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KennyJC
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Rather than doing the whole of Doom or Doom2 in one sprint, I wonder how long it would take if you strung all of the demo's together.

I see one for Doom2 of the Compet-N website for 113 minutes, but I think that is all in one visit.

Old Post 07-22-07 14:58 #
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Kristian Ronge
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Andrey Budko made a TAS UV max run of Doom 2 map 1-10 a couple of years ago.

You can find it here.

The problem with long TAS max runs is that it takes a very long time to correct minor details in later maps, because of the longer playing time (as well as the added difficulty of optimizing max runs vis-à-vis speed runs).

EDIT: Spelling

Last edited by Kristian Ronge on 07-23-07 at 11:12

Old Post 07-22-07 17:15 #
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KennyJC
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Precise fragging :D

Old Post 07-22-07 18:37 #
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KennyJC
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The problem with long TAS max runs is that it takes a very long time to correct minor details in later maps, because of the longer playing time (as well as the added difficulty of optimizing max runs vis-à-vis speed runs).


Forgot to ask... why is this so? I was considering doing a 'perfect' (TAS) UV Max demo for Doom2.

Where can I download a TAS program for doom2... from what I seen there was only 1 on the utilities section of this website, but it just wasn't working at all.

Old Post 07-27-07 13:00 #
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entryway
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The best 'TAS program' is PrBoom-Plus port and DRE for building

Old Post 07-27-07 13:22 #
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myk
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KennyJC said:
why is this so? I was considering doing a 'perfect' (TAS) UV Max demo for Doom2.
Right, you'll be making a perfect TAS of the whole game yet don't understand the basics of neither speed running nor TAS. It sounds the same as some guy saying he's going to make a megawad that's "better than Alien Vendetta and Scythe2" but doesn't even know how to use a level editor yet.

Old Post 07-27-07 13:30 #
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Grazza
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The most popular port for recording TAS runs nowadays is prboom-plus (as well as being very popular for non-TAS recordings, of course).

The basic features you'll need to record a TAS demo are:
* Variable game speed (to give you slow motion)
* Re-recording (the relevant command-line option is -recordfromto)
Concise instructions can be found in the documentation.

You might also wish to consider using strafe-50 automation. But be sure to specify exactly which features you have used in an accompanying text-file.

But really, don't even think of trying an ambitious TAS project until you have recorded a lot of unassisted demos. TAS is not a magic wand, and until you have a fair amount of recording experience generally, it is unlikely you will find it very easy to achieve good results using tool assistance.

The particular difficulty of recording a heavily optimized Max demo is that there are many things that need to be optimized rather than just the player's speed. In a straight Speed run, as long as you have run at maximum speed, used the best route and made use of any tricks to take shortcuts or boost your speed, you can be fairly sure that it is a good run. In a Max, you need to make full use of infighting, and to make all your shots hit, and also to manipulate the random number generator (by repeated re-recording until the right numbers come up) to get your shots to do something close to their maximum damage. Of course, you don't have to do all this, but the normal purpose of a TAS run is to get as close as possible to perfection, and there is little point recording a mediocre TAS run.

BTW, the demo 1427uv01 demo that Kristian linked to above desyncs in map10 due to a prboom recording bug that has since been fixed. Fraggle made a fixed version of this demo.

Old Post 07-27-07 13:32 #
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KennyJC
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myk said:
Right, you'll be making a perfect TAS of the whole game yet don't understand the basics of neither speed running nor TAS. It sounds the same as some guy saying he's going to make a megawad that's "better than Alien Vendetta and Scythe2" but doesn't even know how to use a level editor yet.


Well I did not mean it literally, hence the quotes ;)

Old Post 07-27-07 17:38 #
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emailking
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myk said:
Right, you'll be making a perfect TAS of the whole game yet don't understand the basics of neither speed running nor TAS. It sounds the same as some guy saying he's going to make a megawad that's "better than Alien Vendetta and Scythe2" but doesn't even know how to use a level editor yet.


That was uncalled for. No matter where he is now it's a perfectly reasonable goal to have.

Old Post 07-27-07 17:56 #
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KennyJC
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BTW, the demo 1427uv01 demo that Kristian linked to above desyncs in map10 due to a prboom recording bug that has since been fixed. Fraggle made a fixed version of this demo.


Are there any other TAS max demo's as good as this?

Old Post 07-27-07 18:19 #
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xit-vono
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Well Myk has a very good point, and that is making TAS max demos require much more planning, route knowledge and problem solving than speedruns. You have to find a way to get monsters to fight eachother sometimes, as well as getting them to position themselves in a way that they can be killed easily. You're welcome to try but it will be difficult.

Old Post 07-27-07 18:23 #
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myk
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KennyJC said:
Are there any other TAS max demo's as good as this?
Two must-sees are Sedlo's UV and NM demos. They're older and some tricks weren't known yet (thus slower), but they're from before Prboom+ introduced sr50 on turns (which is physically impossible by a human) and one of them is a NM run. That, and Sedlo is (or was, in terms of current participation) an top notch speed runner in his own right.

http://www.doomworld.com/tas/30uv1617.zip
http://www.doomworld.com/tas/30nm1849.zip

Since TAS is more dependent on routes than dexterity (since you can redo anything) checking previous demos (even nonTAS ones) for route credits becomes even more important than in pure runs (where that counts, but in longer demos the mere survival at that level and speed is already a feat).

