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Edward850
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Mr. Chris said:
Is the Steam sales off PC gamers who are classic Doom fans (which is like 10:1 or close?) as opposed to console gamers?

You seem to have mucked up your sentence a bit and I'm having a hard time trying to understand it, but you do know that Classic Doom is currently on sale because it's the Steam Autumn Sale... right? It isn't a Doom specific thing at all.


Mr. Chris said:
If you're asking me, it's ridiculous to release a semi-identical product that still has flaws (TNT MAP31 keycard glitch) to a new audience without alienating their original PC fanbase?

Wait... you're saying that selling Doom on anything but the PC will alienate the PC... when Doom has been sold on consoles since at-least 1995.

Old Post 11-21-12 22:26 #
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Glaice
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@Edward: I wouldn't say ALL, I am talking about recently within the past couple of years.


DoomUK said:

I'm going to presume that most of us already have all of the original IWADs on our computers. No TNT map 31 glitches, censored swastikas or anything to upset even the most discerning Doom aficionado. How are we being alienated again?



By supporting the next-gen consoles, if not more than the PC crowd. Yes, it's another group of people but not the same who grew up on 386s and 486s but on Xbox360 and Playstation 3, which I suspect might draw in some of the Call of Duty and Battlefield crowds.

It sounds stupid but that's how I seem to think on that one.

Old Post 11-21-12 22:50 #
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Gez
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But we don't need support from them on the PC. These "next-gen" consoles need it because they don't have Doom, but the PC already has Doom. They don't have anything to do about us, except let us keep Doom how it is.

Old Post 11-21-12 23:20 #
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Glaice
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You're right on that one Gez, the console folk is who are gonna need the support. We got ourselves and each other for support.

Old Post 11-21-12 23:35 #
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Xtife
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This isn't about PC users already having Doom and not the console kiddies. This is about them changing the game after so many years and telling people who might be new to Doom that this is what Doom is. What they changed is irreverent, its the fact that they did it.

This is a slap in the face to all of ID's long time fans, and that's what my issue is. Those of us privileged to know Doom before all this that want to bring in more people and keep the game alive owe it to the franchise to show these new people what Doom really is.

Now this is old news as of last month, this recent development only shows how much ID has changed as a result of being bought out. And not in a good way. ID is a game developer first and foremost and wants to make money, I get that. But ID would have never have done this sort of thing in the past and thats what my concern is now.

Old Post 11-22-12 01:59 #
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Mike.Reiner
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Played it today on a coworker's PS3.

Thoughts: Controls are not customizable, but they are better than the 360 releases. They do indeed have the censorship on the health packs and berserk.

More jarringly however, is that while the game runs fine single player, it runs like absolute dog shit in co-op split screen. At least in No Rest For The Living, didn't try any others. Feels like it's running at 20-25 FPS at best.

Old Post 11-22-12 03:01 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Captain Toenail said:
(Human BBQ is ear-rape though :/ )

So what's new?

Old Post 11-22-12 03:12 #
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Caffeine Freak
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Xtife said:
This isn't about PC users already having Doom and not the console kiddies. This is about them changing the game after so many years and telling people who might be new to Doom that this is what Doom is. What they changed is irreverent, its the fact that they did it.

This is a slap in the face to all of ID's long time fans, and that's what my issue is. Those of us privileged to know Doom before all this that want to bring in more people and keep the game alive owe it to the franchise to show these new people what Doom really is.



References to Nazis and the red crosses were removed for legal reasons, as a) the Red Cross now has a trade mark over that symbol that they didn't have when Doom was originally released, and b) references to Nazis in entertainment is banned in Germany.

And to re-iterate what I said above, if taking out Nazi references and red crosses makes it not Doom anymore in your eyes, you're focused on the wrong things.

What you're saying here is completely ridiculous.


Xtife said:
Now this is old news as of last month, this recent development only shows how much ID has changed as a result of being bought out. And not in a good way. ID is a game developer first and foremost and wants to make money, I get that. But ID would have never have done this sort of thing in the past and thats what my concern is now.


And what about Doom Collector's Edition, or Depths of Doom Trilogy? Those were both simple re-releases of old games. Furthermore, how many of id's IPs have less than three titles? How many times have id released mission packs or add-ons for an existing title? How many times have they let other developers (like Raven or Splash Damage) take the reins and release a new title under one of their IPs? And how many of their classic games have they ported off to countless consoles and handheld devices? All of these things FAR pre-date id being acquired by Zenimax.

You're saying none of those things qualifies as milking an old franchise?

