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Quasar
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Alright.

I will give in on this issue because there is not going to be a compromise otherwise. I won't let this turn into an Armageddon that destroys the spec, especially since I may be wrong. Some good points were raised about maps that exceed limitations, and if the standard namespaces are to be that limited, they may in fact become nearly pointless.

We can allow this. UDMF->binary conversion MAY still be possible for a subset of maps in the compatibility namespaces, obviously. This doesn't even affect the namespaces for Doom/Heretic/Strife at all, and if the UDMF Hexen map has not been edited since its conversion, then it could also still be reverted.

Since this is the case, I will defer to the majority opinion on this issue.

Last edited by Quasar on 05-22-08 at 01:04
Old Post 05-22-08 00:45 #
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Ajapted
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I also say that UDMF->binary conversion should have no bearing whatsoever on this spec.

It is not something people will want to do very often, e.g. they started the map for a UDMF capable port and later decide to "go Vanilla". It should be pretty obvious to everyone that such a conversion will be lossy, like converting a PNG image to JPEG format.
Old Post 05-22-08 05:57 #
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CodeImp
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We only defined the standard namespaces (Doom/Heretic/Hexen/Strife) of UDMF in this topic, not the extended, sourceport-specific namespaces, so I didn't see how this feature could be for anything else than the standard namespaces. Anyway, that is a solved issue now.

If you please can include in the specs that UDMF does not support Line_SetIdentification (special 121) and that a converter should make the proper adjustments as explained on the previous page, then I think we can agree on finalizing this.

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Old Post 05-22-08 08:50 #
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Quasar
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Alright the final spec is finally up ;) Same bat time, same bat URL.
Old Post 05-28-08 21:00 #
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CodeImp
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OK, final.

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Old Post 05-29-08 07:43 #
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Csonicgo
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http://sl4.startan3.com/emot/emot-toot.gif
Congrats guys! That wasn't so hard, now was it?
Old Post 05-30-08 13:12 #
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MDenham
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Would it be correct to assume that there are no plans at this time to support text-based encodings of data in more traditional binary formats (images and sounds)?
Old Post 06-01-08 11:47 #
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Creaphis
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That would be stunningly beyond the scope of this project as well as rather useless.

Good thought though.
Old Post 06-01-08 18:45 #
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Graf Zahl
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MDenham said:
Would it be correct to assume that there are no plans at this time to support text-based encodings of data in more traditional binary formats (images and sounds)?



If you want to use standardized images, use PNG.
If you want to use standardized sounds, use WAV.
Old Post 06-01-08 20:35 #
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fraggle
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MDenham said:
Would it be correct to assume that there are no plans at this time to support text-based encodings of data in more traditional binary formats (images and sounds)?
Jesus Christ. Why on earth would anyone do that?
Old Post 06-01-08 22:31 #
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entryway
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maybe he means metadata-based format :)

sound.wav.txt
say FUCK YEAH!
pause 35
say AAAAA-A-A!!!!!!!!!11111111
Old Post 06-01-08 23:15 #
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MDenham
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fraggle said:
Jesus Christ. Why on earth would anyone do that?
Because, at least for images, there is a standard text-based format for them (PPMs)?

Mostly it was a "for the sake of completeness, you could eventually look at an entire text dump of the whole WAD and actually be able to hand-edit it" idea. In other words, intentional stupidity.
Old Post 06-02-08 00:43 #
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Creaphis
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That's a relief.

Some people would have meant it.
Old Post 06-02-08 05:02 #
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AlexMax
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So what is the status on implementation in the respective source ports? In Doom Builder 2?
Old Post 06-28-08 14:28 #
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CodeImp
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Doom Builder 2 fully supports UDMF 1.0 already, though, the editor as a whole is not complete yet and there are no official builds. If you want to try you could download the source from SVN and compile it or ask me to make an "unofficial" build.

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Old Post 06-28-08 15:12 #
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Graf Zahl
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AlexMax said:
So what is the status on implementation in the respective source ports? In Doom Builder 2?



Implementation in ZDoom and GZDoom is complete. And Vavoom has copied all of it already, too.
Old Post 06-28-08 16:51 #
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DaniJ
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Just a thought but wouldn't it make sense if everyone just used the same UDMF parser? Surely the code can be put into a lib that any engine can wrap or load as needed and have one common codebase that we can all contribute to.
Old Post 06-28-08 17:07 #
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printz
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But ain't binary intentionally more concise than text data? Maybe some trolls will just upload verbose udmf files up there to /idgames...

APOLOGIES IN ADVANCE FOR THIS POST DAMNIT

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Old Post 06-28-08 18:57 #
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Gez
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DaniJ said:
Just a thought but wouldn't it make sense if everyone just used the same UDMF parser? Surely the code can be put into a lib that any engine can wrap or load as needed and have one common codebase that we can all contribute to.

The parser itself isn't such a problem that it would require collaborative effort from all developers to be achieved. So to each their own.

If the parser was really a problem, they could have went with an XML format and used one of the gazillions free XML parsers out there.

printz said:
But ain't binary intentionally more concise than text data? Maybe some trolls will just upload verbose udmf files up there to /idgames...

APOLOGIES IN ADVANCE FOR THIS POST DAMNIT

Heh. In theory it was possible to make an extensible binary format (it could have looked a bit like the ESP/ESM format from Morrowind, for example); but a text format was simpler to design and implement. Plus, text compresses very well anyway. Honestly, you'd have trouble designing a "verbose" map that would take more space than the average crap wad with 70+ megs of MP3 embedded inside.
Old Post 06-28-08 19:10 #
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DaniJ
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The parser itself isn't such a problem that it would require collaborative effort from all developers to be achieved. So to each their own.

