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ixfd64
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Is there a Heretic equivalent of Chocolate Doom? I know that Chocolate Doom is one of the most accurate vanilla Doom emulators, and I'm wondering if there is a similar thing for Heretic.

Thanks in advance!
Old Post 06-12-08 03:44 #
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Creaphis
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Unfortunately, no. Anything that retains the feel of the original Heretic engine is essentially still just the Heretic engine. One example of such a project is Heretic+, a basic Heretic source code edit that removes limits, but it's still needs to run in DOS. You can pick it up here if that's at all useful to you:

http://sourceforge.net/project/show...ckage_id=227155
Old Post 06-12-08 03:59 #
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ixfd64
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Heretic+ is a part of PrBoom+, right?

I do know that PrBoom+ is also designed to have the "look and feel" of the original (vanilla) games. I've heard that PrBoom+ doesn't support the original aspect ratio of such games, but I guess I'll have to live with it for now.

Anyways, thanks for the information. :)
Old Post 06-12-08 05:41 #
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esselfortium
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No, Heretic+ is actually a hacked version of the original Heretic.exe, which greatly expands the rendering limits and (presumably, I'm not sure) the savegame size and demo-recording precision limits.

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Old Post 06-12-08 05:49 #
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myk
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A purist Heretic port should be possible, although copy-pasting Chocolate Doom code wouldn't be okay, since Heretic's sources are incompatible with the GPL.

ixfd64 said:
I've heard that PrBoom+ doesn't support the original aspect ratio of such games
Yes it does; it can use 320x200 or 640x400, and in other modes it adjusts the graphics so they look right.

esselfortium said:
and (presumably, I'm not sure) the savegame size
Yeah, from 180224 bytes to 2883584 bytes (x16).

It doesn't really change demo recording; vv's heretic hack does provide a longtics option (along with fixes allowing movies), however. The two hacks are compatible (as are Doom+ and cph's longtics hack).
Old Post 06-12-08 06:43 #
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Aabra
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Playing Skulltag or ZDoom with the right settings (no mouselook, no jump, low resolution, etc) gives you an experience which is pretty damn close to the original. The only thing that would really be missing IMO is the plasma bump.... which was never used in Heretic to my knowledge.

What else would a Chocolate Heretic have?
Old Post 06-12-08 08:00 #
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Graf Zahl
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Aabra said:
Playing Skulltag or ZDoom with the right settings (no mouselook, no jump, low resolution, etc) gives you an experience which is pretty damn close to the original.



Unless you know the technical differences between Vanilla and ZDoom. For some they are enough to sray away from ZDoom and for others they are a good reason not to use anything else. ;)
Old Post 06-12-08 08:05 #
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Kaiser
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Graf Zahl said:
for others they are a good reason not to use anything else. ;)


That would be true if it’s an actual Doom engine ;)
Old Post 06-12-08 15:51 #
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ixfd64
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myk said:
Yes it does; it can use 320x200 or 640x400, and in other modes it adjusts the graphics so they look right.


Ah, that's nice to hear. I guess I was reading about an old version of PrBoom+. :)
Old Post 06-12-08 19:00 #
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Aabra
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Graf Zahl said:



Unless you know the technical differences between Vanilla and ZDoom. For some they are enough to sray away from ZDoom and for others they are a good reason not to use anything else. ;)


This is the one thing I'd love to really know. I mean I know a lot of engine limitations but they all seem to be covered by ZDoom.

1) Visplane Overflow

This is obviously the biggest limitation. You can only have a certain number of linedefs visible at once. I can't remember exactly how many (maybe 128? It's been so long since I saw that error.) but it's the big one. Of course if you're using the original heretic.wad then this shouldn't make any difference since even if you were using the original heretic.exe the game wouldn't crash.

2) Wall Running

If you run along certain walls you can go faster... yay! More of a bug of course than a limitation but ZDoom does support this. Simply turn on the flag and you're off to the races... literally.

