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scifista42
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MAP30 - Amenthes

I guessed that the final map will not be as extreme slaughter as MAP29, possibly and probably even underwhelming. I was actually glad that I was right. Even though (by my expectation) the map wasn't that "epic", I admit it serves its purpose fine. Ending in a non-annoying way once again. Icon of Sin Amenthes didn't pose as extreme challenge as final bosses in other PWADs do. Just take the lift and a couple shots, don't worry, monsters are spawning slowly and you have plenty of ammo. I've died many times though, because random number generator liked to spawn pain elementals.

Earlier in the map, there was a certain two-pillar puzzle which I couldn't figure out because the pillars didn't lower (I suspected another Zandronum error of self-referencing sectors) so I've used jumping and freelook to shoot one of the switches. Shame that no real combat happened in that area, just a screamer of monsters telefragging each other.

Not a bad map, but as a final one it could have provided more. Of gameplay, I mean. Atmosphere... was there (again, not as strong as in some previous maps, specially since I had weapons and the opposition was low).

---

Overall thoughts: Epic 2 was an enjoyable experience for me. It's got some bad parts, but the good definitely overcome them, thanks to Eternal's ability of creating amazing design, gameplay and atmosphere - even though it seems like he doesn't always decides to do so and don't see it a problem. I think I've said something similar when commenting on the first map too. Thanks to Eternal for this mapset, and thanks to DW Megawad Club for making me to play it!

Old Post 03-31-14 16:06 #
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Magnusblitz
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MAP26: Luxor
92% kills, 1/3 secrets

Not as bad as I feared after seeing the monster count and some of the reviews here. The start is definitely a bit of a grind with the huge swarm of revenants insta-popping from the floor. Luckily, most of the other enemies in the outside area can be ignored and will happily infight with each other. Once inside, some standard corridor affairs before getting to the meat of the map. Definitely some slaughtery gameplay, but nothing too bad. Not a huge fan of the ending area, though - seems like it was set up just to be immensely frustrating to the player (replacement Arch-Viles snipers, lack of ammo, mancubi teleporting right in front of you, spider mastermind replacement, etc...)

Old Post 03-31-14 19:12 #
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dobu gabu maru
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As is the norm, there's no real decisive pick for the club so I'm hesitant on what to choose. D2TWID technically wins with 3 votes (From Demon, Marcaek & Steve), but whitemare 2 is close (with votes from Hurricyclone, Memfis and [partially] Demon as well). I lean often towards those with higher seniority/posts, but it's a touch torn here (especially with Demon camping in both parties), so maybe I should have the voting be between just the two of these? Or perhaps just go with D2TWID if there's no clear choice, seeing as that may bring in the highest number of posters...

Old Post 03-31-14 20:53 #
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cannonball
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My vote (if I was active enough these days) would've have been for Switcheroom as I would have liked to have given the wad a little DWMC time due to it's idgames issues. Whitemare 2 I feel should be held back for a little while due to playing the first one recently and D2TWID has had a lot of attention put on it already, as well as playing through the wad thoroughly already. I guess if down to those two I would side with D2TWID though as it would be nice to play through again.

Old Post 03-31-14 21:21 #
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Magnusblitz
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MAP27: Ammut
100% kills, 0/3 secrets

Another one that wasn't so bad despite the monster count, as a lot of it is trapped in 1) the ridiculously large amount of teleporting chaingunners, and 2) the infamous revenant circle of doom at the end. We see some library here for a nice change of pace from the endless tombs. The two large fights actually aren't super-difficult, just clear out the AVs first then either wait for the hitscanners to off themselves or just run around in circles mashing that BFG trigger on the skeletons.

Not sure if I'll bother finishing up the last two maps (I've already played MAP30 and it's pretty underwhelming).

Old Post 03-31-14 23:43 #
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Demon of the Well
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Yeah, I know, I have a bad habit of indecisiveness. There's little I won't play at least once (although the stuff does exist!), and not much more that I won't play again (this stuff also exists, but so far nobody else has ever really lobbied for any of it, even back before I started posting in these threads).....maybe I need to learn to be pickier, haha. Hell, I used to be, 'back in the day.'

Anyway, when there is no really decisive slant towards a particular WAD or WADs, since Dobu gabu maru is the one that takes the trouble to create the base threads, I reckon he ought to just take the two choices he favors the most (even if they're not necessarily the two most numerically popular selections) and just ask everyone for a final vote between them.

