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Graf Zahl
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Cyb said:
the only things I don't like about it are some of the old doom limits it carries, such as in ability to add new monsters without replacing old ones, same deal with weapons, etc etc.



Yeah, that's a real shame. It would be so easy to raise those limits even without completely rewriting the game. Adding just a few (or better a lot ;-) ) dummy objects would help a lot...

Old Post 06-18-03 08:34 #
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Fredrik


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Graf Zahl said:
Adding just a few (or better a lot ;-) ) dummy objects would help a lot...
Probably would, but I think Randy is more interested in setting up a comprehensive extension system than implementing a couple of hacks like that. Though there's a fair bunch of hacks in ZDoom already, so you can't be sure.

Old Post 06-18-03 10:52 #
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NiGHTMARE
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Well, you already can have a load of non-replacing enemies and weapons in ZDoom, as long as you don't mind them having Heretic/Hexen behaviour.

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Old Post 06-18-03 10:56 #
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Naked Snake
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Eternity!

Pros :

- Great, friendly coding team (Quasar, SoM, Fraggle*, Julian*, and a few more AFAIK)
- ROR!!!!!
- Very fucking stable
- Very compatible
- Deh / bex support
- Fast
- Easy to use
- Console
- Well documented

Cons

- No GL version (not a big con, I could give a damn less)
- No netcode
- No jumping (another minor con, I really don't care about jumping at all)

* I don't think Fraggle is official on the team, and I'm not sure about Julian, but I DO know that they have helped with Eternity. Heh...fraggle + friendly :-P

EDGE

Pros

- DDF (simple, easy to learn, powerful)
- ROR
- Swimmable water
- RTS scripting system
- Boom support

Cons

- Slow and unoptomized
- No deh / bex support
- No netcode
- Moving feels like the player has only one leg

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Last edited by Naked Snake on 06-18-03 at 12:30

Old Post 06-18-03 12:18 #
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deathbringer
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uhhhhhhhh

Maybe its my 2000mhz, 256megs of ram and 64meg geforce 4, but EDGE has never seemed slow to me XD

Well it is slow when youre 'outside' a thin extrafloor, but when you step under it it goes back to normal speed, which is quite a wierd bug, but oh well, thin extrafloors are pretty useless anyway, unless you want to have skylights that look like they have 'glass' in them

Oh, and the garden path level of bughunt 2 crashes it in GL mode, thats thats probably cause its like a mile-long open area with a million enemies in..

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Old Post 06-22-03 11:00 #
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Mancubus II
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DevastatioN said:
Lag Sux:
I ping like 70ms and still find it horrible, most people warp around, ive heard of this problem from others as well.



Really? What port is this? If I play something like Skull Tag (.94c, unoptimized netcode based off of csDoom), I get an avg ping of 85 ms and i feel no lag at all. Of course, in every port's case it all depends on the server (where it's located, connection speed, computer speed).


DevastatioN said:
Aiming sux- No, im not refering to mosuelook, overall aim and how it works with the lag is really annoying to use.

ZDooM still does mess up Map1



You like auto-aim. You can turn that on you know. And quite frankly, I don't see how it messes it up. I mean, gn0 you can't use bugs from the original in your 1337 strategies! You'll be ok. Move beyond map01...


DevastatioN said:
I dont beleive that the ports keep the orig DooM feel actually, might be a personal preferance thing tho, DooM2.exe was played for a reason a decade ago and still is today :)



Yeah it was. You know why? Because it was all that was out there. Had Doom been like ZDoom, then that's what people would have played a decade ago. Just because it was the defacto engine back then doesn't mean that it can't/shouldn't/won't be improved upon now that the capability is there.

You keep referring to lag but you still haven't said what port you're using. If it's ZDooM, then in part I feel your pain.

