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SAV88
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Qaatar said:
[D2reload] Map21 UV Max in 4:38.


A worthy demo for this atmospheric map. Its style of playing remindered me of Anders Johnsen's maxes (recorded in early 2000's, when he played with a much smoother control than he had in 1998). And its level of speed/precision isn't any lower than in many of his demos. You might say "I'm not even close to leading Doom Gods", but in your performance of DD21-438 I don't see any details that are weaker than, for instance, Anders' playing in AV06-454 (even though I'm used to watch demos critically, noticing every miss, every slowdown, every ineffective move). Well, maybe the BFG usage isn't optimized as thoroughly as it could be.

And for these Doom Gods it's also common to think: "My playing is far from godly, etc". Many great players tend to underestimate their place in world-class dooming, it's right for both you and Anders :-)

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Last edited by SAV88 on 11-22-10 at 14:05

Old Post 11-21-10 22:53 #
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Qaatar
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Haha, while I appreciate those kind words, we all know that there are a few major differences:

1. Doom2.exe is played in 320x200 (or something close to that). The visibility is greatly increased for me, as I use 1280x800 in Glboom+.

2. Glboom+ has a gamma factor of 4, which essentially is the equivalent of having light amplification goggles all the time.

3. This is a huge one: I used the hud. For a lot of maps, the monster counter doesn't really matter. For this map and for my specific route, it matters a great deal. Like I noted in my text file, I know EXACTLY when to restart, rather than playing through the whole level, then discovering that I missed a straggler. Therefore, this demo only took me about 3-4 hours...when in reality, I would probably have used at least double that amount of time to obtain a demo of similar quality.

...not to mention that the hud also increases visibility.

4. I've never recorded a demo under C-N conditions. For all you know, I could be using a shit ton of TAS all over the place, but to my knowledge, things like slow motion and segmenting (although I personally have no clue how to segment recordings) can not be proven in Prboom+. I'm definitely not saying that I'm using any kind of mild or strong TAS (unless you include the hud), but at the same time, it's a reason why I think my demos should not be taken seriously in any measure of competition or with any other comparisons.

I record demos because they're fun, and while this might sound extremely narcissistic, I rather enjoy watching myself play (although not as much as watching others), as I'm a UV-Max demo-freak. This is why I'm trying to record Max demos on maps that no one else has recorded on, so I can watch them later in my spare time.

Anders would be laughing his ass off if he saw your post, but I appreciate it nonetheless. :)

Edit: A few other points I can make as well...

- I don't think that my movement and overall style is all that enjoyable to watch relative to other players. I'm not very smooth, and one of the biggest reasons why a player like Sedlo is highly regarded isn't necessarily due to his skill (although he is certainly amazing), but because of his commitment to making high quality, aesthetically pleasing, silky smooth demos.

- I remember Hegyi saying once on the C-N boards that, if given enough time, even a monkey can attain a Compet-N worthy demo, due to the nature of Doom gameplay and mechanics. Obviously it was a hyperbole of sorts, but his point is well-taken. Anyone with average Dooming skill, assuming that this person can optimize, when given enough time, can produce something that looks like it was played by a Doomgod. In other words, time is the single biggest factor when it comes to demo recording. If you've ever seen Anders Johnsen play DM, you'd know of his prodigious skills and aim. Something tells me that he can produce something of my caliber with a quarter of the time that I would need. :)

Last edited by Qaatar on 11-21-10 at 23:42

Old Post 11-21-10 23:17 #
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SAV88
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Yes, it's logical. These source port tools make demo recording more convenient. But not by THAT much. When i recently started recording with PrBoom (instead of Chocolate Doom, which is pretty much the Windows equivalent of the DOS executable), I didn't notice too many changes. The visibility was good both in 320x200 and 640x480 modes. The general quality level of my late Doom2, Chocolate Doom and PrBoom demos is about the same (well, maybe the latest ones are slightly stronger because I keep slowly progressing in skill). As for PrBoom's timer and monster counter -- yes, they helped me to restart more operatively when I needed it.

But if you don't have good moving and aiming skills, reaction and stamina, these tools won't help you to record serious demos. An average player can't even casually finish many of the maps that we are recording demos on, until he improves his skill (as most gamers on this world find even the original "Doom II: Hell on Earth" very difficult to simply finish on skill 4). With tools, he will still remain an average player. And though I understand your explanation of the advantages that GLBoom gives to you, it's obvious that you also could record demos on a far-above-average level of quality with DOS Doom2.exe, it just would take you a bit longer work.

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Last edited by SAV88 on 11-22-10 at 14:05

Old Post 11-21-10 23:37 #
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Hitherto
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The visibility was good both in 320x200 and 640x480 modes.

Resolution is unimportant only for maps, constructed in limits of original engine.

Glboom+ has a gamma factor of 4, which essentially is the equivalent of having light amplification goggles all the time.

Good metaphor. glBoom produces significantly brighter sector lightning, and visibility of all sprites is greatly enchanced (with one exception: true-transparent specters).

