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Graf Zahl
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myk said:
Cases like having jumping or weapon recoil enabled by default are not too different.


Weapon recoil, yes. That also affects the game without the user's input. Jumping is another matter. Unless you actively use it it's of no consequence so it is less critical.
Old Post 12-21-09 17:55 #
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myk
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There's a bit of a difference but it's relative. People tend to do what a program encourages them by design. A cool method of implementing it would have been to have jumping off by default (but still with the option to enable it in general, of course,) with a JUMP lump marker or a MAPINFO option that enables jumping, for WADs that need or recommend it. It wouldn't force anything but would encourage the use most adapted to the level design in each case.
Old Post 12-21-09 18:17 #
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Graf Zahl
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Does not binding a key to jumping count?

Anyway, that decision was made long before I became involved. I would have made both jumping and crouching like you said. But that's not what the public wanted, so ...
Old Post 12-21-09 18:21 #
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entryway
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kristus said:
Looks to me like Risen3d doesn't like the 100mhz refresh rate on Entryway's monitor.

Something like that. Risen3D is not able to enumerate my videomodes or something. Anyway, it works fine on my home computer.
Old Post 12-21-09 18:26 #
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Sergeant_Mark_IV
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For playing Doom in a port that enhances the graphics, better if you use JDoom (A Doomsday modification). It's pretty simple, and have the best graphics ever!
Old Post 12-21-09 19:37 #
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esselfortium
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Er, what? JDoom is a component of Doomsday.

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Old Post 12-21-09 19:44 #
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Sergeant_Mark_IV
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o.o

When I downloaded JDoom, it already came up with Doomsday...

Bah, nevermind, you understand what I mean.
Old Post 12-21-09 19:47 #
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Jodwin
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I wouldn't say that Risen3D is unusable (since I was able to use it when I tried it few years back), but its launcher certainly is overly complex with way too many things to do. A good launcher should stay as minimal and require minimal user input (number of clicks) to use, and if you really do need to have more features put in your launcher, hide them in an advanced mode that most of the time you don't need to bother with.

Prboom+'s launcher is a good port-specific launcher: Simple, minimal and very quick and intuitive to use. I'd like to see a command line box or some smart way for demo recording since it's a demo recorder's port (for example, tick a box "record demo" and it'll automatically create a name for the demo like "pl2_X.lmp" for pl2.wad, where X is a variable number depending on existing demos), but that's it.

ZDL is good in that it's simple and it hides unnecessary features in the advanced mode, but it requires an unnecessary amount of clicks to start playing with the wad searching method it uses. It's also too small IMO, putting a lot of stuff in as small visual space as possible, making it very cluttery.
Old Post 12-21-09 19:51 #
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fraggle
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I'm pretty sure there must be something seriously wrong with any GUI that has a button to generate a DOS batch file.
Old Post 12-21-09 19:53 #
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Sergeant_Mark_IV
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Jodwin said:

ZDL is good in that it's simple and it hides unnecessary features in the advanced mode, but it requires an unnecessary amount of clicks to start playing with the wad searching method it uses. It's also too small IMO, putting a lot of stuff in as small visual space as possible, making it very cluttery.



Can ZDL launch ports that are not related to ZDoom? :O
Nice!
Old Post 12-21-09 20:03 #
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Enjay
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Jodwin said:
ZDL is good in that it's simple and it hides unnecessary features in the advanced mode, but it requires an unnecessary amount of clicks to start playing with the wad searching method it uses.


You can drag and drop a WAD (or any other file for that matter) onto the pwad/External files list.
Old Post 12-21-09 20:22 #
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Gez
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Sergeant_Mark_IV said:
Can ZDL launch ports that are not related to ZDoom? :O
Nice!

ZDoom uses fairly standard command line parameters. The same -iwad, -file, -deh etc. that most other ports also use since Boom.
Old Post 12-21-09 20:45 #
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Jodwin
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Enjay said:
You can drag and drop a WAD (or any other file for that matter) onto the pwad/External files list.