Old Post 03-31-14 23:50 #
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Jaws In Space
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If you guys really want to play it I provide a download link for switcheroom, otherwise it will not be posted until I make a website for it.

Old Post 04-01-14 00:28 #
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plums
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dobu gabu maru said:
As is the norm, there's no real decisive pick for the club so I'm hesitant on what to choose. D2TWID technically wins with 3 votes (From Demon, Marcaek & Steve), but whitemare 2 is close (with votes from Hurricyclone, Memfis and [partially] Demon as well). I lean often towards those with higher seniority/posts, but it's a touch torn here (especially with Demon camping in both parties), so maybe I should have the voting be between just the two of these? Or perhaps just go with D2TWID if there's no clear choice, seeing as that may bring in the highest number of posters...


If there's a split between D2TWID and Whitemare 2, I vote for Whitemare.

Old Post 04-01-14 01:37 #
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Tarnsman
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Voting for D2TWID

Old Post 04-01-14 02:50 #
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dobu gabu maru
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^ haha those two posts tie it up again. I'm sleeping on it and will make the thread in the morning, hoping that maybe we'll have one more poster (Magnus? Veinen? Crusader?) so I can at least lean one way or the other.

Old Post 04-01-14 05:02 #
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Marcaek
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I'd prefer D2WID considering how recent Whitemare was. I did enjoy Whitemare but a full set of new maps as involved as Whitmare was would be pretty tiring IMO.

Shame I didn't get to finish my thoughts on it, was too distracted by real life to continue till now, but I will say that Arctic Heart was my favorite map at least :V

Old Post 04-01-14 05:07 #
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Veinen
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Whitemare 2. I've got a whole bunch of FDAs for the wad and a DWMC-thread would be a good excuse to finally post them heh. Not interested in D2TWID in the slightest anyway so it's an easy decision between the two.

Old Post 04-01-14 05:47 #
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Crusader No Regret
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Map 28: Ogdoad 112% kills, 9/9 secrets, 3 deaths

An exit. I recommend against playing the map in one sitting without saves like I did. The trek is more enjoyable with a few sanity saves. That teleporting cyberdemon at the very end is quite a dick move. On skill 2, there's a mercy invulnerability to deal with it. On higher skills, quick reactions and decent movement skills are pretty much required. Enough BFG shots on hand is also nice to have to deal with it quickly and reduce the time spent dancing with the RNG. Knew I saved plasma for something.

I fully expected to die at the teleporting cyber. Well I did have some deaths, just much earlier in the map. The first cyber got me once and I got mulched at the rocket launcher secret. Had a few close calls. Dozens of chaingunners teleport in after hitting one particular switch and I had moments of single digit health. There was also nearly getting pinned by a revenant and escaping with berserk fist.

While the starting visuals give no hint of the map's inspiration, the first cyber immediately reminded me of a similar setup in Eternal Doom. Then I found an inactive grey skull switch and had a strong feeling where it would come into play. There's a few other improvements from Dark Dome. There are no chaingunners nipping away from high towers where the player can't hit them back and the last key isn't placed in a guaranteed deathtrap.

I only fought one cyber at the yellow key. I guess this is my reward for pecking away at the first cyber once I had access to enough ammo. Combat comes in a variety of flavors from the incidental cannon fodder to ambushes in tight quarters and some heavy firefights. Archviles often show in places where they can do lots of resurrecting. There's enough supplies to handle everything pus there are ways to twist the map geometry to one's advantage with advance knowledge or blind luck.

At this map slot, one's likely to be familiar with how secrets are hidden. There's at least one required path that's concealed like a secret. Some sneaky monster placement at work too such as a revenant placed to intercept anyone who rushes to hit the switch beneath the first cyber's platform.

Old Post 04-01-14 10:00 #
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Rook
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Map 27

A great map, I think - one of the best in the set so far. The real standout thing for me is the aesthetics, which Eternal seems to have taken significantly more time over here than he did with most of the other maps; the style shifts slightly throughout the map, and there are some excellent-looking areas, such as the library, which also play very well also. The level of challenge is also quite well-judged (although as usual I can't comment on pistol starts) with a bit of an escalation when it comes to the final sections. Even these, though, are manageable with a little dexterity and forethought - they're not mindlessly brutal.

