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mouldy
Senior Member


Posts: 1360
Registered: 02-12



Antroid said:
That article is a bit misinformed in places... D2INO really isn't, for the most part, that graphically impressive (by today's doom mapping standarts, even vanilla, I should clarify), there's map31 that uses new textures and a new monster, and it's not a "doomworld page", but a thread on the forums that has those screenshots of every level.

I liked the RPS thing more. But what's with these articles anyway? Are there such articles for many projects (the DTWiDs would deserve one each IMO, and many, many more)? Or does our actually stand out in some bizarre way?



I guess all the doom 4 teasing has left a doom shaped information vacuum out there, still nice to get a bit of publicity for any doom project.

Old Post 07-29-14 15:22 #
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FuzzballFox
Junior Member


Posts: 228
Registered: 08-08


Gg on the Kotaku post guys- nice to see something other that LULZ BROOTAL DUM being showcased somewhere!

Old Post 07-29-14 16:57 #
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Marcaek
Senior Member


Posts: 1271
Registered: 12-10


After kotaku showcased an alpha of a mod where you deathmatch as super powered cars(it's not as awesome as it sounds, believe me), I don't know how anyone could take them seriously anymore.

In any case, I'm going to address some concerns here:


really don't understand why some people can't seem to ascertain that the whole point of this project was to have maps of various size and feel, depending on how the authors wanted to interpret the titles. call it inconsistent if you want, but the length comments in particular don't really make sense to me.


The problem with long maps is that unless they're super interesting and engaging all the way through, the length amplifies the effect the flaws in it have on player enjoyment. If a map is long for the sake of being long, instead of showcasing engaging gameplay in a way that feels like it justifies being included in a map at all, people are going to feel like the maps are being padded out with filler.


it seems like a lot of people just want more "the way id did" style stuff and are applying that to this without bothering to understand that this is different. sure, those mods are popular, but those no reason people have to do things that way - or, by the way, that every megawad has to follow the same kind of feel or progression. that's just silly.


I'd like to know *exactly* where you get this overly specific impression. I kind of feel like you're passing the buck for the relatively poor reception by constructing strawmen as if there's a legitimate reason the criticisms are just outright invalid(because it certainly looks like it, "they just don't understand" is never a good response to criticism).


honestly i feel like cuz this set is kinda inconsistent and done by newer mappers, it's an excuse for more experienced people to come in and dismiss and/or shit on it in an effort to distinguish themselves from it. i don't like it, but whatever.


Here's how it works. If someone makes a weak map it's a weak map. It may have some cool ideas in it but overall if it isn't fun it will feel like wasted potential. Newbie mappers *need* critical feedback to better understand what it is people like and dislike about doom mapping, and no amount of pretentious handwaving will ever change this.

Old Post 07-29-14 17:53 #
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ella guro
Junior Member


Posts: 180
Registered: 08-12


ah, i'm feeling really embarrassed about being credited as being involved in the project. i'm sorry guys. (kotaku post is here btw):

http://kotaku.com/doom-ii-mod-re-im...ames-1612681927


Antroid said:
That article is a bit misinformed in places... D2INO really isn't, for the most part, that graphically impressive (by today's doom mapping standarts, even vanilla, I should clarify), there's map31 that uses new textures and a new monster, and it's not a "doomworld page", but a thread on the forums that has those screenshots of every level.

I liked the RPS thing more. But what's with these articles anyway? Are there such articles for many projects (the DTWiDs would deserve one each IMO, and many, many more)? Or does our actually stand out in some bizarre way?



the RPS one was probably more accurate because RPS is generally a better website. i'm somewhat involved in the indie game scene and have several friends in common with the writer of that one, so it probably originally got written up for that reason. sites like Kotaku and PC Gamer also constantly post content as part of their model, and stuff with a good headline usually get prioritized. i'm all for more Doom mods getting press, anyway. also you'd be surprised how many people outside the Doom community have heard of the "the way id did" wads. i know i try to hype up cool Doom mod stuff i find on my twitter, anyway.

re: Marcaek, i guess i'd say there are things that a lot of people in the Doom community consider 'bad design' that i'd disagree with. sometimes i feel like people prioritize a sort of polish or professionalism over creativity or trying something different, which is not the only way to design a map. and i'm not disagreeing that D2INO couldn't be a lot stronger, or that it's not inconsistent. but i kind of appreciate Map 07's absurd length, even if it does drag down the pacing. and i like Map 09 in general, but i like big exploratory maps. i like things that subvert expectations or try something different, i guess, even if they are a bit rough around the edges.

it's a valid point that people should take criticism to improve, and i agree, but sometimes i feel like it falls into a "you're not approved by us" mentality. i didn't have a lot invested in this project, so it's not killing me that this project had a mixed reception. but i've been in a lot of online communities in the past where the more popular members bully the newer/more inexperienced ones, so i guess i'm more sensitive to it than most people.

anyway, not trying to start a fight here, and there's definitely room for improvement. i appreciate all the different ways people make maps, which is one of the reason i still follow the Doom community after all these years. i guess sometimes i get really annoyed that people can't seem to see the value in things i'm really into (the mod A.L.T. is i guess the prime example of that).