Old Post 11-22-12 04:03 #
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esselfortium
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The Red Cross had a trademark over the red cross when Doom was released, but they weren't enforcing it at the time. Since then, it's come up that they could completely lose the trademark if they weren't enforcing it, so in order to stay on the right side of the law, id Software presumably had the choice of either paying license royalties or removing the symbol from the game.

Old Post 11-22-12 04:13 #
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Gez
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The red cross thing is less about the Red Cross itself and more about Johnsons & Johnsons suing the Red Cross about using a red cross symbol.

Old Post 11-22-12 07:52 #
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Xaser
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Blzut3 said:
If people focused more on the actual, technically unnecessary, game play changes resulting from the censorship of nazi references. We would probably have seen actual progress here.

This man is wise. The trouble with the BFG Edition iwads (and plausibly this release? dunno just yet) is not the fact that the secret levels were censored, but more the way it was done. The changes involved modifying both maps while they could (and did, amusingly, albeit horribly) have just replaced the SS Nazi graphics. As such, there are now multiplayer compatibility issues on both maps... and MAP02 because of the Betray secret exit, but that's more of an oversight since it's an XBox holdover. But still, no TITLEPIC. D:

While it's unrealistic to expect the guys who modified the wad to be as Doom tech savvy as me or any other person here, it's a bit disappointing that the question "I wonder if this change will break something?" was either never asked or dismissed. Cursed be businesses, sometimes. :P

Old Post 11-22-12 08:30 #
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Csonicgo


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Gez said:
The red cross thing is less about the Red Cross itself and more about Johnsons & Johnsons suing the Red Cross about using a red cross symbol.

In America, this isn't a problem. In Canada, it is a problem, as the Red Cross of Canada owns the symbol there.

Old Post 11-22-12 08:33 #
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DoomUK
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Mr. Chris said:
By supporting the next-gen consoles, if not more than the PC crowd. Yes, it's another group of people but not the same who grew up on 386s and 486s but on Xbox360 and Playstation 3, which I suspect might draw in some of the Call of Duty and Battlefield crowds.

It sounds stupid but that's how I seem to think on that one.


You're right, it IS stupid :p

The PC crowd stands on it's own two feet and doesn't need Id's support, as has been said before.

Also, I hate Modern Military Shooters as much as the next guy (or at least, what they've become; it's not the simplistic nature of them that I dislike so much as the same fucking idea being done over and over and over, but this is a whole other topic). But I don't see how introducing people who play these kinds of games to Doom is a bad thing. Unless there's a point you're trying to make here that I'm overlooking.


Xtife said:
This isn't about PC users already having Doom and not the console kiddies. This is about them changing the game after so many years and telling people who might be new to Doom that this is what Doom is. What they changed is irreverent, its the fact that they did it.

This is a slap in the face to all of ID's long time fans, and that's what my issue is. Those of us privileged to know Doom before all this that want to bring in more people and keep the game alive owe it to the franchise to show these new people what Doom really is.


Console versions of Doom/2/Final Doom have ALWAYS been thought of as inferior to the original PC game(s), at least on a technical level and without getting into a discussion about music preferences and other stuff. It's an opinion that isn't unsupported by facts; the PC game IS technically superior and that's that. But the changes that have now been made are really insignificant by comparison, and for all intents and purposes PS3 and Xbox360 players are playing the original PC games that started it all.

But even the shittiest console port of Doom (whichever you think that is) is still Doom. Plenty of anecdotal evidence suggests that people who started off with an inferior port became "true believers" just like the rest of us ;). If you really think the trivial, petty changes in Doom's latest console releases are so egregious and detrimental to the experience, what makes you think people won't turn to the PC?

Last edited by DoomUK on 11-22-12 at 11:21

Old Post 11-22-12 09:31 #
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phenex2
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Could someone who purchased the 'DOOM Classic Complete' pack check the MD5 hashes of the IWADs (doom.wad, doom2.wad, plutonia.wad, tnt.wad ) and nerve.wad + Master Levels PWADs?
Not sure if you can access the files on a PS3 somehow or if we might have to wait for a PC/XBox re-release of this pack.
If the Final Doom IWADs have been modified like the BFG edition IWADs I would update my IWAD patcher accordingly.

Last edited by phenex2 on 11-23-12 at 19:41

Old Post 11-22-12 14:07 #
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gamul312
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Caffeine Freak said:
And what about Doom Collector's Edition, or Depths of Doom Trilogy? Those were both simple re-releases of old games. Furthermore, how many of id's IPs have less than three titles? How many times have id released mission packs or add-ons for an existing title? How many times have they let other developers (like Raven or Splash Damage) take the reins and release a new title under one of their IPs? And how many of their classic games have they ported off to countless consoles and handheld devices? All of these things FAR pre-date id being acquired by Zenimax.