I've said it before, but what really stands for me about Epic 2 is its very high level of inconsistency. There are a lot of quite dull filler maps, but when the maps are good they're great. I think this is one of those megawads which would have been incredible if it had not been a megawad at all, but rather a much more focused 10 or 12 map set in the vein of Vanguard.

Old Post 04-01-14 21:00 #
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Veinen
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Map28: Ogdoad

So this is the biggest beast in the mapset in terms of size. I've played it before once but it took me 55 minutes to get through in one piece this time and I thought I even remembered most of the switch locations pretty well. It's an obvious homage to Eternal Doom, one Dark Dome in particular, and if you have played said map you can probably connect the dots on what has to be done pretty quickly. I actually hadn't so I remember being totally clueless when playing this for the first time heh. So yeah, how did Eternal do with his Dark Dome remix attempt?

Well I for one love it. It's huge, it's very confusing and it's not even very tough all things considered but something is definitely done right if it manages to keep me chugging for 55 fucking minutes without getting bored or frustrated. The confusion and the blatant switch hunting are so shamelessly deliberate that suddenly I don't mind trekking through the same corridors over and over again trying to find a way to that one switch I caught a glimpse of through some window at all. One gripe I have with Eternal Doom, an otherwise amazing wad (no, I'm not very picky), was not the switch hunting but the switches and such being very hard to spot which sometimes lead to moments of being completely lost in seemingly simple layouts. Here you are other kinds of lost, akin to the aforementioned Dark Dome admittedly, since now you maybe know where what is but how to get back there is the problem. I can only imagine it being a nightmare to put together an effective route for an UV-Max -demo. Perhaps I will attempt it myself someday, certainly an intriguing challenge...

While exploration and "the journey" is in the spotlight here, combat is quite enjoyable and thought-out as well. It's probably for the better that it isn't brutally difficult due to the sheer size of the level. While most of the map is your fairly standard Eternal-styled Epc 2 combat, there are enough interesting situations to keep the player honest. Like the Arch-Viles that pop up here and there, the further away from the player it teleports the more interesting it gets. There's also the token ep3 Chaingunner horde which teleports in at one point that can do some damage since they like to spread out and creep up on you when you least expect it. Multiple Cybers make appearances also, most of which aren't positioned extremely threateningly though if you pay some attention but they're still justified additions and none feel unnecessary obstacles per se.

So, what we have here is a welll done Eternal Doom homage and a great map in it's own right. Perhaps a bit of an acquired taste though what with all the switch hunting and certainly not something one would replay too often because of the size only. Two maps to go and the next one is an another homage of a sorts although an entirely different kind of animal altogether.

Old Post 04-02-14 00:21 #
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Magnusblitz
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MAP28: Ogdoad
99% kills, 4/9 secrets

Ah, glad I decided to keep playing, as this is one of my favorite maps in the set - recognized it instantly from the last time I played this set. I'm usually not one for switch hunts, but I do like it here, because it's more about exploring the whole map instead of just linearly trying to find the one switch that unlocks the next area. There's enough combat here to provide some fun, without any frustrating battles. My only complaint is that it's a bit of a pain to discover some of the red switches as you go along, but be unable to activate them, needing to wait until you reach the red key area - then forgetting where the original ones are. You can kinda tell from the minimap sometimes (at least in ZDoom, the unopened switches show up as a different color because of the door that opens) but it can still be tough. Also, retracing your steps can be slightly difficult because of the use of multi-level floors. These are minor complaints though - I really dig this level! Though, this might well be because I had played it before and instantly knew what the red switches were for before... I vaguely remember being extremely frustrated the first time I played it.

Old Post 04-02-14 05:40 #
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Veinen
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Map29: Mortuary

Ahh, and here we are, map29 of Epic 2. This is the "real" finale of the mapset since the traditional map30 in this wad is nothing to write home about. Nowadays it seems it can be expected that the map in the 29th slot of the wad is the true test of perseverance and skill (thanks Doomworld for reminding me the greatness that is Citadel at The Edge of Eternity, I should definitely replay that soon) and this map fits rather nicely among the other beastly map29s out there. Granted, Ogdoad was a considerably larger than this but the set-piece battles here are the most intense fights you'll see in the wad, the only comparable would be the chaotic insides of the Rev-ring in Ammut.

