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printz
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myk said:
That must be pretty frustrating, considering these are well-established features in any decent demos using the original engine, Boom, or others that retain or apply the bugs.

Not 100%, as I did find a set of Doom 1 Nightmare demos on the /idgames, made (if I'm not wrong) by some Czech people. (Almost) all are done 'legitly'. :D

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06-20-08 18:13 #

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Squonk
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Having played nightmare a bit, I think that ep4nm would never have been made without key grabs. n4m1 is really harder in nightmare without grab (even with grab it's a complete bitch), and I can't think of doing n4m6 from scratch without the red key grab.

Except those two maps, I think you can find easily nightmare demos that follow the "normal" route, for all doom and doom2 maps... Especially in movies, where the player usually doesn't try impossible tricks

06-20-08 18:17 #

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Quasar
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EE's Heretic support will be fairly authentic once it is finished. I have tweaked a few things, some out of necessity of not being able to use the original code (D'Sparil's teleportation probability curve is smoother, for example, but actually noticing this would be rare). Overall, the differences are extremely minimal.

Once I get separate gamemode defaults for the config files running, EE will come configured out of the box to run Heretic with maximum fidelity. Right now, things are not so good starting up, because it's using Doom's defaults (this is especially bad on the automap ;)

If you're curious, the primary things remaining to be completed for EE Heretic support are weapons and inventory. Both of these are currently in progress, and are dependent upon the new EDF dynamic systems for defining them.

06-21-08 23:24 #

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printz
CRAZY DOOM ZEALOT

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Quasar said:
(D'Sparil's teleportation probability curve is smoother, for example, but actually noticing this would be rare). Overall, the differences are extremely minimal.

So there will exist a minimal chance for D'Sparil demos to fail, right?

06-21-08 23:34 #

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esselfortium
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@printz: Eternity is only concentrating on demo support for Doom 1.9. Having full demo support for Heretic and Hexen would be essentially impossible without using their original non-GPL code, which conflicts with Eternity's licensing.

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06-21-08 23:42 #

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printz
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What about Eternity supporing .HHE files? Sure, .EDFs cover .HHEs completely, but maybe I'd like to make a mod for vanilla Heretic, so I'd have to use HHE. And yes, HHE is really available for v1.3 SotSR. You'd have to get the proper .INI file from Ichor.zip, though!

As for this, would Ichor (the admin) accept if I release the modified .INI file found in ICHOR.ZIP, to /idgames, to be independent from his levelset?

06-24-08 14:06 #

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Graf Zahl
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printz said:
What about Eternity supporing .HHE files? Sure, .EDFs cover .HHEs completely, but maybe I'd like to make a mod for vanilla Heretic, so I'd have to use HHE. And yes, HHE is really available for v1.3 SotSR. You'd have to get the proper .INI file from Ichor.zip, though!

You are aware that using HHE that you will totally limit the usability of your level, right?

None of the really popular Heretic ports would be able to handle such a level so chances are high that you'd miss the intended audience completely.

06-24-08 14:47 #

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printz
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That's tough, but heh: for ports without HHE support I'd be putting equivalent lumps. :)

06-24-08 14:51 #

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Graf Zahl
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You are aware that the most popular port for Heretic is Doomsday, aren't you? Good luck with DED! ;)

06-24-08 18:55 #

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Creaphis
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Really? I've never even downloaded Doomsday. Maybe I should.

06-24-08 19:19 #

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Quasar
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Yeah Heretic demo support is a lost cause due to the way the compatibility system is set up for Doom. For example, we block out such features as scrollers and pushable objects and generalized sector types if demo_version > 1.9 -- unfortunately for Heretic, demo_version is 1.2 or 1.3 -- and no ports even support Doom 1.2 demos very well to begin with, since it's very difficult to figure out exactly what changes id made between their internal versions (this is not to say that we don't know of many of them though).

And that's all assuming I could actually use Raven's code, and hadn't made any of the sort of changes one makes because they simply feel like it, or because it makes sense. A lot of things were utterly broken in Heretic, and I have fixed all of them as I have identified them. Crashstates are an excellent example, as is the horrendously buggy 3D object clipping. Interestingly, the Gargoyle enemy displays all of those problems at once -- it can fail to crash, it can crash multiple times, and it can get stuck in your head by flying down into you thanks to INFLOAT logic.

06-24-08 19:49 #

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Graf Zahl
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There's other things as well.

For example, the blockmap based sight checking code has a bug that makes it think that a line of sight exists through closed walls on occasion. This also would require the original code to allow proper emulation.

The list goes on and on.

