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VinceDSS

Doom Legacy Improvements

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couple things I'd like to see improved :

There is one thing I hate about Legacy is the BFG. When a monster gets hit by traces (not the ball) it gets attracted toward the player ? It gets annoying with huge hordes, esp. flying monsters. I find that really lame. If somebody knows how to disable that...

doom2.exe v1.9 demo and gameplay compatibility... maybe I am dreaming about this one, but it would rock :)

Fix the launcher when the IWads are not in Legacy's folder.

Support for huge maps likes Deus Vult map05.

Any more suggestions are welcome in this thread :)

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Lets see

Better-looking coronas/dynamic lighting, i remember in one old version they where beautiful, looked as good as JDooM's, well, almost, now they are shit, with obvious "rings" even in the high colour settings

Better optimised software..what happened? what the HELL happened?

Better optimised in general..the above bit about coronas was when i was running it in openGL mode, 32-bit colour, on a 2 MEG graphics card, with no lag! think about that for a second...

SKYBOXES!, It used to have them, then they took them out for some idiotic reason, when i complained on thier forums they denied skyboxes had ever been there

Transparent swimmable water should be less transparent...its nearly invisible!

Better handling of coloured sectors under software..surely they can do better than the current state of them (if its not pure blue, green or red it looks like crap)

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The things that made me stop using Legacy were all compatibility issues. None of the following are even available as options:

  • voodoo dolls
  • ghosts ("Arch-Vile bug")
  • lost-soul limit
  • "actors" "infinitely" tall
  • height reduction on death working the same as in the original game
So I guess they are the things I'd like to see most.

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I don't think the legacy team really cares about that ... and that sucks.

Being able to toggle on/off these old bugs/features would be really cool.

Making more threads like that can maybe help them know what people want or not :)

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VinceDSS said:

Making more threads like that can maybe help them know what people want or not :)



I think they know perfectly well - at least the voodoo doll issue. Everybody who complains about Legacy complains about this.

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They are going to put the voodoo dolls back,it's on there todo list.In a earlier post I mentioned I was looking for a copy of the legacy with the cool water effect(ive never seen it but heard it was cool),but it would be even better if they just put it back in.

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Other things that need fixing:

The bug that crashes it when minimising.
Key bindings are not saved to the config file.
Swimmable water lets you breathe forever.
General annoyances with Legacy-only maps (seg violations, corrupt savegames etc.)

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The Ultimate DooMer said:

Other things that need fixing:

The bug that crashes it when minimising.
Key bindings are not saved to the config file.
Swimmable water lets you breathe forever.
General annoyances with Legacy-only maps (seg violations, corrupt savegames etc.)


1, Doesn't seem to happen anymore for the majority of users. More than likely compatibility issues with different hardware.
2, This is to be fixed in the next version. You shouldnt have to manually enter them in the autoexec.cfg.
3, For the moment being, it has to be scripted in, but Legacy does need the option in the game settings for it.
4, Seg Faults are usually caused by scripting - we need more experienced scripters, not n00bs who think they are 'l33t'.
5, I havent ever had a corrupt savegame, so I can't comment.

Deathbringer said:

SKYBOXES!, It used to have them, then they took them out for some idiotic reason, when i complained on thier forums they denied skyboxes had ever been there


Which is true, Legacy has never had skyboxes.

My main issues with it are compatibility, stupid bugs and issues. I dislike Legacy's coronas - but you can pull off some decent effects with them.

My other beef is the newbie users (lack of good mappers/scripters) - there are very few decent legacy maps out there.

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Planky said:

4, Seg Faults are usually caused by scripting - we need more experienced scripters, not n00bs who think they are 'l33t'.


Hahaha! I promise you that scripting segfaults are not the fault of the users. As long as Legacy keeps using FraggleScript, it will continue to have these kinds of problems. In a list I sent to prboom in order to discourage them from completing their integration of FraggleScript I listed about 30 or so problems that I know of with the language or with its SMMU-derived implementation, and many of them cause fatal crashes.

Fraggle designed the FS language fairly well, especially considering that it was his first language and he had little or no formal language theory training. But, the implemention has severe problems. None of these have been fixed in Legacy, as far as I am aware.

This is why Eternity is now using Small for its scripting language. It is very similar to FraggleScript, but far more flexible, and has very few bugs.

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That is very interesting, a fact I was not aware of at anyrate. I wonder if Hurdler or any of the other Developers know about it and if they do, are planning on fixing them...

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Fixing FraggleScript? Forget it! In its current state the code is a total and utter mess, far beyond any possibility of getting fixed. It's hard enough to keep it working barely.

I once wrote a script for it and due to a shitty font being used by my editor I accidentally put a ':' at the end of a statement instead of a ';' and didn't see it. Instead of a syntax error I got a crash and the really bad thing about segfaults is that the signal handler efficiently kills all the useful information Windows outputs in case of an exception so I spent hours tracking down such a trivial typing error.