Visually the map is pretty much what is expected, mostly the usual egyptian tombs and libraries a'la Eternal with some Deus Vult II references thrown in the mix. I particularly enjoyed the warning sign at the doorstep, fits there like a glove. The DVII references don't end with the visuals here as the combat is very much DVII inspired like a few posters have already mentioned. The meat of the map consists of four brutal set-piece massacres situated in different parts of the map. These fights are total slaughter through and through, BFG in hand and if you're not firing it you're doing it wrong. The only tactical aspect of said battles is trying to control yourself enough to AV-bounce to the second invuln-sphere at the correct moment and occasionally refilling your cell ammo counter to get through the chaos alive. This style of gameplay is pretty much unforeseen in this wad up to this point so it may come off as a total shock to first timers but I found this map quite relaxing actually. I was very surprised to get through with very little problems on my first attempt, no deaths and (almost) maxkills. Now I did play this map just a few months ago because I felt like it so I knew what to expect but still, not much has to go wrong to get yourself killed. The only fight I considered a real challenge was the library slaughter due to the lack of invulneranbilities in the area. The other three can be managed pretty easily with good timing and aggressive playstyle (and knowledge of the locations of very helpful green items of course). Combat in between these set-piece arenas is your fairly standard Epic 2 -combat amped up to the next level with additional Arch-Viles slapped into seemingly behind every corner and in every teleport trap.

So, the final verdict: fuckin' A. While this is definitely one of the most memorable maps in the set, I don't remember enjoying this so much in my very first playthrough; partly because this was out my league back then and perhaps partly because the gameplay mechanics differ a lot compared to the rest of the wad. Now that I felt comfortable playing it though, it's a different story altogether. Slaughter too can be relaxing as hell if you're in control of the situation and that's how I felt in this map. On the other, if you let up for a moment you might find yourself in a hole so deep that you'll be the doing the dying instead of the killing so there's no room for lackadaisical gameplay either. In other words, I found the difficulty balance to be a very good fit with my present set of skills. In any case, this a fitting finale for a very good wad. Perhaps an another acquired taste, just like the previous map, but this certainly should leave a lasting impression and you can't deny that the set "ends" with a bang!

Map30: Amenthes

So yeah uhh, there's this map30 still to go. It's honestly pretty damn meh, the IoS fight is VERY standard and everything before that isn't much better. The telefragging monster sequence is just weird and the large hallway with nothing but a handful of Cacos is underwhelming to say the least. The Manc circle and the Cybers afterwards is vaguely interesting and the highlight of the map. So a bleh prologue for Epic 2 unless you're a fan of generic IoS encounters.

-------

Very brief overall thoughts on Epic 2:

I said before I started that Epic 2 is one my favorite megawads by one of my favorite mappers and this playthrough didn't really change my thoughts all that much. I did pick up some of the Eternal-isms and a few more things to criticize, partially thanks to the other members of the MegaWad Club, but there were no major surprise disappointments and I didn't grow bored of the egyptian visuals either. The set IS pretty corridor-centric and many of the maps follow the same design patterns but I can't say I would have disliked this style all that much in the end. The maps I remembered being the my favorites were still my favorites this time around. Common denominator for these maps seems to be either pseudo non-linearity and open areas or intense gameplay. Favorite maps in no particular order:

The Tower
Astral Base
Anomaly Zone
Oasis
Luxor
Ogdoad
Mortuary

In reality though the whole third episode after map23, except Per Nefer, is really awesome and it's hard to put those maps in any order. The second episode had a few very good maps as well and it had the texture variety aspect going on too but the first egyptian episode is, understandably, quite easy and not so memorable when casual playing.

Old Post 04-02-14 22:39 #
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Crusader No Regret
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Map29: Mortuary cheats used

A memorable map that starts by exiting a grave. Even the mini hedge maze at the start can be a challenge whether it be finding a switch to progress or barely enough ammo on UV by design. The inside of the castle (or mortuary) is heavily guarded. Even the incidental combat is more dangerous featuring lots of chaingunners and revenants as well as a cyber in a library to deter anyone from entering without the BFG.

Acquiring BFG is a puzzle by itself, one that took a few plays to discover. On skill 2 long ago, I managed to make it through the blue key battle with just rockets and SSG. Then I progressed to the red key arena (having not discovered the path to BFG) and once multiple archviles appeared, I gave up. There's so many hints that the map is designed around having and using the BFG so it pays to poke around until finding the path to it.