Heretic demo support is pretty much impossible with any port - especially those which share code between Heretic and Doom.

06-24-08 20:00 #

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printz
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Graf Zahl said:
You are aware that the most popular port for Heretic is Doomsday, aren't you? Good luck with DED! ;)

May not work with: Doomsday

Honestly, I didn't check DED's powers yet. If they're not compatible with DEH's, then that line may appear in the templated desc file. Many will use ZDoom, anyway, it's smooth; looks cool with the add renderstyle, it's modern...

Quasar: Do you think that the multiple crashing is a glitch? Sounds OK to me. If the dead body drops multiple times, it has to make the noise every time.

But you got the Z-clipping wrong. As it is already in Eternity, it acts like in Hexen (implicitly ZDoom). In Heretic, you can't walk up on things; you can only fall on them. Also, when you land on them, the oof grunt is not heard in Heretic.

06-24-08 21:14 #

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Vermil
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I find it amusing that Graf states a port is more popular for something than his port and then tries to belittle said port.

Any way�s, it would be very easy to create a Ded, Mapinfo/Decorate (as far as I am aware, no port at tall support's hhe files) etc version of Ichors� hhe file if you can work out which flag each bit value refers to.

06-24-08 21:35 #

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Graf Zahl
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printz said:

Quasar: Do you think that the multiple crashing is a glitch? Sounds OK to me. If the dead body drops multiple times, it has to make the noise every time.

Sure it is. The code simply assumes that a crashed monster will forever lie on the floor. The engine doesn't maintain a state 'has already crashed'. However, once it's crashed, the broken remains really shouldn't animate again, don't you think?

06-25-08 08:40 #

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Quasar
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Yes as Graf says, it's definitely a glitch. You could get a crashing Gargoyle to roll down stairs and crash on each step it touched, spewing a line of ImpChunks as it went. It was kind of entertaining to see, but definitely not correct. A similar phenomenon could lead to the NOGRAVITY flag not being cleared off a gibbing Gargoyle. Its corpse would then float in the air forever.

EE didn't "get it wrong" with respect to Heretic's 3D object clipping: as I said before, we never tried to support it in the same manner, because the code as it is in Heretic already doesn't work like it is supposed to work - it has a lot of glitches in it. EE uses the same clipping engine for all games it plays. Right now, this is a zdoom-derived engine with minor modifications - SoM is currently working on a new one which will be used for levels with linked portals, however.

06-27-08 02:49 #

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printz
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Quasar said:
EE didn't "get it wrong" with respect to Heretic's 3D object clipping

Ok, no problem, though there'll still be a difference between being able to step on things and not.

06-27-08 16:01 #

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Quasar
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True. I have yet to run into anywhere that this is important, however. :)

06-29-08 01:02 #

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printz
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Quasar said:
True. I have yet to run into anywhere that this is important, however. :)

Dunno, well, custom maps, actually. I wouldn't deny the existence of sunken columns or barrels in some of the 45 levels of Heretic, either.

EDIT: Is Eternity planned to allow mixing of Doom and Heretic worlds, the same way that ZDoom does now on all its supported games?

Last edited by printz on 06-29-08 at 19:00

06-29-08 10:42 #

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Quasar
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All objects are equal under the EDF system, so yes, it is possible to make use of Heretic objects under Doom gamemode, and vice versa. Copying the sprites and sounds necessary to make them work the same is copyright violation, but you could already do that whether or not we allowed the gamemodes' objects to be mixed directly simply by copying the Heretic object's code into your own EDF file.

EE does not take responsibility for nor try to enforce a standard upon the moral/legal actions of users. :)

07-01-08 05:25 #

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exp(x)
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Would there be any way to allow two (or more) iwads to be loaded? Perhaps conflicting entries could be loaded only from a designated primary iwad and the rest would simply be treated like a resource wad. It would be interesting to have a legal way of making a wad using resources from multiple games.

07-01-08 05:49 #

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MikeRS
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You should be able to use the -file parameter to load IWADs as though they were just PWADs. Some people seem to do this on Final Doom for some reason under regular Doom2.exe (perhaps because they didn't realize the engine was actually changed for Final Doom, and though to save more space by having doom2.wad, tnt.wad, and plutonia.wad all in the same directory).

07-01-08 06:05 #

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myk
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exp(x) said:
Would there be any way to allow two (or more) iwads to be loaded? Perhaps conflicting entries could be loaded only from a designated primary iwad and the rest would simply be treated like a resource wad. It would be interesting to have a legal way of making a wad using resources from multiple games.