If the parser was really a problem, they could have went with an XML format and used one of the gazillions free XML parsers out there.
I know this. Just because the spec may seem trivial to write a parser for does not mean we should not consider inventing this particular wheel but once. We are talking about a supposed standard, it makes sense that we should share a common code base because it reduces the chance for accidental diversion from the specification. Look at the sorry state of PDF for example (not that UDMF is anywhere near as complex).
Old Post 06-28-08 19:37 #
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Graf Zahl
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This is the entire UDMF-related parsing code in ZDoom, except for a few isolated lines here and there to check for the braces and semicolons:

code:

	FName ParseKey()
	{
		sc.MustGetString();
		FName key = sc.String;
		sc.MustGetToken('=');

		sc.Number = 0;
		sc.Float = 0;
		sc.MustGetAnyToken();

		if (sc.TokenType == '+' || sc.TokenType == '-')
		{
			bool neg = (sc.TokenType == '-');
			sc.MustGetAnyToken();
			if (sc.TokenType != TK_IntConst && sc.TokenType != TK_FloatConst)
			{
				sc.ScriptMessage("Numeric constant expected");
			}
			if (neg)
			{
				sc.Number = -sc.Number;
				sc.Float = -sc.Float;
			}
		}
		return key;
	}



Everything else is done in the general purpose parsing code that's also used for all the other text-based data. And obviously the biggest part of this is the special treatment of negative numbers due to the token based parsing mode I used to implement it.

Seriously, the format is so simple that it's really not necessary to provide a specific base implementation. The much more complex part is to get the data into the fields where it is of any use - and that differs much more between ports.
Old Post 06-28-08 20:35 #
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DaniJ
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I was thinking mainly along the lines of something without any external ties.

For example, a lib that could parse multiple UDMF maps into some internal representation (nested string/value tree obviously) and then provide methods for an external process to query the map structure, without ever needing to know that the data originally came from a text file.

I suppose that DoomBuilder2 already implements something similar.

But meh.
Old Post 06-28-08 20:41 #
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Graf Zahl
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DaniJ said:
I was thinking mainly along the lines of something without any external ties.

For example, a lib that could parse multiple UDMF maps into some internal representation (nested string/value tree obviously) and then provide methods for an external process to query the map structure, without ever needing to know that the data originally came from a text file.



Sounds like a lot of redundant work to me. Why should I parse it into an intermediate data format just to translate that format into the internal structures? Translating the text format directly is the same amount of work as that second step.
Old Post 06-28-08 22:31 #
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DaniJ
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That may be but it means there is no level of abstraction, thus if you want to support multiple map formats you need separate paths for reading maps. If you had an abstraction layer you could just swap map loading modules and the rest of the code wouldn't care whether it was being fed from a UDMF text file parser or a binary lump reader.

However, if the target app does not need to care about such design considerations then obviously, parsing and transforming directly into whatever internal representation you need is the fastest way to do it.

Personally, I would favour the flexibility of an abstraction layer.
Old Post 06-28-08 22:40 #
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AlexMax
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CodeImp said:
Doom Builder 2 fully supports UDMF 1.0 already, though, the editor as a whole is not complete yet and there are no official builds. If you want to try you could download the source from SVN and compile it or ask me to make an "unofficial" build.


I did so and could not find anyplace where I could save it as a .UDMF file. Am I missing something, or does it only read and not write quite yet (or if it does write is it in the code somewhere but not accessible from the UI yet)?

Looking good, by the way; Sector Brightness mode is pretty pimp.
Old Post 06-28-08 23:25 #
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esselfortium
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AlexMax said:


I did so and could not find anyplace where I could save it as a .UDMF file. Am I missing something, or does it only read and not write quite yet (or if it does write is it in the code somewhere but not accessible from the UI yet)?

Looking good, by the way.

UDMF maps are still stored in the standard WADs or PK3s or what-have-you, only the lumps are different.

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Old Post 06-28-08 23:27 #
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AlexMax
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esselfortium said:

UDMF maps are still stored in the standard WADs or PK3s or what-have-you, only the lumps are different.


I still didn't see anyplace where I could select 'write map as UDMF format', though. Unless UDMF is the only format it's capable of writing at this point. I didn't test it too thoroughly, I kept accidentally hitting W and trapping myself in 3D mode without any obvious way out.
Old Post 06-28-08 23:29 #
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Nuxius
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Since I have no means by which to compile it (so I haven't seen it), I'll take a guess here and suggest you try looking at the configuration files (a.k.a "ZDoom (Doom in Hexen format)", etc). There might be a "UDMF" option there.
Old Post 06-29-08 08:23 #
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Graf Zahl
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I think what he means is that there is no option to write a map in a regular binary format editing mode as UDMF.
Old Post 06-29-08 10:07 #
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CodeImp
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Yes it depends on the configuration you choose. Select "ZDoom (Doom in UDMF format)" when making a new map. (The Eternity one hasn't got anything in it yet) Your map will be saved in WAD format, like any other map, but the lumps will be UDMF specific. On every properties dialog (Lines/Sectors/Things) you will notice a "Custom" tab which allows you to edit special fields. (known ones for the sourceport are already shown in the list)

The 3D Mode in DB2 is a mode like any other. So to get out of it, just switch to another mode by pressing its key or its button in the toolbar.

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Old Post 06-29-08 10:08 #
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