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doom man

i want a modification on doom so i can get doom to be full screen on my laptop

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Dear DOOM source hack user,

Note how you added the adjective crude before the term. If the term is so implicitly nasty, then why the need to specify negatively like that? But really, what do you call the source hacks? Ports? They do function as such to a degree with varying success, yet it's a fact that their existence and development doesn't exactly aim at being ports for the most part, but modifications or expansions instead. Some even run solely on DOS (or Linux, if you want to take the released source as the base.) Also, in respect to the Doom engine made from scratch, what are they?

We can say that (some of them) have been ported simply because people just move on to newer OSs and leave others behind, but aside from that inevitable circumstance the main justification as to why they exist, aside from maybe a couple, is the addition of requested or imagined features to the core engine.

Project supposed antipathy if you will, I care not, since I'm not prone to talk shit about engines and whatnot, as I don't have the time to waste, and I don't mind variety around me.

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myk said:

Dear DOOM source hack user,

Note how you added the adjective crude before the term. If the term is so implicitly nasty, then why the need to specify negatively like that? But really, what do you call the source hacks? Ports? They do function as such to a degree with varying success, yet it's a fact that their existence and development doesn't exactly aim at being ports for the most part, but modifications or expansions instead. Some even run solely on DOS (or Linux, if you want to take the released source as the base.) Also, in respect to the Doom engine made from scratch, what are they?

We can say that (some of them) have been ported simply because people just move on to newer OSs and leave others behind, but aside from that inevitable circumstance the main justification as to why they exist, aside from maybe a couple, is the addition of requested or imagined features to the core engine.

Project supposed antipathy if you will, I care not, since I'm not prone to talk shit about engines and whatnot, as I don't have the time to waste, and I don't mind variety around me.



The term 'hack' in itself is already an insult. If you don't like source ports in general that's ok but devaluing the hard work of these programmers by using such a negative term is something that I as a programmer myself simply cannot accept. Worse, you even confirm that this negative implication was your intent!

So be happy with the only true 'hack'-style Doom that exists: Doom2.exe! In comparison to most modern source ports that's a 'hack' in the truest sense because it was obvious that the programmers only made it work as barely as they needed to release their game.
(It's not that I don't do this myself in my professional work but then, I don't write programs that are customized by their users to such a degree as Doom.)

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That was a most amusing streak of bitter tears of retort there, my petulant friend.

It is you who worships at the temple of these hacks, and then feels impelled to prove something about the matter and thus throw crap at what you know I admire by using this malignant term you consider so unholy right back at me. Don't try; you can't reach me. Not even with weapons of mass destruction.

I don't use them or need them whatsoever, so I don't have the urge to call the hacks other than what they are. I used to use the term mods, but that's pretty specific to whole game modifications (both engine and resources.) Now, since these off-shoot engines are source specific, the term hack is most perfect. Unlike the misnomer port, which is inappropriate and unsuitable.

If my honest and frank opinion hurts you and your "programmers' morality," and causes torment in your apprehensive soul, that's okay. Especially when it's inevitable and effortless on my part.

Oh and, where are my words confirming your vain accusations, as you chance to say? The fact that I replied seems to have gotten you all excited there.

By the way, and to anyone concerned; quoting the preceding post is totally superfluous and unnecessary, if not ridiculous. More so quoting the whole post without discrimination.

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So it all comes down to this little statement:

'Myk don't like source ports so by definition they are shit and he is free to call them names they don't deserve.'

How sad...

Since you again confirmed all my suspicions I have nothing further to say.

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I don't use them or need them whatsoever, so I don't have the urge to call the hacks other than what they are. I used to use the term mods, but that's pretty specific to whole game modifications (both engine and resources.) Now, since these off-shoot engines are source specific, the term hack is most perfect. Unlike the misnomer port, which is inappropriate and unsuitable.

"source mod"
"engine mod"

Quite clearly both of those restrict the modification to the engine.

And source port is perfectly correct for all Windows ports since they were ported from the Linux version.

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Weak.

I'll refer you to the NewDoom's disaster thread. That aside, what's your point? I hardly care what some people call the source hacks. This discussion is about some sillywad questioning my speech, not the other way around.

The problem with source mod is clearly that the term mod is being misused, since due to usage it bears a meaning that puts it appart from its simple origin modification. Thus I stopped using it, and prefer the more exacting hack.