You're saying none of those things qualifies as milking an old franchise? [/B]


I'm glad developers re-release old games! It shouldn't qualify as "milking," no more than reprints of old movies, books, music, etc. do.

Last edited by gamul312 on 11-23-12 at 03:34

Old Post 11-22-12 15:16 #
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scalliano
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All this fuss when everyone here is missing the real issue.

THERE'S NO NIGHT SKY ON THE MASTER LEVELS!!!

Joking aside, though, I find it ironic that the Playstation hasn't had an incarnation of Doom since 1996, then in the space of a month it becomes the only console to have the lot (D64 doesn't count, as much as I love it).

I don't see the censorship as an issue in itself, rather that the Wolf3D maps are now completely featureless and the aforementioned compatibility issues. I still think that we're making a mountain out of a molehill here, though.

Old Post 11-23-12 00:19 #
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fraggle
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esselfortium said:
The Red Cross had a trademark over the red cross when Doom was released, but they weren't enforcing it at the time. Since then, it's come up that they could completely lose the trademark if they weren't enforcing it, so in order to stay on the right side of the law, id Software presumably had the choice of either paying license royalties or removing the symbol from the game.


Csonicgo said:

In America, this isn't a problem. In Canada, it is a problem, as the Red Cross of Canada owns the symbol there.


As I understand things, neither of these comments are entirely accurate. The Red Cross is not a trademark - it's a protected symbol under the Geneva convention. That is: it's not just a symbol that the Red Cross have trademarked in the normal fashion: most countries actually have legal protection for it explicitly written into law.

For example, here it is written into Canadian law as part of the trademark act (but not apparently a trademark itself). Under US law, 18 USC 706 seems to be the equivalent code. You'll find similar laws in other countries (theoretically any that are signatories to the Geneva convention).

Old Post 11-23-12 12:54 #
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Quasar
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Of course some other pretty significant parts of the Geneva convention are no longer held to have force of law by the US government. IF you know what I mean. So maybe they should ask if we're still honoring that part of it ;)

Old Post 11-23-12 17:11 #
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Blzut3
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So any confirmation on what master levels are included and in what order they are played, music, etc?

Old Post 11-23-12 17:34 #
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Admiral Thrawn
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Altima said:
There are things I've read about it but can't confirm as I don't plan on buying it. If anyone wants to confirm these, PLEASE do so.

1.) They did not patch Map31 of TNT, meaning some people will become 100% stuck in this map due to the Yellow Key not even existing in the map and the inability to use the tnt31.wad fix.
2.) Nightmare difficulty is still not even like the originals, with no hope of fixing it.
3.) No chance of having Master Levels and Final Doom as DLC for those who already purchased Doom 3: BFG Edition for PS3.
4.) Final Doom and The Master Levels are also censored just as Doom and Doom II are in The BFG Edition.
5.) Uncustomizable controls and inferior sound effects.

My guess is that Plutonia Map27 had it's name changed from Anti-Christ to something else ridiculous, among other changes...

Edited to fix a typo or three.



I just finished TNT Map 31 and I can confirm the yellow keycard IS there.

Old Post 11-23-12 18:45 #
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phenex2
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Admiral Thrawn said:
I just finished TNT Map 31 and I can confirm the yellow keycard IS there.
I suppose they used the tnt.wad and plutonia.wad from the alternate id Anthology version as a base for the PSN release. The former has the YK bug fixed and the latter has missig dm starts added.

Did they change the red crosses in Final Doom as well Admiral Thrawn? If so I would again like to point out my previous request!

Last edited by phenex2 on 11-23-12 at 19:48

Old Post 11-23-12 19:40 #
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Quasar
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phenex2 said:
Did they change the red crosses in Final Doom as well Admiral Thrawn? If so I would again like to point out my previous request!

Given the nascence of PS3 hacking, you may end up having to wait quite a long time on that request.

Old Post 11-23-12 20:30 #
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gamul312
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Blzut3 said:
So any confirmation on what master levels are included and in what order they are played, music, etc?