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Grazza said:

The things that made me stop using Legacy were all compatibility issues. None of the following are even available as options:

  • voodoo dolls
  • ghosts ("Arch-Vile bug")
  • lost-soul limit
  • "actors" "infinitely" tall
  • height reduction on death working the same as in the original game
So I guess they are the things I'd like to see most.



These items will not be implented at all. Period. So pretty much those who play Final Doom on Legacy are stuck. These features hasn't been recovered in the very first release and they will not be there in the future releases.

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That's utter crap... I'll probably stop using Legacy too.

note to the programmers:
You are not going to make a lot of fans when you only do what you want... try to listen to people and their expectations, try to implement the most demanded things, this will make your work much more appreciated.

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Deathman said:

These items will not be implented at all. Period. So pretty much those who play Final Doom on Legacy are stuck. These features hasn't been recovered in the very first release and they will not be there in the future releases.



In that case:


RIP, Legacy. I've been using it rarely to begin with but if this is true they can kiss my ass.

Where did you get this info anyway?

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Ichor said:

That's assuming they even visit Doomworld.


C'mon, this is totally unfair to assume the world+dog visits Doomworld to find bug reports and the like on these forums. Software development take a long time and as such people who get involved in that usually have little time for digging through forum posts.

I make a point of doing a search for "EDGE" and seeing what it drags up just-in-case, but I don't get chance to do that very often since its not possible at work (websensed) and at home I'm usually coding the project. By far and away the best way to be heard it to visit the project page and post there - I suspect the same is true for the likes of ZDoom and Legacy.

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Graf Zahl said:

Fixing FraggleScript? Forget it! In its current state the code is a total and utter mess, far beyond any possibility of getting fixed. It's hard enough to keep it working barely.


I've not seen to code - so feel free to shot me down in flames - but just because the code is a mess doesn't mean its not fixable and secondly, production code is rarely pretty. Given that source port developers have limited time on their hands, it is hardly surprising that it doesn't look how your university professor would like it. Hell, Doom had to be tidied up before it was released and I suspect every game you buy at a retailers has some pretty dodgy code (both in terms of execution and its source layout).

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That was Ichor's point.

But many of these issues have been reported to the Legacy team (many times over several years in the case of voodoo dolls), but nothing ever seems to happen. Why bother reporting stuff yet again if it's clear you're just wasting your breath? (i.e. you have good reason to believe that the issues you are raising are not ones the developers are interested in addressing).

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DarkknightXC said:

I've not seen to code - so feel free to shot me down in flames - but just because the code is a mess doesn't mean its not fixable and secondly, production code is rarely pretty. Given that source port developers have limited time on their hands, it is hardly surprising that it doesn't look how your university professor would like it. Hell, Doom had to be tidied up before it was released and I suspect every game you buy at a retailers has some pretty dodgy code (both in terms of execution and its source layout).




The code is a Mess. It depends on side effects, uses global variables in a manner that makes my head hurt and if you change something, beware, you might break something seemingly unrelated in it. I tried once to clean it up but it was a futile exercise. Ask Quasar if you want another opinion.

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Grazza said:

That was Ichor's point.

But many of these issues have been reported to the Legacy team (many times in the case of voodoo dolls), but nothing ever seems to happen. Why bother reporting stuff yet again if it's clear you're just wasting your breath? (i.e. you have good reason to believe that the issues you are raising are not ones the developers are interested in addressing).


That statement can be either way. Anyhow, I was just making the point that it want something done you got to speak to people.

I obviously can't comment about how Legacy deal with reports and the like, but if you have made the effort to report something, then fair enough and I'd certainly thank you for doing it in the case of EDGE. Its how open source development works.

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Graf Zahl said:

The code is a Mess. It depends on side effects, uses global variables in a manner that makes my head hurt and if you change something, beware, you might break something seemingly unrelated in it. I tried once to clean it up but it was a futile exercise. Ask Quasar if you want another opinion.


Heh, you sound just like me before I worked in games industry :).

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DarkknightXC said:

Heh, you sound just like me before I worked in games industry :).


I work there, too, but the code is still a mess! ;-)

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Deathman said:

These items will not be implented at all. Period. So pretty much those who play Final Doom on Legacy are stuck. These features hasn't been recovered in the very first release and they will not be there in the future releases.


I too would like to know where you got this info from...

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Planky said:

1, Doesn't seem to happen anymore for the majority of users. More than likely compatibility issues with different hardware.


Or different windows versions? (98SE for example, which is what I have)

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Planky said:

I too would like to know where you got this info from...


I never did say this was info, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that if these problems been mentioned the day legacy was released and still to this day has not been solved, what will give anyone the idea that they will fix these problems in the future?

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VinceDSS

1.9 Demo compatability: Not in the near future at any rate. There are many more troublesome priorities, most mentioned above.

Launcher: The launcher is fucked and anyone who reads the legacy FAQ on newdoom would know that. I know that bannings (lets not get into that, WMULL isnt the topic here) have prevented people from seeing that, so it would be better on the main site, rather than the forum. Use the command line/batch files. Easy as that. The laucher might not even be included with the next release *crosses fingers*.