Not only does that kinda defeat the point of using a launcher (why not drag and drop to ZDoom instead? :P), but it's only a barely better option: Sure it's better when you're loading multiple wads, but it still takes unnecessary clicks to go to your wad folder and then drag the wads, no matter where your wad folder is. If you compare it to launchers that fill wad lists and let you select wads (and other files) with the pretense "one click - one file" (such as the prboom+ launcher or CDL), ZDL is definitely less effective (and thus less usable).
Old Post 12-21-09 20:57 #
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kristus
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fraggle said:
I'm pretty sure there must be something seriously wrong with any GUI that has a button to generate a DOS batch file.


Well. the only real difference between a dos and a windows batch file is the file extention. .BAT, or .CMD.
Old Post 12-21-09 21:00 #
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Patrick
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I got Risen3d to work once ever. I couldn't even get it to load some R3d wad I had. I'm going to stick with glboom+
Old Post 12-21-09 21:20 #
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DuckReconMajor
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myk said:
I think I remember at least one other such change in Risen3D then devolved into options after a critique, though I don't recall what it was.
Red damage flash?
Old Post 12-21-09 21:27 #
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entryway
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Jodwin said:
I wouldn't say that Risen3D is unusable (since I was able to use it when I tried it few years back), but its launcher certainly is overly complex with way too many things to do

It is not unusable of course. It's nice Boom compatible jDoom, but it is not so simple in use as I expect.

I am not a gzdoom user as well as I am not a DoomsDay or Risen3D user, but gzdoom is much simpler for me. I never had any problems with starting of gzdoom (it's funny to have even possibility to have problems with starting of port). Just extract it into my doom folder and type 'gzdoom hg.wad' <enter> in command line of my file manager. So simple.

Last edited by entryway on 12-21-09 at 21:46
Old Post 12-21-09 21:41 #
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Enjay
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Jodwin said:
Not only does that kinda defeat the point of using a launcher (why not drag and drop to ZDoom instead? :P)

Things that merely dragging and dropping onto the exe doesn't allow - eg command line options?

Jodwin said:
but it's only a barely better option: Sure it's better when you're loading multiple wads, but it still takes unnecessary clicks to go to your wad folder and then drag the wads, no matter where your wad folder is. If you compare it to launchers that fill wad lists and let you select wads (and other files) with the pretense "one click - one file" (such as the prboom+ launcher or CDL), ZDL is definitely less effective (and thus less usable).


Conversely, I don't like launchers that do all that list filling and one-click stuff. I like to load the wads I want to play when I want to play them and I don't want the launcher remembering other things - in the same way that I dislike playlists in media players and so on.

Also, my wads are stored in a place that is easily accessible. It's usually my exes that are nested away somewhere so having ZDL set up to use those is more useful. I also find that more intuitive. I'm used to menus taking me to exes and then using exes to open data files. I don't maintain a list of data files and have them open the exe. Nothing wrong with doing it that way, it's just not how I like to do it.

Most of all, however, I think that I like ZDL because it feels to me like a faithful GUI replacement for the old DOS command line, and that's exatly what I want. I just want something that loads the WADs that I want to play and allows me to add command line options. I don't want anything over and above that.

In short, ZDL may not suit you but it suits me perfectly. :)
Old Post 12-21-09 21:50 #
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entryway
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I am in total perplexity, when people praise a 'drag and drop' method. It is slowest and uncomfortable.
Old Post 12-21-09 22:06 #
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Graf Zahl
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Judging from the stuff you use, I'd have to agree. With my standard setup (I use Total Commander so my desktop is rarely visible) it's also rather clumsy and I practically never do it.

Command line rules!
Old Post 12-21-09 22:08 #
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kristus
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The command line is dead, ALL HAIL THE COMMAND LINE!

Yes, I use command lines a lot too.

I remember a program that allowed the CMD window to be embedded to the windows exporer. But I couldn't figure out how to make it stay like that after shut down so I ended up never using it.
Old Post 12-21-09 22:13 #
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Gez
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Jodwin said:

Not only does that kinda defeat the point of using a launcher (why not drag and drop to ZDoom instead? :P)

The point is that you can make sure they're in the correct order (some mods are capricious this way) and then you can save it as a profile option.
Old Post 12-21-09 22:49 #
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entryway
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Gez said:
The point is that you can make sure they're in the correct order (some mods are capricious this way)

Just select them from list with PWADs in correct order. Select aaa.wad, then select bbb.wad or otherwise

Gez said:
and then you can save it as a profile option.

