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AlexMax
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Rivecoder said:
Stuff


I've actually put a great deal of thought into both of your questions.

Q1. How to deal with decentralized nature of server when it comes to banning?
A1. Easy. Allow Skulltag to parse a remote bans.txt, a la ZDaemon. However, instead of being forced on, you would be allowed to parse zero or more arbitrary URL's for your banlist.

Q2. How to deal with aliasing and namefaking?
A2. An obvious first step would be something like a /whois command similar to IRC. If you can /whois a hacker using someone's name on a duel server and tell that...wait a second...this guy is halfway across the country from where the real guy is or using a proxy, then it's pretty damn obvious.

The absolute best solution to prevent aliasing would be a GUID system. Bear with me, because this is a little lengthy...

The user, if he wanted to authenticate himself, would create a GPG key pair. The client would encode a message (such as "Skulltag 0.97d2-rc3") using a username and the private key on his computer. The auth server itself would contain a directory of users with usernames, public GPG keys and a password (so you could log on to the auth server itself and change your public key later). The server would query the auth server with the username and either the encoded message itself (so the auth server could spit out the decoded message back at the server) or simply request the public key for the particular username and let the server decode the message. If the message is an expected one, the user is authenticated and doing a /whois on the user would show that he is indeed who he says he is.

Servers would have an option of which keyserver to use (since the keyserver itself would be open-source and many keyservers could potentially exist...though probably only one or two would exist in practice), and a server could either force users to authenticate themselves, allow anonymous unauthenticated use, or simply opt not to use authentication at all.

This is a little complicated, but I think it offers good security while being open. An individual server-based username and password system would not work, since you would have to register your username on EVERY server you played on (and what if someone steals your username on a new server?) Worse, someone could run a hacked (if closed source)/modified (if open source) "bait server" for the purposes of harvesting username/password combinations. And on other stuff I would get annoyed by, I do think that the auth server should be open source, since there's really nothing to lose by allowing people to pick which auth server they register against. Of course, most people would use the default auth server, but if people disagreed with the way the auth server was being run, the community should have the freedom to set up an alternative one. (just like being able to pick your banlist)


AlexMax refers to a smooth, responsible, self-policing community, but I'm not sure we have that yet.


Doom multiplayer source ports have never been a bastion of maturity, which is an unfortunate stumbling block. The question is, how would you go about maturing the Skulltag community into something capable of better policing itself? I have my own thoughts about this, but I don't think I'm in a position capable of formulating them at this moment, so I'll get back to you on that.

Last edited by AlexMax on 07-02-08 at 09:49

Old Post 07-02-08 09:34 #
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MG_Man
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I think we're back to the original question: What (besides hack fixes and such) is to be gained from open-sourcing the code?
Hack fixes and the like are obviously very important reasons to release the source and seems to be the main reason why everyone wants the source to be released.

Now, look at ZDaemon. It also has the same formula as "Security through obscurity" that Skulltag does now, and nobody's campaigning about releasing their source. It's already been said that the engine is too old that nobody really cares about it, but not many people have given any renderer/engine or how the netcode works as reasons to release the source for Skulltag. It's all been about security and hack protection, which in this case, ZDaemon is just as "faulted" as much as Skulltag apparently is now. So how come there hasn't been any parading for ZDaemon's source?

It's also been said that "Release Skulltag's Source!" as to, say, port it to Mac some day.
ZDoom has been open source for a while, and it still hasn't been ported to a Mac, and as it stands, even the developers admit that it won't be for a long while, if ever.

My two cents.

Old Post 07-05-08 16:31 #
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jute gyte
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Another reason for open-sourcing: Allowing for multiple modifications of the port to support the diverse interests of the playing community. There are currently debates going on in the Skulltag forums regarding 3D floors in deathmatch mode, which are currently unsupported because they can only be rendered in GL mode. The developers want to keep all maps compatible in deathmatch for both software and hardware users, but there is a vocal group who wants 3D floors in all game modes. This is a very simple change in code: the rendering is already implemented and is merely disabled for deathmatch. If Skulltag was open source, a modification could easily be made to change this, thus appeasing a section of their community. This might lead to even more interesting developments down the road, any of which could be absorbed into the main Skulltag build as desired.


