somehow is only maxable with Boom, it is quite clearly not supposed to be run with Boom. However, if it is somehow only completable with Boom, for whatever reason, then it's a weird question if it's valid to run or if the map shouldn't be run at all because it was never in a fixed state in the first place (probably a better case for a fixwad than using a clearly wrong cl).

So, in short, you can see that making a clear judgment on what the fuck you're supposed to do given a WAD in terms of proper compatibility is tricky, and this isn't even taking into account ZDoom, or the fact that DSDA pages as of right now often have a myriad of mutually incompatible demos that are not currently marked, leading to arguable historical precedents for certain cases that may not make sense in retrospect (though most will probably be marked incompatible at some point). TL;DR it's all just a huge mess.

WRT to Whitemare in particular, as mentioned above, it is in some ways just a compilation WAD, so D2ALL, while a valid thing to do on the maps, isn't such a huge concern in some ways. The WAD txt pretty explicitly indicates limit-removing and even mentions cl2 incompatibilities, so cl2 for the maps where it works is probably acceptable. But given the entire WAD also doesn't work with cl2, cl9 is probably fine too, idk. I don't know about stuff like PE/lost soul counts, so that would be something to consider as well, if it affects any maps. And, obviously, as it is limit-removing, overflow abuse would be Othered, probably. But yeah, it's not super clear that you can make a reasonable well-defined judgment call about this WAD.

https://dsdarchive.com/wads/whitemar Map 07 NM-speed in 0:34.37

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4D2uH4jvJM

whitemar07n3437.zip