I'm almost done... will update with the rest later:

01 ATTACK
02 CANYON
03 CATWALK
04 COMBINE
05 FISTULA
06 GARRISON
07 TITAN MANOR
08 PARADOX
09 SUBSPACE
10 SUBTERRA
11 TRAPPED ON TITAN
12 VIRGIL'S LEAD ("In the Dark")
13 MINO's JUDGEMENT ("DOOM")
14 BLOODSEA KEEP ("The Dave D. Taylor Blues")
15 MEPHISTO'S MAUSEOLEUM ("Running From Evil")
16 NESSUS ("The Demon's Dead")
17 GERYON ("The Healer Stalks")
18 VESPERAS ("Waiting For Romero To Play")
19 BLACK TOWER ("Shawn's Got The Shotgun")
20

Old Post 11-23-12 23:05 #
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Gez
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gamul312 said:


I'm almost done... will update with the rest later:

01 ATTACK
02 CANYON
03 CATWALK
04 COMBINE
05 FISTULA
06 GARRISON
07 TITAN MANOR
08 PARADOX
09 SUBSPACE
10 SUBTERRA
11 TRAPPED ON TITAN
12 VIRGIL'S LEAD ("In the Dark")
13 MINO's JUDGEMENT ("DOOM")
14 BLOODSEA KEEP ("The Dave D. Taylor Blues")
15 MEPHISTO'S MAUSEOLEUM ("Running From Evil")
16 NESSUS ("The Demon's Dead")
17 GERYON ("The Healer Stalks")
18 VESPERAS ("Waiting For Romero To Play")
19 BLACK TOWER ("Shawn's Got The Shotgun")
20



Haha, same music progression as Doom II, then:
MAP01 runnin
MAP02 stalks
MAP03 countd
MAP04 betwee
MAP05 doom
MAP06 the_da
MAP07 shawn
MAP08 ddtblu
MAP09 in_cit
MAP10 dead
MAP11 stlks2
MAP12 theda2
MAP13 doom2
MAP14 ddtbl2
MAP15 runni2
MAP16 dead2
MAP17 stlks3
MAP18 romero
MAP19 shawn2
MAP20 messag
MAP21 count2
MAP22 ddtbl3
MAP23 ampie
MAP24 theda3
MAP25 adrian
MAP26 messg2
MAP27 romer2
MAP28 tense
MAP29 shawn3
MAP30 openin
MAP31 evil
MAP32 ultima
Title dm2ttl
Inter dm2int
Text read_m

Old Post 11-23-12 23:36 #
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Admiral Thrawn
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phenex2 said:
I suppose they used the tnt.wad and plutonia.wad from the alternate id Anthology version as a base for the PSN release. The former has the YK bug fixed and the latter has missig dm starts added.

Did they change the red crosses in Final Doom as well Admiral Thrawn? If so I would again like to point out my previous request!



Yes the red crosses have been edited out of all the collection.

Old Post 11-24-12 00:11 #
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Quasar
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Gez said:

Haha, same music progression as Doom II, then:


>_<

Another quality job from id, I see. Almost as brilliant as including NR4TL without its metadata. Pfft.

Old Post 11-24-12 03:06 #
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Blzut3
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Quasar said:

>_<

Another quality job from id, I see. Almost as brilliant as including NR4TL without its metadata. Pfft.


Hey, give credit where credit's due. They're not in alphabetical order! That's progress! :P (Both the Xbox and PS1 releases were alphabetical although the PS1 had two of them out of order for some odd reason.)

Unfortunately it looks like the secret exit in TEETH is probably broken again.

Old Post 11-24-12 04:27 #
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Quasar
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Blzut3 said:

Hey, give credit where credit's due. They're not in alphabetical order! That's progress! :P (Both the Xbox and PS1 releases were alphabetical although the PS1 had two of them out of order for some odd reason.)

Unfortunately it looks like the secret exit in TEETH is probably broken again.


Yep I was pretty much assuming that would be the case without waiting for anybody to say so ;)

Old Post 11-24-12 06:56 #
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gamul312
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Blzut3 said:

Hey, give credit where credit's due. They're not in alphabetical order! That's progress! :P (Both the Xbox and PS1 releases were alphabetical although the PS1 had two of them out of order for some odd reason.)

Unfortunately it looks like the secret exit in TEETH is probably broken again.



I don't know if I went through the secret exit -- I just played Express Elevator for the first time and don't like looking up cheats -- but I went through the exit at the top room of the elevator and never got a key and now I'm in Bad Dream (level 21).

Old Post 11-24-12 15:09 #
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gamul312
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Wow, this level is insane. I guess I'll let them fight each other while I type. I'm glad they released this edition. I like playing Doom on a TV with a controller and the graphics look "right" to me (still pixellated but high resolution and smooth framerate). These levels are really fun. I never knew the Master Levels were so good. The order worked well, I think. Is it alphabetical in the XBOX1 version?

Old Post 11-24-12 15:16 #
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