Areas such as the blue and red keys are heavily guarded and these battles are some of the showpieces of the map. They have a way of becoming overwhelming very quickly when not handled correctly. This type of BFG spam will appeal to some players and be a turnoff to others. Maybe I'm biased but I think it's designed well here.

While I'm rarely inclined towards slaughter gameplay, the times I am I really like this map as a playground. HMP is especially fun as using only one invulnerabiltiy where two are provided opens up choices as where to use them for max convenience. Well placed saves also push up the fun factor of the map as it's daunting without them.

With all the killing, little tricks like thwarting a double pain elemental surprise by sitting on a teleport destination to tackle them individually go mostly unnoticed yet raise the interest level of the map.

Map30: Amenthes abandoned

I played it up to rocket launcher than quit from boredom. The start is neat in how the player breaks board to proceed just like the first map. It's a desolate map both in terms of items and resistance. I got a laugh out of dozens of monsters telefragging each other in quick succession (yes this is intended behavior).

The timing to land rockets on the boss brain is the same as regular Doom 2. This is a recollection from my continuous playthrough. I'm OK with it being this easy.

Final thoughts:

I had fun with most of the maps in this set so it succeeds in that department. Difficulty levels are well implemented so the maps provide for a wide variety of skill levels (for example, mercy invulnerability in map 21 makes it trivially easy). The quality is consistently competent or better. As for which maps to play or pass if choosing to play only a few maps, here are my biased opinions.

Play:
14: Immersive. How it uses its resources is the strength of the map.
19: Another one strong on the atmosphere with decent gameplay to go with it.
23: A more action oriented Egyptian style map. Seems like I'm going with the crowd except I do like it when not losing all my progress on death
28: A larger scale castle romp best done in multiple sittings. Plenty of action to go with the exploration too.

Pass:
7: Not fun to play even though it has some decent presentation.
20: The textures don't add anything to the map. Could have been done with different texture choices and still have the same "Doom 2" abstract, conceptual feel.
21: It looks great and progression is interesting but there's no gameplay to speak of.
30: Yawn

Last edited by Crusader No Regret on 04-13-14 at 03:18

Old Post 04-03-14 05:19 #
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Rook
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Map 28

Well, we're nearly there (actually most of you are already there, but you know what I mean). I've never played the map this is apparently based on, but I like Ogdoad a lot. As with the previous map, the aesthetic is excellent and the sheer scale of the architecture and challenge of the encounters is great also. I'm also a big fan of the faked sprite arches, which appeared previously but are used a lot here.

What I don't like so much is the switch hunting. Mostly it was OK, but in the end I simply couldn't find the final skull switch to reveal the red key - I couldn't even find it looking in an editor, given how complicated the whole thing is. In the end I had to noclip (the only time I've cheated in the whole WAD) in order to obtain the key, which is a shame. All in all, a great map and one I'd definitely include in my dramatically cut-down dream version of Epic 2.

Old Post 04-06-14 16:19 #
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Rook
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Map 29

A map which definitely fulfils the level of difficulty, scale, and feel of a Map 29, I think. I really enjoyed this - it keeps up the strong quality that dominates Epic 2's final third. The massive monster frenzies which required careful use of invulnerability spheres were very well staged. Interesting to see various occult symbols used as custom textures around the place - the one with the eagle looks a bit like a Russian imperial design, does anyone know what it actually is?

Map 30

A letdown, but then most Map 30s are. I've made clear before that I really dislike the vast majority of Doom II, but one of its most pernicious legacies is the Icon of Sin map. Understandably a lot of WAD authors have felt obliged to include something like this, but the actual concept is so bad that most of the subsequent interpretations are also just very boring to play. It's hard to make a fight with a wall interesting (by contrast, I'm one of those weirdos that likes Dead Simple maps, but that's another story).

Overall, I enjoyed Epic 2. I think the first two thirds are extremely patchy and there are more bad or boring maps than good ones, but the third act really picks things up and is worth playing the rest in order to get to. My favourite three maps are probably 15, 28 and 29. I'd really have preferred if there were only, say, 10 or 15 maps because I think that megawads are extremely difficult to make to a consistently high standard throughout. In terms of full megawads, the best one I have played is probably Plutonia, but even then there are at least several duff maps.

So for me - Epic 2: a very patchy but ultimately satisfying megawad with a smattering of genuinely excellent maps worth returning to.

Old Post 04-07-14 23:11 #
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