Btw, two other renderer types have even 32 levels of gamma correction.

Old Post 11-22-10 00:42 #
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j4rio
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Qaatar said:
Wall of text


Sorry to disappoint you, but you actually really are a great player ;)

I, honestly, doubt that there is any attention whore producing TAS demos and distributing them as non-TAS. C-N points are no more so all you'd get is a bunch of "WHOAH" reactions and that's it. Besides usually tool assisted stuff takes way longer to do than just spewing up a legit run.

Old Post 11-22-10 01:09 #
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Phml
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These source port tools make demo recording more convenient. But not by THAT much.


There's been controversy about that and I think there's no clear "yes" or "no" answer here, it depends for each player. Some will be able to achieve similar results with Doom2.exe and PrBoom+, and that's great.

Personally... Well, see for yourself.

Attachment: vanillaversusportforphml.zip
This has been downloaded 25 time(s).

Old Post 11-22-10 01:12 #
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j4rio said:


Sorry to disappoint you, but you actually really are a great player ;)

I, honestly, doubt that there is any attention whore producing TAS demos and distributing them as non-TAS. C-N points are no more so all you'd get is a bunch of "WHOAH" reactions and that's it. Besides usually tool assisted stuff takes way longer to do than just spewing up a legit run.



Look, I don't want to come off like some holier-than-thou, sanctimonious, self-deprecating reject. I obviously know that I'm probably better than a lot of average Doomers. However, SAV88 is comparing me to Anders Johnsen, one of my favorite players of all time, and one of my Dooming heroes. That is like telling some decent college basketball player, "hey, I think you're as good as Kobe Bryant or LeBron James." Rather ridiculous in my opinion.

...and a shitty TAS demo does not take very long to produce. For example, my crappy p206x013 that used perm SR-50 and 50% slow motion took less than two hours. If I were to try and do that legitimately...holy shit...I don't think I even have the skills to pull it off. Not to mention that I don't even know how to use segmentation, which would decrease the time even further.

Old Post 11-22-10 01:20 #
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Qaatar
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Phml said:


There's been controversy about that and I think there's no clear "yes" or "no" answer here, it depends for each player. Some will be able to achieve similar results with Doom2.exe and PrBoom+, and that's great.

Personally... Well, see for yourself.



That's interesting. However, given the variability of Doom's engine mechanics and gameplay, 5 is too small of a sample size. One would have to conduct this experiment a few hundred times at least to get a rough estimate.

Also, I'm not sure how familiar you are with Chocolate Doom. I realize that I'm sounding like a contrarian giving a devil's advocate response, but unless I'm mistaken, almost all of your demos are recorded with Prboom+. The differences in "feel" of the two source ports might also be a significant factor with your experiment.

Overall, I obviously agree with our premise, that source ports change A LOT of things; but specifically, I'm not sure how effective your experiment was.

Old Post 11-22-10 01:45 #
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Phml
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It wasn't so much an experiment as an example of what I'm talking about, perhaps not a great one. I suppose the differences in these demos are more obvious to me, because I'm struggling to get anything done in Chocolate Doom, as opposed to just playing without even trying that hard in GlBoom+, and that's something that doesn't necessarily show in a demo.

I could do it a hundred times and I could try to come up with mouse sensivity closer if not identical to what I'm used to with GlBoom+.

However, I can't change the 320x200 pixelated software look making me struggling to see anything. I can't change the 35 FPS limit making the game less smooth. I can't change the way the sounds sound (like there's some static noise), which, while it doesn't have a very big impact on gameplay, still makes it harder for me to guess where fireballs or enemies are coming from.

I can agree that I would probably improve my times in Chocolate Doom if I decided to just use that port for months and got more used to it, but I highly doubt I would ever come up with identical times to my best GlBoom+ demos, regardless of how long I'd try ; and more importantly, I wouldn't have fun playing that way and would probably ruin my eyesight.

Old Post 11-22-10 02:06 #
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myk
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SAV88 said:
But if you don't have good moving and aiming skills, reaction and stamina, these tools won't help you to record serious demos.
Indeed, quality demos are the result of dedication, aside from engine capabilities, but as far as comparisons go it's all hard to measure, and the effect varies with the circumstances. A one in a million chance may be missed by not seeing something during one instant, with low resolution, for example. Such a setback can mean the difference between achieving a hard-to-obtain record or failing altogether in the long run. A subjective and vague "I didn't notice much difference" doesn't address these tiny but potentially telling differences.

I play public CTF on ZDaemon with low res and a vanilla compatible key setup and I can tell I'm kind of "shortsighted" in respect to many other players, as they become clearly "pixelated and blurry" with a reasonable distance. This doesn't mean one can't achieve much with such settings; I believe Chewy, one of the best CTF players in the community, used 320x200. Key arrangements make a bit more of a difference, and being able to have all the important weapons close to one's fingers can be the difference between life and death.