It is saved automatically and is accessible from history combobox.

Last edited by entryway on 12-21-09 at 23:05
Old Post 12-21-09 22:58 #
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Jodwin
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Gez said:
The point is that you can make sure they're in the correct order (some mods are capricious this way) and then you can save it as a profile option.

A smart launcher loads the wads in the order you select them, regardless of selection method used. :P Also, depending on the wad selection method, profile options for each wad/port combo can be much slower to use, not to mention the unnecessary GUI clutter. I can understand profile configs for online servers and such where you need to keep track of wads, map lists, dmflags and more, but for single player they're just over complicating things.

Enjay said:
I like to load the wads I want to play when I want to play them and I don't want the launcher remembering other things - in the same way that I dislike playlists in media players and so on.

But aren't you being reminded of all the other wads when you open your wad folder to drag and drop your wads to ZDL, or when using ZDL's open wad dialog? Those too will show you a big list of wads, unless you have your wads stored in folders of five-ten wads each. The way you're using your wad folders with ZDL essentially makes the wad folders managed lists of wads.

But if it's the GUI you prefer in ZDL, I guess that's cool. Personally I can't stand the GUI for the aforementioned reason of being way too cluttered. I can understand not wanting to make the launcher too big, but ZDL is just ridiculously small IMO. :)
Old Post 12-21-09 23:09 #
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fraggle
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kristus said:


Well. the only real difference between a dos and a windows batch file is the file extention. .BAT, or .CMD.
I meant ANY kind of batch file.
Old Post 12-22-09 00:42 #
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kristus
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I don't see the problem really. Even if I would personally prefer a .lnk file to be created.
Old Post 12-22-09 00:47 #
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hawkwind
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Getting back to the Berserk "bug" , I realise that the normal doom behaviour is for it to last the whole level.

I have The Depths of Doom Trilogy. In its manual under Powerups>Berserk Packs it states this ...

"When you become Berserk, your screen will briefly turn red.

Duration: Time Based."

This makes sense, doesn't it ? This is why the option is there in Risen3D to keep the Doom behaviour for the whole level, or for about 30 seconds until the red has gone. Gamers choice.

Interestingly, all the other Powerups - and Blur/Invulnerability spheres in the manual, change the hue of the screen and have Duration: Time Based. The only powerup that lasts the whole level is the Computer Map, and no change in screen.

So the option for the user to have the Berserk Time Based is just to conform to the other powerups. Again, the user has the choice to emulate the normal doom behaviour for the Berserk.

I cannot see what the whole hullabaloo is all about.

Last edited by hawkwind on 12-22-09 at 02:36
Old Post 12-22-09 02:23 #
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DuckReconMajor
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I think the hullabaloo is mainly about the fact that the normal behavior is not the default. Even if the berserk duration is a "bug", it is something that dramatically affects gameplay when removed. And unless you read the changelog all the way through and catch the part about berserk (which is worded in a way that makes it hard to understand to begin with), or you happen to be playing through a map like E2M2 (like I did) you're not going to notice it. Players using Risen3D may blame a map for something that is the engine's fault.
Old Post 12-22-09 02:30 #
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myk
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Indeed, the change is pretty drastic. It distorts the power-up's function, in my opinion. It's tantamount to making the invulnerability make you take half damage, instead of none.

The berserk has two overlapping functions, full health and power punches. The idea is that the player should have to choose between saving it for health or using it early as a weapon to save ammo, except in those instances when both apply. The option pretty much disappears if the punch effect is limited to a short duration, because the health benefit becomes more important. It becomes another health item with only a minor boost to attack capabilities.

If such a behavior is going to be available, it should be as an alternate option, not as the default.
Old Post 12-22-09 02:42 #
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hawkwind
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DuckReconMajor said:
I think the hullabaloo is mainly about the fact that the normal behavior is not the default.


I accept that. If Graham decides to work on a new release, I will bring this up with him.
Old Post 12-22-09 03:06 #
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