Last edited by myk on 07-27-07 at 18:52

Old Post 07-27-07 18:46 #
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Grazza
Let's try Caesium


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KennyJC said:
Are there any other TAS max demo's as good as this?
There are plenty of TAS Max demos at the original TAS site, most of them single-map demos.

In almost all cases, forcing Ultimate Doom compatibility will play them back (a fair proportion fail otherwise, because Tasdoom.exe was based most closely on Ultimate Doom). For more information see my post (and file linked to) here.

In some cases though, the current records are faster than the old TAS times, either through better routes, more aggressive/sophisticated play, or just because the original TAS demo wasn't intended to be especially time-optimized (e.g. if the task being attempted was regarded as especially difficult at the time).

On that topic, Vile's compet-n demo lv11-205.lmp is one such demo. It also gives a hint at the sort of incredible fluke that you would need to get happening all over the place if you wanted to make a truly optimized Max demo: in one place he leaves an area with some infighting still going on (intending no doubt to return later on and finish off the winner). However, the infighting ends with two monsters killing each other simultaneously, thus saving Vile a fair bit of time (and kudos to him for realizing what had happened, and not wasting time looking for the live monster that wasn't there).


xit-vono said:
You have to find a way to get monsters ... to position themselves in a way that they can be killed easily.
This is a useful point too, and often more complex than these words suggest. There may well be monsters that if you use a 'natural' route would involve a detour to kill. However, by finetuning your route with great care, you may be able to persuade them to walk (by exploiting their player-tracking AI) to a part of the map where they are more easily accessible.

Ryback made an excellent post on general Max strategy here.

Old Post 07-27-07 21:05 #
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emailking
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Indeed, max is way too non-linear and chaotic (as in chaos theory) for it to ever be truly optimized in 99% of the levels. Just look at map01. I was floored when I saw Xit do a 0:39 when it had been 0:41 for so long. Who'd have ever thunk there was a route improvement.

Since all code is deterministic, there exists a minimum timed UV max run for the game whose input could theoretically be calculated. But we'll probably never even come close to getting the minimum time in an actual run.

Old Post 07-28-07 03:10 #
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xit-vono
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I recommend looking at the TAS site for some max runs. The ones that come to mind are e1m1, map01 and map07, but there are many others. I can't tell much about the quality of the others, but I think there are some very good ones, as well as some that are not spectacular. The 3 that I listed are by Adam Hegyi, so if you find something else by him (maybe map32?), then it's probably very good too.

Old Post 07-28-07 06:00 #
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KennyJC
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is it possible to merge UV max demo's into one big lmp file? I find it unsatisfying downloading and running a demo and 60 seconds later, it's all over :D

Old Post 07-28-07 15:14 #
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Grazza
Let's try Caesium


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No. The problem is the pseudo-random number generator. While it is possible to sew the demos together (using LMPC and copy/pasting them together and then recompiling), the resulting demo would desync very soon after the start of the second segment. This is because the random number would be wrong, and things would immediately start to happen differently.

But is it really such a hassle to watch them one after the other? I have supplied batch files for the TAS demos (which you can edit as you see fit to watch a series of demos of your choosing), and the autoloading feature in prboom-plus makes launching each demo as simple as just clicking on it.

Also, you can download them en masse by using a download manager. You can also grab zip files containing most of the old TAS demos from the DSDA library:
tas_id.zip
tas_pwad_original.zip
tas_hr.zip

Old Post 07-28-07 15:55 #
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myk
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If your purpose is simply entertainment (as opposed to watching demos in order to record; even though it can still lead to that), be sure to watch the COMPET-N max movies for DOOM II, if you haven't. They aren't "optimized" but, on the other hand, add the excitement of being an actual playing experience (in the standard sense). They last about the same as a feature film (so they certainly won't disappoint in the sense of being "too short"). There are coop movies, as well.

Old Post 07-28-07 16:16 #
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xit-vono
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This thread has inspired me to make a map01 TAS maxdemo. It's something I had been thinking about since I was going for the record. I think a built demo is the way to go, but I'd like to know if someone knows how to use DRE because I believe it would probably make building demos a lot simpler.

Old Post 07-29-07 06:51 #
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jongo
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I've built map01 UV max run in 0:31. I used Xit Vono's route. This is my first experience with DRE, so maybe under-par time is possible. Enjoy :)

Attachment: lv01-031.zip
This has been downloaded 51 time(s).

Old Post 09-08-07 13:39 #
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xit-vono
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Wow, that sounds awesome. I am looking forward to it.

Old Post 09-08-07 18:00 #
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evocalvin
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very impressive demo :)
Glad to see it.
I agree whit you that 30s is possible.