There's also the fact that it's not possible to know what the player is using unless its all written down on the demo text file or somewhere. There is already some variance in this respect in vanilla, and the habit of writing key and mouse setups was not unknown in the vanilla era (such as in Compet-n profiles and occasional text files) but it gets more extreme with engines that keep adding possibilities.

After all, PrBoom can do whatever Doom can do. I use it in a Doom compatible way in respect to key setup and resolution. That is, a vanilla demo is within the range of what is expected when using PrBoom. Vanilla behavior, down to player input, is an option in PrBoom. This isn't generally valid the other way around, as PrBoom does things vanilla can't.

For example, kimo said something like "I thought h214 1:02 was beyond keyboard time"... it's still not clear how possible it is without key setup arrangements not normally available in vanilla, at least. That's in comparing keyboard-only setups, because the mouse is a bonus regardless of other features or settings, of course.

What I like about the idea of Compet-n is that it allows a pretty objective and strict "base" for determining validity, going back to the beginning, much like in sports when the weight, balance and make-up of rackets, shoes, balls or other implements are established, which is all more or less beyond debate and interpretation. These change in sports too, with time, but people can bring up the differences, and question historical comparisons. So you can do the same around PrBoom-plus, but then the standard becomes centered around it. It's slightly different and while the slightly (I've called it mild-TAS versus actual TAS, from a vanilla perspective) can be emphasized, it should still be valid as long as there are people interested in vanilla-specific playing or want to have a perspective in comparison to when vanilla was used more regularly.

None of this should demerit the value of well-worked demos. It's just something to consider for more objective comparative purposes. "It's not a valid vanilla demo" doesn't mean it isn't great.

Aside from engine differences, we shouldn't also forget the cumulative understanding of technical details that allow us to improve times or make the right movement choices, both from playing over the years and the open examination of demo data, demo route precedents and the source code. This part of skill is a community achievement and cannot be expected from most demos from years back.

To really compete with Anders Johnsen's demos in a "truly fair" way, one needs to be propelled back in time and to forget the newer tools and the things we learned in 10 years or more.

PS: I've split this off because the posts regarding differences are many and long.

Old Post 11-22-10 02:12 #
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Qaatar
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myk said:

I play public CTF on ZDaemon with low res and a vanilla compatible key setup and I can tell I'm kind of "shortsighted" in respect to many other players, as they become clearly "pixelated and blurry" with a reasonable distance. This doesn't mean one can't achieve much with such settings; I believe Chewy, one of the best CTF players in the community, used 320x200. Key arrangements make a bit more of a difference, and being able to have all the important weapons close to one's fingers can be the difference between life and death.

To really compete with Anders Johnsen's demos in a "truly fair" way, one needs to be propelled back in time and to forget the newer tools and the things we learned in 10 years or more.



That's a great point. Expounding upon an analogy I made earlier, Anders would be like Magic Johnson or Larry Bird (Maradona or Platini, for you soccer/football guys). Sure, you can argue that Kobe/LeBron or Messi/Zidane are equal or greater players, but there's no objective and quantifiable comparison. Diet and workout habits have changed dramatically, include a vast array of sports science knowledge that we have today, which can prolong or enhance a player's career significantly. Knowledge of the game and tactics have changed as well, so overall, it IS impossible to compare.

That said, I think it is still objectively obvious that I am an inferior player to Anders. No sane person would dispute that.

Btw...didn't know Chewy played with 320x200...that's amazing. I consider him to be Ocelot's equal, if not Oce's superior.

Old Post 11-22-10 02:35 #
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SAV88
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Yes, a "truly fair" comparison of theoretical strengths of different doomers is not feasible. In some ways, Qaatar is downright inferior to Anders Johnsen, but in some other ways, Anders himself is inferior to players of even older generations, who didn't know some things that were invented by later players: more effective techniques of maneuvering, more aggressive and yet more reliable methods of handling monsters, not to mention the speedrunning tricks.

But these "things we learned in 10 years or more" are a part of practical skill of a doomer. While the word-class players (both at Compet-N and DSDA) cannot absolutely objectively compete in their natural potential, they still compete in achieving practical results (getting down the time of cleaning up a map, accomplishing an undone Nightmare/Tyson/Pacifist task, etc). For instance, when Jim "Xit Vono" Leonard beats Drew "stx-Vile" DeVore's pn04-057 with pn04-054, this does not mean that Xit is objectively better than Vile, but neither does it mean that Vile is superior to Xit in all ways.

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Last edited by SAV88 on 11-22-10 at 14:06

Old Post 11-22-10 09:03 #
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myk
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SAV88 said:
but in some other ways, Anders himself is inferior to players of even older generations, who didn't know some things that were invented by later players: more effective techniques of maneuvering, more aggressive and yet more reliable methods of handling monsters,
If he couldn't beat times recorded in "inferior conditions", yes, although it's not really a matter of who's inferior or superior, but rather the importance of understanding the context in which stuff is being recorded, and how credit goes there. If not, it's like saying Newton was an idiot at astronomy and physics because he didn't know many of the things we understand today about the cosmos.

Old Post 11-22-10 09:48 #
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