3) Plasma Bump

Admittedly not supported properly in ZDoom. There isn't a single map in Heretic however where this bug comes into play.

4) Silent BFG

Heretic has a BFG? Well, ZDoom supports this regardless. Not that it matters for Heretic.

5) Weird Sound

This is probably the only real thing where there is a difference. Most people (myself included) don't even notice it... but supposedly the sound in the original engine works differently. I'd have to read up on it again to remember properly but it's got something to do with sectors. You can hear x in location y with ZDoom but you can't with the original .exe Of course we are talking about the tiniest of differences here (a foot or two... well.. a Doom foot!) but I do admit that it's there.

6) Crappy Graphics

320x240 resolution.... which ZDoom again supports.

7) DOS only

This is just a difference in operating system really. The new versions work in Windows... I don't really see this as affecting the game experience at all.

8) Other

I would love it if somebody could fill in the blanks here. The only real difference that I currently see is the sound. There are obviously a million more differences but those differences would only occur in user-made pwads. Please tell me what other differences there are while playing the original heretic.wad I'm extremely curious about the other technical limitations and have to admit I'm a bit ignorant in this area.
Old Post 06-15-08 10:20 #
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Graf Zahl
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Aabra said:

This is the one thing I'd love to really know. I mean I know a lot of engine limitations but they all seem to be covered by ZDoom.

1) Visplane Overflow

This is obviously the biggest limitation. You can only have a certain number of linedefs visible at once. I can't remember exactly how many (maybe 128? It's been so long since I saw that error.) but it's the big one. Of course if you're using the original heretic.wad then this shouldn't make any difference since even if you were using the original heretic.exe the game wouldn't crash.


This is not what I mean. Stuff like this causes maps to fail completely so as long as a map stays within the limits they will never apply.


2) Wall Running

If you run along certain walls you can go faster... yay! More of a bug of course than a limitation but ZDoom does support this. Simply turn on the flag and you're off to the races... literally.


But let's not forget that this is a concern for robustness. It is a bug that has side effects that are more subtle. If wallrunning is on, movement clipping becomes compromised so we are back to the roots completely and all the fixes ZDoom has done become inactive.


4) Silent BFG

Heretic has a BFG? Well, ZDoom supports this regardless. Not that it matters for Heretic.


Note that the option is names 'Cripple sound system...' because that what it effectively does! Not recommended unless you are a hardcore deathmatcher that can't live without it. ;)


5) Weird Sound

This is probably the only real thing where there is a difference. Most people (myself included) don't even notice it... but supposedly the sound in the original engine works differently. I'd have to read up on it again to remember properly but it's got something to do with sectors. You can hear x in location y with ZDoom but you can't with the original .exe Of course we are talking about the tiniest of differences here (a foot or two... well.. a Doom foot!) but I do admit that it's there.


Considering that ZDoom's sound system is as far removed from the original as anyone can imagine that's not really surprising. It still uses the original attenuation values though.


6) Crappy Graphics

320x240 resolution.... which ZDoom again supports.


If someone prefers to get eyestrain... :D


8) Other

I would love it if somebody could fill in the blanks here. The only real difference that I currently see is the sound. There are obviously a million more differences but those differences would only occur in user-made pwads. Please tell me what other differences there are while playing the original heretic.wad I'm extremely curious about the other technical limitations and have to admit I'm a bit ignorant in this area.


For example:

- ZDoom fixes the original design bug with blockmap links (ZDoom links any actor into any touching block) which results in higher efficiency of hitscans and other subtle differences. Most notably it is much easier in ZDoom to kill a Spider Mastermind with one BFG shot. In Heretic these effects are likely to be less obvious because there's no hitscan enemies and no wide range hitscan weapons.
- Sliding against two-sided blocking walls was not checked in the original EXEs but ZDoom does.
- Sliding against diagonal walls is fixed in ZDoom. The original math is quite imprecise because it relies on the abysmally imprecise R_PointToAngle function.