I use ZDoomGL for most everything, unless a specific mod requires a specific port. I like to play around with JDooM's model stuff, but I have a feeling I'll no longer need to once there's at least basic md2 support in zdoomgl (or something better, who knows what he has cookin' up). The only thing I WOULDN'T use ZDoomGL for is multiplayer. IF it even has it in there it's probably like ZDoom, which unfortunately fails it. And since I don't play ZDaemon, looks like I'll have to wait for Skull Tag, which should be arriving soon. Skull Tag will basically be ZDoom+Good Multiplayer+423452366236 more features than ZDaemon. The only thing it'd be lacking in its initial release is GL. And while that isn't necessary in Doom, it's a nice feature nonetheless.

And since I'm not a mapper, all those other scripting features don't mean much to me other than people being able to make great levels/mods for ME to enjoy! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*ahem*

Old Post 06-22-03 17:17 #
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Mancubus II
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DevastatioN said:
dont know, but if they made it like ZDoom would it have been a big of a hit as it was? prolly not, if they had the capability to make it better, u woulda had Quake and Quake2 a few years earlier... thats all heh


BTW just because something has mouselook and jump doesn't make it like Quake. I really hate when people say that. I don't know if you're necessarily implying that here but it reminds me of such things. I think that features that got introduced in the quake series should be thought of as GOOD FEATURES, and as such belong in a GOOD GAME. So, in case you couldn't tell, I'm all for mlook, jump, and all that great goodness (and where's crouch damnit >:D)


I apologize for the double post.

Old Post 06-22-03 17:24 #
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NiGHTMARE
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If mouselook and jumping make a game into Quake, then every FPS (and a few non-FPS) made since Quake (and even a few games before it - such as Ultima Underworld 1 & 2 and System Shock - because they have jumping and mouselook) are, in fact, Quake. That's despite having completely different levels, music, sound effects, enemies, weapons, textures, storylines, code, etc, etc, etc.

The only thing in existence which simultaenously isn't and is Quake is Valve's Deathmatch Classic add-on for Half-life.

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Old Post 06-22-03 17:38 #
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myk
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Mancubus II said:
BTW just because something has mouselook and jump doesn't make it like Quake. [...] I think that features that got introduced in the quake series should be thought of as GOOD FEATURES, and as such belong in a GOOD GAME.


That's the point in saying they make it "Quake." They were made popular by Quake. Actually we could call it "Duke" too (but not Heretic, as a keyboard only freelook isn't really much of a factor), but whatever, Quake is more fitting because it introduces more 3D aspects and is also more closely related to DOOM as a supposed inheritor. But indeed mouselook makes profound alterations in play that are shared by all the games that use it, so in that sense they are certainly Quakish, or can be called Quake. Calling a certain trend after the name of what made it popular is nothing unusual, of course. As for games that are only marginally related, who cares, this is about DOOM, source mods, Quake, and a number of FPS that are relatively similar. Adding and argument with redundant semi-related information is pretty useless.

The reason newer FPSs (or source mods) are called Quake is to say that they are different (in respects they all share; freelook, enhanced 3D features, added realism and more options) as opposed to DOOMs simplicity (in the restrictions of its components, editability, play modes and movement.) Whether to you this or that is cool or it sucks doesn't matter, the thing is calling things by their name, and if you call, let's say, ZDoom "DOOM," expect someone to call it "Quake" when they see all the Quake-like features it has. All people have to do to have their things called according to their name is just call them what they are:

Me: Hey, what are you playing?
Dude: DOOM II!
Me: Yeah, tell me exactly...
Dude: Give me a minute and I'll join a server...
Me: Ah, so that's...
Dude: This is CSDoom, a source port by some Russian guy.
Me: Oh, so you're playing CSDoom running DOOM II, cool...
Dude: Right...

I'm talking about people who say "it's still DOOM" In such cases I'm usually like "yeah, it's uh... DOOM, but it's still different, so in many ways it's not DOOM." Actually, along the same lines, many source mods are different from each other and serve different editing and playing purposes, and it's totally sensible to tell them appart, be it positively or negatively or whatever.

DOOM and DOOM II are specific gaming packages that id Software produced. You can add stuff to them (PWADs, source mods and whatnot,) but undeniably the add-ons produce changes and they are not necessaritly part of the game, they are so only in an accessory way.

