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SoulPriestess
Green Marine


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Good ideas - but how are you going to convince Graf?

I've been trying to get that message to him for a year now, and just now he deleted GZDoom with my most recent attempt.

Good thinking... I really see productivity here.

The only thing I can see is letting someone fork the project. I'll happily host them.

But unless Graf decides to change his mind (it'd be a god damned miracle for something like that to happen), this is the reality we are faced with.

Old Post 04-14-10 01:37 #
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Gez
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Mancubus II said:
I don't understand how this differentiates those that express criticism of the major issues and those that work on the code, or are you saying that those who criticise are wrong unless they can prove it?


I don't feel like digging for it but I remember reading Torr Samaho (this one) saying that he was the one who pushed or enacted the ST's move from ZDoomGL to GZDoom, and that he wouldn't have taken over programming duties if it weren't for that renderer. Torr has also implemented various renderer additions, notably in the model code, as well as the texture rescaling code. I consider that he has proved he knows what he's talking about (most of the recent OpenGL features added to ST/GZD are his after all), and he says GZDoom is cool.

On the other end of the debate, people who say it sucks for this or that technical reason (great, but I have no real reason to believe these reasons given they've given me no proof that they know what they're talking about) or because of Graf's temperament (which is indeed poor as we've just seen once again, but that doesn't have too much relevance as far as code goes).

I've also seen (on the Skulltag forums mostly) criticisms levied against GZDoom and/or Graf Zahl (usually conflated as being one and the same) that was manifestly untrue, such as comments about how he doesn't care about performance right at the time when he was conducting benchmarks and testing code rewrites over on the DRD team forums.

So based on all that, yes, my opinion is that while Graf does have a puerile attitude to criticism, a large part of that criticism is actually full of shit.

Old Post 04-14-10 01:38 #
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SoulPriestess
Green Marine


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Gez said:
I've also seen (on the Skulltag forums mostly) criticisms levied against GZDoom and/or Graf Zahl (usually conflated as being one and the same) that was manifestly untrue, such as comments about how he doesn't care about performance right at the time when he was conducting benchmarks and testing code rewrites over on the DRD team forums.

So based on all that, yes, my opinion is that while Graf does have a puerile attitude to criticism, a large part of that criticism is actually full of shit.



During that time, Graf also repeatedly stated that he would never buy an ATI card, kept spreading ATI FUD, and when I told him I bought an nVidia replacement (which I can't use thanks to my tiny case and motherboard), he said something to the effect of "oh, you finally bought something decent?"

Yes, some of Graf's criticism, especially from the Skulltag community, is full of shit, but some of it is not. Graf's attempts to support ATI were marginal at best. I will give him credit for at least trying though. But his apathy for it overwhelms any effort he puts forth to support it.

On another point, Mancubus II is right about expecting commercial quality from a hobby product, but that still does not excuse how Graf treated some of his users - this alone is a source of a lot of his criticism - even some of the manifested bullshit.

Old Post 04-14-10 01:44 #
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Mike.Reiner
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SoulPriestess said:
On another point, Mancubus II is right about expecting commercial quality from a hobby product, but that still does not excuse how Graf treated a lot of his users.

I fully agree.

Hobby projects are not something we can demand extremely high quality out of, but that makes a poor excuse for his behavior.

Old Post 04-14-10 01:46 #
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Mancubus II
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SoulPriestess said:

On another point, Mancubus II is right about expecting commercial quality from a hobby product, but that still does not excuse how Graf treated some of his users.


While valid, that wasn't quite my point. My point was in the opposite direction - graf should not expect that just because he is doing something as a hobby that it won't get criticism. Whether the criticism is wrong or right is another matter. You will always have people spouting shit mixed in with legitimate issues - it's up to oneself to ignore or move on from those that are untrue and those that are valid.

Old Post 04-14-10 01:47 #
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SoulPriestess
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Yes, I do agree there.

Old Post 04-14-10 01:48 #
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Whoo
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SoulPriestess said:
but that still does not excuse how Graf treated some of his users.


Like the one time I posted about a problem that he never got back to me on.

Old Post 04-14-10 01:50 #
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Gez
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Whoo said:
Like the one time I posted about a problem that he never got back to me on.

He did admit defeat there: "I have absolutely no clue what's happening here." Then he moved it to Vexing Bugs. What else did you expect him to say?

Old Post 04-14-10 01:58 #
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AlexMax
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Whoo said:


Like the one time I posted about a problem that he never got back to me on.



That's a pretty poor example. Graf was quite level-headed there. If you're going to bring an example, at least bring a good one.

edit: Foiled by keeping the reply box open too long...