You can imagine how people see such things. I'd say most people prefer the fixed behavior but there's still those that know how to exploit every single flaw, bug and loophole in the original and can't accept an engine that fixes these.
Old Post 06-15-08 12:27 #
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Aabra
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Graf Zahl said:

- ZDoom fixes the original design bug with blockmap links (ZDoom links any actor into any touching block) which results in higher efficiency of hitscans and other subtle differences. Most notably it is much easier in ZDoom to kill a Spider Mastermind with one BFG shot. In Heretic these effects are likely to be less obvious because there's no hitscan enemies and no wide range hitscan weapons.
- Sliding against two-sided blocking walls was not checked in the original EXEs but ZDoom does.
- Sliding against diagonal walls is fixed in ZDoom. The original math is quite imprecise because it relies on the abysmally imprecise R_PointToAngle function.


Learn something new every day. :) Thx - I'd honestly never heard of those things before. That hitscan point is especially interesting. Taking those into consideration though.... I think I'll stick with ZDoom for my classic doom/heretic/hexen experience. I also still maintain that people who insist on these things are crazy, but who am I to judge? To each their own. :)
Old Post 06-15-08 12:38 #
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myk
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ZDoom does actually behave more like Heretic than like the DOOM games by default (freelook, walking over things, decorations block attacks, for example), although naturally not in respect to stuff ZDoom changed by fixing bugs or as requirements to make changes for additional features.

Aabra said:
More of a bug of course than a limitation but ZDoom does support this.
The only real difference is that static limitations generally affect map designing and performance bugs playing; either may affect both, but one is usually more relevant while mapping the other while playing. A player wanting the classic feel (or to record Heretic v1.3 demos) will require the gameplay related bugs.

Simply turn on the flag and you're off to the races... literally.
ZDoom can have wall running, but it behaves differently. In ZDoom it applies to various directions, while in the DOS engines it's limited to when you move along a N/S wall towards the north. I think ZDaemon has a "classic" setting for this, but ZDoom doesn't seem to have more than 1 option (on/off).

There isn't a single map in Heretic however where this bug comes into play.
I doubt that. At Heretic-n you might find demos exploiting this.

I'd have to read up on it again to remember properly but it's got something to do with sectors.
There are various sound related differences, including the "silent BFG" (which might not be as immediately useful as in DOOM, but it still alters sound, such as when landing on the floor and firing at the same time), you don't hear other players' item pick-up sounds, sound hearing gets cut off more in Doom and works differently in any 8th level, and monster hearing is subject to different factors (in this WAD monsters wake up too early in Boom and ZDoom).

320x240
No, 320x200.

I don't really see this as affecting the game experience at all.
What it affects is the sound output; both SFX sound and OPL music playback (ZDoom only emulates it). A "chocolate" port wouldn't obviously support DOS sound behavior, though. A heretic port would likely use FMOD, in fact, and not SDL because it wouldn't be under the GPL.

I would love it if somebody could fill in the blanks here.
I don't have time to make a list now, but there are many differences, and none of these are irrelevant to an engine in general, since users would precisely seek a pure engine for various different (sometimes unexpected) reasons; testing levels, getting a classic feel, recording demos, doing research, &c.

Personally, I'm not too concerned about having a true Heretic port, as I'm not as much a fan of the game as I am of the DOOM games, and I can run it on a DOS compatible system anyway. Besides, as time passes DOSBox only gets better at running the PC games.
Old Post 06-15-08 12:42 #
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Squonk
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What is this plasma bump you talk about? And on which demo can we see it?
Old Post 06-18-08 15:34 #
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printz
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ZDoom is not the proper Chocolate Doom equivalent for Heretic. Period. The one which would have been as such is wHeretic, unfortunately that executable is too buggy to be safe running, so it falls out.

I also don't like seeing people not liking Heretic as much as Doom. Your opinions, I know, but I think they're influenced by Doom's superior amount of popularity. End of paranthesis.