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Source mod makes perfect sense. By definition, what we all know as Ports are just modifications to the original source, literally. The only difference to modding in the classic sense is, Doom is the first game where such extensive changes have been possible. (ok Wolfenstein, but who cares)

Hack doesnt though, since a hack usually means a direct modification of the compiled source using a hex tool or something (at least to me). IPS patches for cartridge roms are hacks, action replay codes are hacks (I guess?), dhe patches are hacks, and can usually only accomplish limited changes by exploiting some pre-coded behaviour.

The only goal of source mods is to expand the game for the enjoyment of those who use them. I dont see why you should look down your nose at them; if you dont like them, it hardly has any bearing on those who do. You seem to sneer as if source mod users are missing the fundamental point, but we can do exactly the same, since you are missing out on all the fun.

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Who's sneering? If you ask me, it's the prejudice generated by misnomers that makes you feel I'm sneering. Or your belief in Graf Zahl's mighty argumentation?

The last two replies have strangely seemed like posts that had been made before mine, and were answered by mine or at least considered in mine. Hack is broader than you think, and mod is an off-shoot of modification used by gamers with a specific usage... just repeating here so that it looks correct in respect to the posting order. Who reads threads backwards?

For instance, look at 4a here. Perfect.

chilvence said:
The only goal of source mods is to expand the game for the enjoyment of those who use them.

Hardly from the hackers' perspective. We'll have to assume they do the coding because they enjoy it per se if they have any respect for themselves.

I dont see why you should look down your nose at them; if you dont like them, it hardly has any bearing on those who do.

Exactly my point all along, but then why are some asswipes dragging themselves all around the way I talk?

You seem to sneer as if source mod users are missing the fundamental point, but we can do exactly the same, since you are missing out on all the fun.

You just said one person's tastes had no bearing on another's, and now you make an effort to describe me, and then react to that description like you need to retaliate. Intriguing.

But you almost had it right. I don't care what you do at all. Have a ball with your favorite source hack. It's not my business. I do my own thing, which I get carried away doing, because I like it.

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myk said:then why are some asswipes dragging themselves all around the way I talk?


To be honest, I dont know. Its not a big deal at all. I would rather know why source mods dont do anything for you - I can play an old game every now and then, but I wouldn't be so addicted to it without a bit of change or development every now and then.

[edit] Oh and hacking is cool. Especially if it has a neat progress bar and a funky "Hack Successful" splash screen

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Graf Zahl said:

What program?
The one that gets all the jerks on board who refuse to play a game unless it has 1337 models and c00l light effects? Honestly, I can live without them.


Well, if you were perfectly content with the original levels and gameplay of the official game, whats the first thing you'd think of changing?

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chilvence said:

Well, if you were perfectly content with the original levels and gameplay of the official game, whats the first thing you'd think of changing?



Aside from the fact that this question is completely out of context regarding my quote my first changes would be the obvious ones: Fixing the obvious bugs and limitations (visplane overflows etc.), high resolution and a Windows/Linux version. In other words: PrBoom 2.2!

But as I am not perfectly content with the original levels (to be honest, if I were limited to them or the old PWADs featuring the same style I wouldn't be playing Doom anymore.) My main motivation is to see new (and different) stuff being done with this game.

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chilvence said:

Like models and textures, hehe



I don't need models. New textures are ok but not in the form of hi-res replacements. Everything I have seen so far totally kills Doom's atmosphere.

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heh, myk, it's pretty obvious you're attempting to rile people up by using the word 'hack', when in fact source mod is perfectly correct (modification to the source). Port of course is an incorrect term, but it's stuck more or less (though if you want to get specific all source exe's are ports from the linux version id released with the exception of a few linux versions, and the linux source was ported from dos anyway).

A hack implies something that was done quickly and most of the time in a not very elegant way so that it's hard to remove. For instance when the revenant fires a rocket in doom2.exe his z-coordinate actually moves up 16 units for a tic so he can fire his rockets from a higher point because the doom.exe projectile spawn code is not overly modular and open to expansion without large rewrites (in fact the vast majority of the engine is like that). In fact if you want to get into it, a lot of hacks present in source ports, sorry source hacks, are there because the code in doom/2.exe is a pretty big mess. 3D floors in legacy and slopes in zdoom are both pretty big hacks, but not because the authors who added them are incompetant, but because they had to figure out ways around the rendering engine code without rewriting it. I've said it before, but if you ever want to learn how to code your own 3d engine then look at the doom source code and do the exact opposite.

Something like adding hi-resolution or removing the framerate cap, or adding opengl support are not hacks (though opengl support requires support for some of the doom2.exe rendering 'tricks', which are there because of the oddness of the rendering engine) and actually require quite a lot of work, so you can see how some might consider it an insult.