Old Post 04-14-10 02:04 #
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Whoo
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Read the last paragraph of his post. I expected a response from that.

Old Post 04-14-10 02:11 #
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Gez
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Whoo said:
Read the last paragraph of his post. I expected a response from that.

I guess the best you could have obtained would have been "No idea then."...

Old Post 04-14-10 02:26 #
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Mancubus II
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Ultimately, the people that are hurt by Graf's actions are the people who do not really complain and can use his product. Those that have ATI cards and complain the most can't use his product, so punish those that can use it? Where is the sense in that?

Of course, some people who can use his product have legitimate issues and criticisms, but the majority of gzdoom users are I'm sure rather quiet.

Old Post 04-14-10 02:32 #
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BilboHicks
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Spleen said:

Much better, it runs Sunder maps 9 and 10 without frame rate drops. Those 2 maps are very convenient as a benchmark for DOOM rendering engines, as they work on almost any port and are extremely hardware intensive (as opposed to nuts, which is more of a thinker benchmark).



I would have to concur with this :-)


Fair play, Graf did ask for development help for ATI driver support.
I have an ATI card, but haven't really delved much into the graphics programming end.
I take it that parts from the prboom+ source code cant be re-used in the gzdoom rendering engine?

Last edited by BilboHicks on 04-14-10 at 03:47

Old Post 04-14-10 03:39 #
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Xenaero
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Mancubus II said:
Ultimately, the people that are hurt by Graf's actions are the people who do not really complain and can use his product. Those that have ATI cards and complain the most can't use his product, so punish those that can use it? Where is the sense in that?

Of course, some people who can use his product have legitimate issues and criticisms, but the majority of gzdoom users are I'm sure rather quiet.



Mostly because we're all along for the ride, and nothing simple users can really do besides sit back and watch from afar. Most of us don't have a say in much, since the topic is mostly about 'ethics' and protocols rather than what's actually going to happen next, which seems up in the air until the dust settles.

So until then, it's just an interesting read.

Old Post 04-14-10 04:17 #
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Ralphis
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I use an ATI card and gzdoom works fine. Graf don't listen to these jokesters and keep on keeping on!

Old Post 04-14-10 04:20 #
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VortexCortex
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::sigh:: I hate to further this derailment, but it's breaking my heart to see some folks still praising "the emperor's new clothes".

I didn't want or expect Graf to take things this way, and I'm almost sorry I ever said anything at all, but someone had to. The way he bashed folks I expected him to take my bashing in stride, and perhaps try one of the options I mentioned for testing his code... (perhaps he did, and found out what I knew: BUGS!)

The fact is that no one else really had any experience with OpenGL coding, and couldn't stand up to Grafs statements (or didn't care to). The proof is in the pudding -- On many cards where other GL games run fine, GZDoom doesn't. Graf used his singular knowledge as leverage to "Argument from authority" and claim that ATI drivers / hardware suck (They most certainly ROCK just as hard if not more so than Nvidia / Intel), and that Doom is SO different from all other games that it can't be done any better than his way...

Seriously, do you think a company stays profitable SELLING top end graphics hardware that is utterly broken?
(wow, just....wow)

Even other games (like Spleen mentioned glboom+) which do things very similar to the way Graf's engine does things work fine on hardware that GZDoom has difficulty running on.

All I was really trying to do was to get Graf to admit that it's not really just ATI or Intel graphics hardware that is to blame for most of his bugs on those platforms.

Fact is: GZDoom wasn't tested against the OpenGL Sample Implementation (Reference Renderer) http://oss.sgi.com/projects/ogl-sample/

This software-only OpenGL driver lets you debug the guts of your OpenGL calls and find out why you're having errors. If your code works without throwing errors on the OGLS.I. then it's got to be a hardware issue... GZDoom has serious crashing issues when using the OGLS.I. renderer, so you can certainly NOT claim it's the hardware's fault -- The Debug Build of OGLS.I. + debugger tells you which line in your code has the errors!

Try it. Any GL developer is encouraged to have this available (since it's open source), and most graphics Hardware companies won't even talk to you about bugs unless you've got your code running on the OGLSI first. It's the second thing I fire up when I'm looking for my GL bugs (first is memcheck).

Now, I'm not saying that Graf had to test his code on this, but I'll be damed If I'm going to stand by while some one spreads FUD about ATI and Intel hardware just because he's not sure why his code is crashing in the first place, and won't take the time to find out! I've been lurking for years, but today I finally snapped.

No-one has to trust me. Go out and get some FREE testing tools and run them against GZDoom. If you do, you'll see some scary ass-shit that makes experienced coders run for the hills screaming, "NOoooo!"