Huge maps: I dont know anything about that so I wont bother.

deathbringer

Corona's/Dynamic lighting:
The coronas do look as good as jdooms in a matter of speaking, they are uninhibited by palette and colour depth (16bit RAW image +alpha, so Im told). The dynamic (and sometimes coronas) show rings depending on your videocard/drivers. I use a radeon 9000, and when I first got it, all colours seemed 16 bit and dynlight rings were obvious. Ive had many driver changes since then, and the problem has melted away (when changing colour depth, you much reinitialize the display, such as changing the resolution to show the new colour depth properly).

Software: Yes, it is pretty shitty, isnt it. And still bound to the 35hz cap as well. I'm sure the direction of the port is to ween itself off of software mode anyway, and the hardware mode to include a system as an option that looks and feels like software for the c++ renderer.

General Optimizations: Yeah, would be nice.

SKYBOXES!: Yes, portals were in the source at one point (added by SoM), but were removed for a vital reason, so say sourcecode comments. I'm a big advocate for these as well.

Transparent Water: Youre talking about software mode I see. Maybe that will be a fix, but I doubt it. In hardware, water can have a transparency value from 0-255, so that's not a problem

Coloured software lighting: Impossible, unless the palette binding was dropped completely from software. which is unlikely The only thing that I could suggest would be some sort of dithering, but that would look absolutely horrible. All in all, I dont know how this is any different from Zdoom's coloured lighting at all, in appearance.
Again, it's another thing that looks perfectly in Hardware mode, and by the looks of things should only be used in HW mode.

Grazza

Voodoo dolls: The bug was removed seeming accidentally (according to friends of mine that know the code) when the 32 player support was added and the whole method of loading playerstarts was changed.

other requests: I agree, they should be included as individual options.

Ultimate Doomer

Minimizing bug: Hav'nt tried, so I dont know.

Key bindings: This I solved with some painful trial and error. Autoexec.cfg is loaded after and overtop config.cfg. If you save your config in-game using the 'saveconfig' console command as autoexec.cfg, then Legacy will load that config overtop of config.cfg every time you run the port. Autoexec.cfg should be kept clear of control aspects, and only addidtional features as exhibited in autoexec.cfg itself. Upon exiting, legacy saves its current configuration to config.cfg.

Underwater breathing: That is like complaining that there is no native falling damage in doom. If you want to run out of air underwater, then script it. That's easy enough to do.

General map annoyances: It would be a godsend if this part was more stable. The problem is that certain systems and setups get the problems more than others. It would be so nice to see this fixed in the (semi-)near future.

Quasar

That may be so, but the less sloppy the script, the rarer the script-induced segfault (way easier thanks to the recent and long overdue inclusion of arrays :), thanks Tox).
I rarely segfault anymore from scripting, and most seem to be caused by odd, unnecessarily complicated loops.
I am intrigued by smallscript and SoM's portals, maybe Eternity would do well on my hard drive...



Deathman

Whee, another positive, uplifting, and unbiased thing from you. Kinda makes me wonder why you then went and made the Legacy-only DSV4, to much acclaim. Heh.



********
Anyways, I hope that answers many questions, and stems some positive outlook. I did it to the best of my ability, and im not a coder nor part of the 'team' (Hurdler and Smite-Meister, + contributers).

Also remember that Fab and Boris, who originally created legacy, are no longer with the team, and havnt been for some time. Many of the requests and complaints are from when they were running the show, and making up for other people's mistakes (when at the time seemed fine) is a hard thing to do, and the people venturing to do that have my utmost respect.

Oh, and it seems Hurdler and Smite don't come to Doomworld, else you would have recieved an 'official' reply to these problems ages ago.

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You also forgot the other two wads I did for legacy.
The source port has good ideas and features, but what I am ranting about is that the known features (voodoo dolls etc) haven't been re-implented, and probably never will. Sure I understand the 32 player deal, but whats more important, 32 players spamming bandwith, or being able to play though Final Doom?

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Deathman said:

but whats more important, 32 players spamming bandwith, or being able to play though Final Doom?



Well, after thinking about it I think for Legacy it's 32 players spamming bandwidth... :-? But why is it necessary to use the altered player spawning algorithm in single player mode at all? I really can't see any need for it.


On the same note: Why does Legacy call itself 'Boom compatible' when many showcase WADs for Boom don't work due to the missing Voodoo doll or an incomplete implementation of features? (Attempting to even start P:AR results in a crash!) On the other hand Legacy is the only source port that still uses Boom's original bad friction algorithm instead of using the massive improvements of MBF's which have been incorporated into everything else that's out there. Quite fitting that the only thing where it sticks closer to Boom than every other port is the one thing that should have been updated...


(And the sound volume issue is still getting on my nerves! :-( )

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err...why have 32 player support if only the maximum number of players I've seen played on Legacy online ever was 5 players...

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the missing voodoo doll is a huge problem... many maps have been designed with these. Including my own AV map which makes use of all 4 voodoo players (to give invul. to all 4 players at one point).

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