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Old Post 06-22-03 19:35 #
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myk said:
I'm talking about people who say "it's still DOOM" In such cases I'm usually like "yeah, it's uh... DOOM, but it's still different, so in many ways it's not DOOM." Actually, along the same lines, many source mods are different from each other and serve different editing and playing purposes, and it's totally sensible to tell them appart, be it positively or negatively or whatever.

DOOM and DOOM II are specific gaming packages that id Software produced. You can add stuff to them (PWADs, source mods and whatnot,) but undeniably the add-ons produce changes and they are not necessaritly part of the game, they are so only in an accessory way.


It is still relative. If doom to you is running around dark corridors and shooting demons with shotguns and rocket launchers then zdoom is just a user made patch for doom.exe that adds extra features.

But if doom to you wall running, low-res graphics, and all the other doom.exe "quirks" then yes, zdoom and jdoom are different games.

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Old Post 06-23-03 01:10 #
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DevastatioN
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DooM to me is high skilled, perfect movement and aim needing deathmatch... with all options and glitches needed to be precise to win, and play, the original style in which it was meant to be played over that high skilled LAN deathmatch, an equal game.
Mouselook + Jumping dont make Deathmatch harder in any kind of way, and doesn't add really anything to it.
I have a hard time high / low res will ever change the real outcome of a high skilled game.

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Old Post 06-23-03 18:12 #
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Graf Zahl
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DevastatioN said:
...in which it was meant to be played...



Somehow I doubt that very much... ;-)

Old Post 06-23-03 21:08 #
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DevastatioN said:
and play, the original style in which it was meant to be played over that high skilled LAN deathmatch, an equal game.
If you want to play only in the style Doom was originally meant to be played, then don't play Deathmatch or co-op. Multi-player was tacked on as an afterthought.

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Old Post 06-23-03 22:19 #
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DevastatioN said:
...the original style in which it was meant to be played over that high skilled LAN deathmatch...


Firstly, doom didn't even have multiplayer to begin with (added in later version) and secondly I know for a fact that John Romero himself uses legacy with mouse look and jumping.

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Old Post 06-23-03 23:09 #
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DevastatioN
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the original style in which it was meant to be played over that high skilled LAN deathmatch...

For those of u who couldn't read that right, ill rephrase it "the way LAN Deathmatch was meant to be played"

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Old Post 06-24-03 02:11 #
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DevastatioN
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*Read farther postsu p the list*

Iuse... ZDaemon, ZDooM, CSDoom, Legacy, dont like any of them really much.

"Move beyond Map1"
I play almost any map there btw

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Old Post 06-24-03 02:16 #
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NiGHTMARE
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DevastatioN said:
the way LAN Deathmatch was meant to be played
In that case, you'd better make sure it's lagged to hell, because LAN's where s***e back when Doom came out =P

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Old Post 06-24-03 10:38 #
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myk
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NiGHTMARE said:
If you want to play only in the style Doom was originally meant to be played, then don't play Deathmatch or co-op. Multi-player was tacked on as an afterthought.


If that is so, then how come the DOOM Bible even describes distinct player characters? DeathMatch, though, did develop later, apparently (in respect to Cooperative mode, I mean,) but...


Ct_red_pants said:
Firstly, doom didn't even have multiplayer to begin with (added in later version)


...multiplayer was present and functional when the game was released.

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Old Post 06-25-03 01:25 #
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DevastatioN
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Nightmare: U must have played Indigo all your life on LAN when the Green computer was horrible ;)

Even back from 1995-1997 LAN was good quality heh

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Old Post 06-25-03 15:59 #
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Graf Zahl
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DevastatioN said:

Even back from 1995-1997 LAN was good quality heh



Doom was released in 1993 and I can clearly remember when I first played it on multiplayer (around spring 1994). The LANs at that time were a complete mess and screwed up more often than not (at least for normal PC's). Even an internet connection today is more reliable.

Old Post 06-25-03 21:08 #
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