Old Post 09-08-07 18:35 #
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xit-vono
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Well it was certainly entertaining. I have an idea: is it possible to take the last secret while waiting for the lift? You might even be able to kill a few imps that way

Old Post 09-08-07 23:08 #
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RamboBones
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Looks like an excellent demo. And I'm also pleased to see DRE getting some use, although it's interface is definitely difficult to get a hang of. Building an optimized max demo of any level would take king sized patience in my opinion, just because the level times are so much longer and there's more going on than in a speed run.

Old Post 09-09-07 09:34 #
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jongo
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Thanks for a feedback :)
And the interface is really comfortable, the only annoying thing is that program crashes sometimes. Though i can live with it :)

Now will come a long part, so if you dont want to waste your time reading it - dont bother too. It's just my thoughts in case anybody gets interested in building a better demo.

About xit-vono's suggestion - yes, it is possible. You have 135 tics at your disposal before the lift starts raising. It is almost perfectly enough to get the secret and come back with nomonsters. There are even some "free" tics left and if the imps would behave good (quite possible, but requires a huge luck) it is manageable with monsters either. So, what can one do in 135 tics? Firing a pistol takes 14 tics:
1)the game waits 3 tics after you pressed a fire button, and on the next tic the gun fires --- we get 5 tics counting the FW one.
2)then come 9 tics of post-firing animation.
On the 10th tic you can press fire button again, then wait 3 tics, aim... an so forth.

So, you have enough time to fire 10-11 bullets if you start firing in a zombieman+imp hall just before entering the main room. It equals a maximum of 150hp damage. It means you can take away only 2 imps and a zombieman if all the bullets make maximum damage (i do the same
with a chainsaw).

The problem is choosing what monsters should you kill - e.g. you can fire a bullet in a zombieman on the way to the lift (before entering the main room), then fire another on the way to the "last" secret. But it's impossible to kill his nearest imp without slowing down or standing still. On the other hand, it's easy to kill the imp beside the "fence". But what about other 4-5 bullets? With this tactic one of them will be fired just near the secret. Shooting the imps that come out of there is pointless - they will stop moving and you'll get stuck unable to trigger the secret. So this shoot must be wasted on the imp on the lift.

Well, probably you can hurt as many imps as possible, then chainsaw them on the way back from the blue room? Seems too long for me. And yes, you can hurt some of them hard enough and shoot two imps with one shotgun shot later. Though it feels slow too. In txt i mentioned the fact that i dont lose any time triggering the last secret - shotgun reloads so damn long that i even need to stand a little in the exit room waiting for the animation to finish.
Killing all 5 imps with a rocket in a "shotgun room" would be nice. Though i'm almost sure it is impossible without going in the centre of the room to make imps "gather in one place". Let's assume it is possible and we dont lose any tics going around them. Then the perfect case would be as follows: after taking a shotgun you start going to the exit room, kill 2 imps with one shot as early as possible, then open the exit room, kill the remaining bastard and finish the level.
OMG luck is needed for this: One of two imps should be hurt at least once (with a maximum 15hp damage of pistol) and shotgun should make its maximum 105hp damage, which is really rare (if the numbers are correct at all). "Fence" imp must be dead. All the others sawed earlier with maximum damage of a chainsaw or you wont win that much time.

Anyway, i feel this route could cut 1s in the perfect case, but aforementioned "king sized patience" is a must here.

Old Post 09-09-07 15:33 #
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xit-vono
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Well I watched your demo again and have something to point out to you. You said that you had problems with the imps outside. I noticed that you woke them up while using the chainsaw on the third imp on the lift--this generally leads to them being dispersed and in my experience that meant very little chance to finish the demo successfully. I don't press the switch until the last imp is dead, and then I later wake them up coming out of the blue room so that they have moved into perfect position. It's not too hard to get 5 imp kills that way. Also, about the lift-secret trick that I mentioned earlier, I tried it in nomonsters and concluded that with nomonsters it should be just barely possible. With monsters the door is already open and if the imps cooperate you have another second to spare, so if you use chainsaw and try to kill 3 imps that means 60 health /20 damage/saw hit * 3 imps = 9 saw hits which is about one second, and you can save time because you are moving while using the chainsaw. Anyways it should take quite a bit of luck but if you have patience I think it's worth it(you may find you need a special tool to find out how much damage each saw hit does). Another hint: when dealing with the first 2 imps, it may work to have an imp shoot a wimp, then use the chainsaw to do a little damage so that the imp will not fight back, that way the wimp can kill him off. I'm not sure how well that works in practice but it's worth thinking about. At the end if the caged imp is dead or almost dead you may consider skipping the shotgun to save time. Thanks for making your demo. It was quite entertaining and impressive, but if you really want to push the limits you may consider trying some of my ideas.

Old Post 09-10-07 06:43 #
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jongo
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Nice detailed info :) You convinced me to try this out, need to get some inspiration first though. Randomizer is pretty annoying sometimes.

Old Post 09-12-07 16:35 #
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Mr.TF
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In the original Compet-n demo the exit door was opened by the last imp. If you were able to force it to open it, it would save a lot of time.

Old Post 01-29-08 12:13 #
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