MG_Man said:

It's also been said that "Release Skulltag's Source!" as to, say, port it to Mac some day.
ZDoom has been open source for a while, and it still hasn't been ported to a Mac, and as it stands, even the developers admit that it won't be for a long while, if ever.



ZDoom's primary developers might not have any plans to work on a Mac port anytime soon, and/or they may be speculating that there is no community of Mac Doom users of any significant size. However, since ZDoom is open source, anybody could make such a port if they wanted to, primary developer or no. Furthermore, there may be a larger Mac user base for multiplayer ports than single player ports.

Old Post 07-05-08 16:57 #
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esselfortium
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MG_Man said:
ZDoom has been open source for a while, and it still hasn't been ported to a Mac, and as it stands, even the developers admit that it won't be for a long while, if ever.

Actually, yes it has.

Neil compiled ZDoom for PPC Macs in either 2006 or 2007, with everything working except for issues with sound, slope rendering, and some ACS stuff (which was assuming little-endian all over the place in its code, I think).

Compiling ZDoom or Skulltag for new x86-based Macs would probably not be much more difficult than compiling it for Linux, which is already doable.

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Old Post 07-05-08 17:03 #
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Gez
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MG_Man said:
So how come there hasn't been any parading for ZDaemon's source

Because the ZDaemon guys do not come here. Plain as that.

Given how this thread resulted in Graf closing off future versions of his renderer to Skulltag, I expect the Skulltag guys won't come here anymore either...


MG_Man said:
It's also been said that "Release Skulltag's Source!" as to, say, port it to Mac some day.
ZDoom has been open source for a while, and it still hasn't been ported to a Mac, and as it stands, even the developers admit that it won't be for a long while, if ever.


Because nobody with a Mac and some programming knowledge ever bothered to try to port it? Graf did not make a Linux version of his renderer. GZDoom in Linux only ran in software mode. Until someone on the DRD forum took matters in his own hands. This person, Costja, managed to port the hardware renderer to Linux, with the help of Torr Samaho who wanted Skulltag to be able to run in OpenGL mode in Linux, and now this works.

This simply shows that there aren't enough C++-savvy Mac-users interested in ZDoom.

Old Post 07-05-08 17:11 #
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Graf Zahl
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jute gyte said:

ZDoom's primary developers might not have any plans to work on a Mac port anytime soon, and/or they may be speculating that there is no community of Mac Doom users of any significant size. However, since ZDoom is open source, anybody could make such a port if they wanted to, primary developer or no. Furthermore, there may be a larger Mac user base for multiplayer ports than single player ports.




I don't own a Mac and have no knowledge how to do the system interface code for it. If anyone is willing to do a Mac port he is welcome and the result will certainly be put into ZDoom.

Old Post 07-05-08 20:02 #
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AlexMax
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MG_Man said:
Now, look at ZDaemon. It also has the same formula as "Security through obscurity" that Skulltag does now, and nobody's campaigning about releasing their source.


Having a two-way dialogue with the ZDaemon developers is impossible. They have set up their own microcosm of a community that their administrators have complete control over, and they don't take criticism of any kind lightly. Frank discussions such as the ones that have been going on in this thread would not have happened, it would have been closed by the second page with a "We've been over this, we're not changing our minds." and the links to Luigi's pages would have probably been met with bans. The Skulltag developers are at least willing to come out of their shells once in a while and defend their decisions on public forums.

On a technical level, almost anything ZDaemon has done, Skulltag has already done and done better, aside from a few nit-picky port specific oddities that have more to do with the older version of ZDoom than anything else (such as the different physics). ZDaemon is a relic, and the only reason it has any players at all is because it reached that 'critical mass' of players before Skulltag managed to, and Skulltag was late to the party on certain features such as demo recording.

Old Post 07-05-08 20:35 #
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John Smith
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Graf Zahl said:



I don't own a Mac and have no knowledge how to do the system interface code for it. If anyone is willing to do a Mac port he is welcome and the result will certainly be put into ZDoom.



Just start using fmod ex and a ZDoom mac port would be pretty easy, at least for intel macs.

Old Post 07-05-08 20:49 #
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