Last edited by ella guro on 07-29-14 at 19:21

Old Post 07-29-14 19:15 #
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_bruce_
Senior Member


Posts: 1281
Registered: 11-07


I guess the mega wad market has been branded by a few front runners and anybody is getting judged via an established criteria.

Old Post 07-29-14 19:56 #
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plums
Senior Member


Posts: 1660
Registered: 08-13



ella guro said:
i guess i'd say there are things that a lot of people in the Doom community consider 'bad design' that i'd disagree with. sometimes i feel like people prioritize a sort of polish or professionalism over creativity or trying something different, which is not the only way to design a map. and i'm not disagreeing that D2INO couldn't be a lot stronger, or that it's not inconsistent. but i kind of appreciate Map 07's absurd length, even if it does drag down the pacing. and i like Map 09 in general, but i like big exploratory maps. i like things that subvert expectations or try something different, i guess, even if they are a bit rough around the edges.



Excellent post ella, I agree with you wholeheartedly, especially this paragraph.

As far as your name being on things, I don't think anyone's going to care too much. If it means the project gets more attention because you've got indie game rep and they can use your name, all the better.

Old Post 07-29-14 21:32 #
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Ragnor
I do see the humour in a mod sneakily changing my title


Posts: 2080
Registered: 01-08


Pretty awesome that you guys have at least two articles out there. I got a kick out of reading the comments, just for the non-DW Doom love going on, even if half of them are stereotypical Brutal Doomers. I feel bad for Eris though, not getting recognition in either one.

Old Post 07-29-14 21:49 #
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Antroid
Senior Member


Posts: 1452
Registered: 09-07


I knew that fitting into 666 days was a very important thing - look how everyone's mentioning it! :D Eris' pictures also get way more attention than I expected.

Also, needless to say, I agree with ella on the reception of this wad. It's not like I don't value polish, but to me it's the absense of negligence like misaligned textures and places where you can get stuck.

I am all for uneven gameplay with spikes and droughts in action, suddenly longer maps, and most of all conceptually strong maps that aren't just "meh techbase" but try to convey a place. That's what's drawn me into the project in the first place. Such maps are more memorable than many entire [mega]wads to me. (Guess which one I would cite first as an example of polish being completely useless because the whole thing is scarily unmemorable...)

But besides acknowledging that some people want just the most carefully designed entertainment per minute and lots of eye candy as well, I am still not seeing the "bad" maps that some people claim this wad has. Okay, I might not be the biggest fan of all of them, subjectivity incoming: I found maps 02 and 03 a tad boring, the south corridor maze thingy in map19 should not exist, and maps 23 and 27 are a bit too loose and abstract for the project's goals, IMO. But I strain and strain and just can't see genuinely bad maps, let alone ones that make you think "holy shit was there any quality control" like the most recent idgames review claims. I think that's absolutely ridiculous.

I also don't see how wolfenstein is so much better than everything else besides by virtue of being allowed custom textures but that's beside the point :X

Old Post 07-30-14 05:48 #
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Memfis
Forum Legend


Posts: 5409
Registered: 04-07


I open D2INO.WAD in doom2.exe via DOSBox, start a new game and map01 immediately crashes with a Z_CheckHeap error.
Doesn't happen without DOSBox.
?

Old Post 07-30-14 12:58 #
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plums
Senior Member


Posts: 1660
Registered: 08-13


Memfis: try deleting D_RUNNIN from the wad and see if it works?

Old Post 07-30-14 13:20 #
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DeathevokatioN
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Posts: 2494
Registered: 03-10


Map31 is amazing, but how do I reach the yellow key?

Old Post 07-30-14 19:45 #
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Tarnsman
Forum Regular


Posts: 808
Registered: 05-11



Antroid said:
I also don't see how wolfenstein is so much better than everything else besides by virtue of being allowed custom textures but that's beside the point :X


It has a good layout, good flow, good architcture, doesn't feel like it goes on long past the point of running out of ideas, properly uses all those things to actually convey a scene and is overall well designed. Why is most of D2INO bad? Because it fails at pretty much all those things. Yes even "conveying a sense of place".

Old Post 07-30-14 23:15 #
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