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Old Post 06-18-08 16:16 #
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myk
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printz said:
I think they're influenced by Doom's superior amount of popularity.
That helps, considering the more people play something, the more intense shared play (multiplayer and demos, especially) gets. But I also don't like the inventory (that you can carry items around), that you can fly, that the monsters aren't as fun to fight, and the aesthetics aren't as powerful. It breaks the awesome gut-like simplicity of the DOOM games. I think, in any case, that Hexen makes better use of such additional features, combining them with others that go along with them, to produce a more solid character (both in progress an feel). It does lose the "DOOM gameplay", though, making it less replayable. That said, I've played Heretic (especially E1-3) more than once in the past and keep tuned to Heretic-n demos.

It's one of the better DOOM TCs, after all :p

Squonk said:
What is this plasma bump you talk about? And on which demo can we see it?
It's where you can bump onto a wall to get an item (an "key grab" or "item grab"). Some call it the "plasma bump" or "plasma grab" from using it a lot on Map01 during deathmatch to get the plasma gun without going onto the lift.
Old Post 06-18-08 17:05 #
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printz
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Heh. I was able to literally escape the Doom environment once. I was circularly run-sliding along the wall of the start of E3M8 (Dis), until I somehow passed through a corner of that polygonal room, into the void. I suspect it's that wallrunning bug's robustness inaccuracy, said by Graf Zahl.

I doubt it's in ZDoom's agenda to emulate all these problems though. And Heretic's source is not GPL yet, so... it'll take a bit more until releasing the convenient Windows port for this game.

EDIT: I think flying is humanity's second wish, after resurrection. I like when FPSes emulate it.

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Last edited by printz on 06-18-08 at 20:20
Old Post 06-18-08 19:52 #
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Graf Zahl
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That sounds more like a hole in the blockmap. E3M8 contains a mapping error so I wouldn't discount that.
Old Post 06-18-08 20:22 #
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Gez
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printz said:
EDIT: I think flying is humanity's second wish, after resurrection. I like when FPSes emulate it.

Probably even before, actually. There has been several times when I have wished I could fly, but none so far where I have wished I was resurrecting. :P
Old Post 06-18-08 20:32 #
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Squonk
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myk said:
It's where you can bump onto a wall to get an item (an "key grab" or "item grab"). Some call it the "plasma bump" or "plasma grab" from using it a lot on Map01 during deathmatch to get the plasma gun without going onto the lift. [/B]

Oh ok, I was thinking of some Heretic-specifical bug. Yeah, I surely would say it's stupid to remove it, very common and useful bug...
Old Post 06-19-08 20:00 #
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Graf Zahl
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Bug is the operative term! If you want to keep it you have to keep buggy code. ZDoom is more interested in robustness than in keeping around such exploits.
Old Post 06-19-08 20:34 #
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esselfortium
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Squonk said:

Oh ok, I was thinking of some Heretic-specifical bug. Yeah, I surely would say it's stupid to remove it, very common and useful bug...

Well, it's not that any ports intentionally try to remove it; it's a side effect of changing something in the collision code.

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Old Post 06-19-08 20:43 #
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exp(x)
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Graf Zahl said:
Bug is the operative term!

Please, bug is such an ugly term. I prefer feature.
Old Post 06-20-08 05:54 #
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DaniJ
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I'm quite sure that the item grab bug can be fixed whilst also adding additional code that when the player collides with some part of a two-sided linedef; searches for items to collect on the other side within MAXRADIUS, then test those within a position+mom range for the final decision. Then add a comp flag on that rather than the original bug.
Old Post 06-20-08 06:12 #
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Graf Zahl
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exp(x) said:

Please, bug is such an ugly term. I prefer feature.



You can prefer all you want - but since this behavior depends on incorrect calculations that have other side effects and make the engine slightliy instable it is still a bug!

That's the problem with these things. They are exploits of faulty behavior so if you want to keep it you have to keep the broken code and work around it instead of fixing it.