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It's how I see it, so it's how I say it. It's not like I adore source hacks, so the negative implications of the term just fit in to give a fuller definition of what I'm saying. If I use the terms that are proper to my outlook, then I'll be much clearer when expressing my opinion. You can see the negative aspects which I won't deny and haven't denied, and have expressed with different and more descriptive words elsewhere and before on these very forums, but the positive ones, albeit weighted down (I'm a "purist," after all) are there too, I didn't make them up. And it's not like I talk about source hacks like a clueless person; as I said, I know them pretty well and am sometimes intrigued by their development and evolution. I never denied that source hacks require lots of work to produce, and never preached that they are worthless. Let those who enjoy most them "respect" them. I don't have to do it for them; I'd just be false to myself for their benefit. And I'm myself, not them.

And would I want to rile them up? To show your differences without restraint is to accept those of others. And if anyone wants to believe I'd spend my words on simply entertaining people in such a way, so be it, but that's at the very least trivializing my words.

As for mod, it heavily implies an add-on that's in itself pretty much different in respect to, and relatively independent from, the original thing, whereas the term port tends to imply sameness in respect to it. Note how source hacks are constantly influenced by demands from both sides; to add new things, and to stay true to the game; so they are modifications but of a generic form still keeping within certain boundaries (all this is relative in each case, but clear in any case.)

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Blergh, 'Port' specifically implies a faithful, simple, conversion of the source to another platform.

'Mod' is much more accurate, since all the 'hacks' do is modify the original game with the intent of updating the graphics or allowing more customisation of the gameplay. Zdoom, Jdoom, Legacy, Edge, Vavoom, Eternity, Boom, they all do just that. Not one of them could be classed as a 100% faithful port (neither are the changes they made simple hacks, but thats obviously pointless to argue)

I dont know about you, but if someone puts a plate of food in front of me for nothing, I dont tell them they used too much spices. I love all of the mods that I listed above, and I loved the original game the moment I saw it. That id saw fit to release the source code for absolutely nothing is a great sign of respect, one that I personally can not brush off as easily as you.

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Okay so if you don't care about source ports then WHY do you read and post in a FORUM DEVOTED TO SOURCE PORTS?

Clearly trolling ('riling up') is your motive behind this, or some sort of weird desire you have to prove that doom/2.exe is the perfect end-all be-all in terms on playing Doom, and it's pretty obvious that stating that in a source ports forum (devoted to executables that have deviated from doom/2.exe in one way or another and people who use (not hate) them) will not garner any sort of positive response that you might hope for.

This is akin to me making posts in a Christian forum. I certainly don't care about christians or christianity, and anything I say to them will most likely anger them (or cause strong disagreement at the very least), and likewise I won't agree with anything they say on the subject.

So what, myk, is the point of all this?

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chilvence, yeah, those definitions, relations, or facets of the terms apply to you viewpoint. I can see that clearly and it makes sense; the way you describe things fits with your conception of the matter. Is that suprising? Now draw your conclusions beyond that.

Cyb said:
Okay so if you don't care about source ports then WHY do you read and post in a FORUM DEVOTED TO SOURCE PORTS?

Care in what way? I never said I loved them, and I never said I hated them; but they are certainly tied to and related to a game I really dig, so it's not surprising if they become part of my conversations about it, I'd say. I don't post in the specific Forum unless the matter at hand interests me. The Source Ports Forum posts show up on the View New Posts link (which I always use through a convenient Favorite) just like any other post. Note how my initial post here was quite in line with the conversation and I recalled an experience when I was using source hacks.

I don't loudly promote anything; I discuss interesting subjects, like the nature and nomenclature of source hacks, as we have been doing here. If you want to see genuine examples of blatant promotion just look around and search for posts where people say "that sucks, use this instead." You'll find a bunch. Tell me if I wrote any.

This is akin to me making posts in a Christian forum. I certainly don't care about christians or christianity, and anything I say to them will most likely anger them (or cause strong disagreement at the very least), and likewise I won't agree with anything they say on the subject.

Heh. There's no need for such fundamentalism, especially in respect to a game. All along I've been saying, just read above; why should having widely differing viewpoints about a matter incur antipathy? Not for intelligent people, or for people who aren't desperately and aggressively promoting something like preachers.

We even have sayings like "opposites attract" and whatnot.

Being extreme is one thing. Not accepting what's extremely different in others is another. As I said or implied above at least once, when you note and value your particular differences, it's not so hard to accept and deal with others', and there isn't a need to shove your conceptions onto others, nor any fear to be anything but frank.

So what, myk, is the point of all this?

Perhaps this answers the question.

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