Definitely, you just need modified TEXTURE1 and PNAMES lumps that combine the info (or the info to be used). I've been messing with this for a long time (especially mixing DOOM and DOOM II, but it could be done with other games). Another option is a batch file that using DeuTex extracts stuff from some IWAD and puts it into the PWAD which can't be redistributed once it's patched. The only problem with mixing different game series is that their palettes may not match.

MikeRS said:
Some people seem to do this on Final Doom for some reason under regular Doom2.exe (perhaps because they didn't realize the engine was actually changed for Final Doom, and though to save more space by having doom2.wad, tnt.wad, and plutonia.wad all in the same directory).

The main reason is simply that the value used for autorunning from the CFG wasn't known for v1.9f for some time, and COMPET-N runners wanted to record with autorun enabled, so they were allowed to use the standard v1.9.

07-01-08 08:09 #

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MikeRS
Doomworld is so about bullshit excuses

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myk said:
The main reason is simply that the value used for autorunning from the CFG wasn't know for v1.9f for some time, and COMPET-N runners wanted to record with autorun enabled, so they were allowed to use the standard v1.9.

You're probably the wrong person to argue with about such details, but are you absolutely positive? I thought the default.cfg syntax remained the same with all three 1.9 versions; I'm 80% positive I've setup one game, and simply copied default.cfg to the two others with no modifications and seemingly all the same settings.

07-01-08 08:19 #

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myk
The Disciple of L�t

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MikeRS said:
I thought the default.cfg syntax remained the same with all three 1.9 versions; I'm 80% positive I've setup one game, and simply copied default.cfg to the two others with no modifications and seemingly all the same settings.

It did remain the same, although the option to autorun is an anomaly that depends on the joyb_speed (joystick button for running) setting. In respect to v1.9 someone discovered changing that to 31 made the player always run, but that didn't work for some versions. For some reason 29 works for all the current ones (even Heretic and Hexen). I'm not certain what causes this (although it may have been explained in some earlier thread), but evidently the Doom engine pretends that a certain joystick button is continuously being pressed. This phenomenon might warrant a technical explanation in the wiki as an engine bug, I'd say. A couple of articles mention the quirk, but don't say exactly why it happens.

07-01-08 08:36 #

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fraggle
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myk said:
I'm not certain what causes this (although it may have been explained in some earlier thread)

Doom has an array four elements long which it uses to store the states of the joystick buttons. When it is building a movement command (ticcmd), it determines whether the player is running by checking if the keyboard run button is pressed down, or the joystick run button is pressed down. It uses joyb_speed as an index into the array to get the button state, so, suppose joyb_speed=0 (first joystick button), it looks up joybuttons[0] which holds the state of button 1 on the joystick.

The array is four elements long, but there is no check performed to ensure that joyb_speed is in the range 0-3 (the "valid" values). So if you put a value greater than 3, it goes past the end of the array and starts reading random other bits of memory. Any non-zero value is interpreted as a button held down; a joyb_speed of 31 just happens to land you at a memory location that always holds a non-zero value, so you always run.

This system is very dependent on memory layout; it depends on where the compiler laid out the variables when the game was compiled. That's why the magic "31" value works in some versions and not in others: variables got moved around and the trick no longer works. It's a coincidence that 29 seems to work in all versions.

Interestingly, the keyboard and mouse input work in the same way as the joystick input does. Theoretically, you should be able to overflow the keyboard settings out of the keyboard array and make them land in the joystick array instead. So you could make joystick buttons do keyboard actions (strafe left/right, move backward, etc). Same with the mouse. The difficulty is in finding the exact values to use. A job for entryway's talents, perhaps? :-)

07-01-08 12:41 #

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printz
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Quasar said:
EE does not take responsibility for nor try to enforce a standard upon the moral/legal actions of users. :)

If there'd be a DeuSF-like installation program that extracts data from an IWAD, adapts it to the correct palette, then inserts it into the gross PWAD, at minimal speeds, I'd be so happy. Normal XWE is very slow when it comes to extracting/loading thousands of sprites to/from the disk...

That way there'd be no infringements and people'll make Doetic maps too.

07-01-08 13:42 #

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Gez
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printz said:
adapts it to the correct palette

It'll rape the colors, though. The best solution is to have a renderer able to use 32-bit colors so that you aren't constrained by a palette. Then you can just change the graphics to the PNG format.

07-01-08 15:12 #

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printz
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I don't care about colours as long as they don't look buggy (such as white instead of black). Sure it will rape the colours, but then what to do to prevent it, while keeping it under the 8-bit rule?

07-01-08 15:22 #

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