That said, I don't really know what precisely caused the plasma bump bug. Doom's physics code is such a big and ugly mess that it's almost impossible to keep track of all the quirks.
Old Post 06-20-08 08:00 #
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printz
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Despite my preference for the original executables, I'm with Graf Zahl here. I hate all these collision and speed bugs, really. I don't like when I want to see a Nightmare demo solution, only to see how the cheater used combos of straferun and wallrun to prematurely pick up keys or jump over wide chasms. They're tricks I don't think I'm ready to reproduce, plus they make the game easier than it was meant for Nightmare... And I wanna see how the demoplayer would deal with most of the dangers casual people with no leet running skills would expect, not start up E4M3 and leap right to the exit.

Too bad ZDoom is continuously updating itself in such a way it can't play its older demos.

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Old Post 06-20-08 10:24 #
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ler
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If you don't like speed demos, watch max demos :P.

I would really appreciate a Heretic Windows port with the level of compatibility Chocolate Doom has. It's irritating messing with Heretic+. wHeretic is just so ridiculously buggy.
Old Post 06-20-08 15:36 #
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myk
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printz said:
Despite my preference for the original executables, I'm with Graf Zahl here. I hate all these collision and speed bugs, really.
That's not consistent; if you really prefer the original executables, you don't have issues with their quirks. It's not necessary to hate the quirks, or pretend they are problematic in the original engine, to see why ZDoom developers would iron them out to add additional features and ease stability and behavior clarity, though.

And I wanna see how the demoplayer would deal with most of the dangers casual people with no leet running skills would expect, not start up E4M3 and leap right to the exit.
ZDoom doesn't remove strafe running. You can even enable jumping to make that trick easier. The E4M3 trick is relatively hard to do, anyway (as far as I recall, I haven't done it successfully the times I tried), but since speed running can apply any limitations the players choose to impose, a "no strafe running" competition is quite possible with any engine (it's easy to get working by modifying one's key and mouse configuration). Something like that has been done with "strolling" demos, for example. In any case, experienced speed runners have many skills over casual players that don't know how to strafe run, and not just the ability to exploit bugs. Not allowing bug abuse is an arbitrary limitation... in fact, some casual players probably discovered some exploits or bugs early on, but lacked other movement or combat skills.
Old Post 06-20-08 15:40 #
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printz
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myk said:
That's not consistent; if you really prefer the original executables, you don't have issues with their quirks.
I don't have issues with the quirks when it's me who plays, because I rarely apply them; in fact I just don't have all the knowledge necessary (yet) to reproduce them. But I don't like how the item-grab trick exists and seems to be so often exploited by others (I watch NM or DM demos). Normally if an item stays on a square pedestal, with its origin at least 32 units far from a side, or if that pedestal is 56 units tall, it mustn't be reached by a default player with default -turbo. So I agree on how the ZDoom team tries to fix these id-unplanned moves.

Back on topic: solid things in vanilla Heretic can't be climbed; they can only be fallen on. Contact with them will lack an "oof" and (if not wrong) a landing effect.

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Old Post 06-20-08 16:01 #
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myk
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printz said:
But I don't like how the item-grab trick exists and seems to be so often exploited by others (I watch NM or DM demos).
That must be pretty frustrating, considering these are well-established features in any decent demos using the original engine, Boom, or others that retain or apply the bugs. What constitutes a bug is often disputable; which quirks must be removed or disallowed? You can't expect runners not to use any beneficial features of the engine they are using (such as bunny hopping and rocket jumping in Quake). Avoiding these in DM is even more ridiculous, as any player doing so is badly handicapped, and even if both players agree to avoid tricks, they're bound to happen by chance. For example, it is not uncommon to get the plasma gun in Map01 simply by spawning in the hall and merely moving back quickly to avoid an attacker up the hall. I think such prejudice (against the quirks) is silly. We just need to acknowledge that ZDoom needs to be different than the original, for its own purposes.
Old Post 06-20-08 17:39 #
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