I saw the hoards of evil memory munching bugs lurking just out of everyone else's sight, and I didn't run for the hills... I chose to join a team where I thought I could make the most difference. Give me a chance guys, I'm here to help, and I wont ever ragequit the community. (I took a position @ work so I could work 4 tens, and have a whole day off just for coding on ST! -- which I new would piss off my old boss, a dear friend: "There's Just something I need to do")

Also: When the new gal or guy @ work points out a bug in my code, I smile and buy them lunch as thanks!

This is why NO ONE should blame anyone for NOT working on it with him... I was willing to at one point, but I lurked in the forums for a few years, and I realized that he wasn't the type of dude I wanted to work with. Devs should help people, not belittle them and turn a blind eye -- Especially not when everyone is screaming about mysterious effects of a Bugosaurus Rex. That's like sticking your head in the beasts gaping maw and saying: "Well, it's not eating ME yet!"

(It's not so much the memory leaks, but using pointers to ram that's been freed, and using variables without initializing them first -- that's C 101, chapter 1 page 1, first paragraph: Using Variables!).

When people complain about something enough, even Microsoft will eventually own up and look into the issue...(Tada! Windows7 produced in record time!)

Graf shouldn't be re-labeling GZDoom to say only for Nvida, Its not even strictly following the OpenGL spec, OR the best practices of the 3D software industry... IMHO it should just bear the "Alph" or "Experimental" tag, use at your own risk. I know it hurts when someone calls your baby ugly, but that's no excuse for saying its shit doesn't stink.

And just so this shit isn't 100% off topic. The fastest port for wads depends on what wad it is, certain wads are for certain ports. Keep in mind that certain ports may run faster on your machine might run slower on others, and certain ports are still in Alpha stage...

Old Post 04-14-10 04:34 #
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rf`
Dr. Nosign


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John Smith said:

For anyone without an nvidia chipset, there's plenty of issues with GZDoom :p


I currently cannot even run GZdoom on my current setup, having an ATI dinosaur :/

Old Post 04-14-10 04:37 #
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Kappes Buur
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What the heck brought that on.

Here a guy is asking what the fastest OpenGL port is and people start slinging mud and shit at specifically GZDoom.

Grow up guys.

Graf Zahl did tell everyone who wanted to listen that GZDoom does not run well with the latest ATI cards, or rather the latest Catalyst drivers. He also told everybody up front, that he did not know how to fix it. Everybody had been made aware of the fact, that GZDoom does not run well on outdated equipment. What is different here from every other software developer specifying system requirements.

Graf Zahl is doing this as a HOBBY, as an unpaid service. So don't bitch if it doesn't work for you.

If only the many people here, complaining about GZDoom, would put their energy into developing an alternative. But complaining and bitching is so much more fun, isn't it, boys.

I like to thank Graf Zahl for many hours of Dooming Enjoyment and I for one hope, that he changes his mind.

So, if you don't like GZDoom, use any of the other 'flawless' doom engine ports.

Old Post 04-14-10 04:56 #
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Csonicgo


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rf` said:

I currently cannot even run GZdoom on my current setup, having an ATI dinosaur :/



Yet you would be able to run glboom+ just fine. Your chipset is an ATI RAGEPRO, which I got working in Linux with superb results for a chip of that age using glboom+ (~15 fps on EPIC.WAD, 20-25 FPS on the big GW2 maps). Even Legacy's GL mode worked (with dynamic lighting, no less) and that is an embarrassment.

When Quake3 ran at amazing speeds on a dual-SLI voodoo2 in 1999 but GZDoom gets <1 fps on an x850, is it the video card?

And this isn't about "compatibility", either. I'm not saying that GZDoom should have made 1000 exceptions for shitty cards. I'm saying that GZDoom and any GL renderer for Doom should be programmed competently enough to work on pretty much anything (with minimal code wrangling). Legacy's GL renderer, as shitty as it was, could probably do this. GLBOOM+ can do this. If There are any doubters, I have tons of dev screenshots from glboom+ running on the crappiest chipsets on the planet. Hell, I even turned detail textures and rescaled textures on for kicks.

Old Post 04-14-10 04:58 #
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Kappes Buur
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Csonicgo said:
... which I got working in Linux with superb results for a chip of that age ...

Which is not Windows. Obviously there must be differences in the way things work, if you get such good results with Linux.

Here would be a good opportunity for you, since you seem to have the skill, to also improve the renderer in GZDoom.

Or are you just typing away to sling some more mud?

Old Post 04-14-10 05:07 #
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Mike.Reiner
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Kappes Buur said:
What the heck brought that on.

Here a guy is asking what the fastest OpenGL port is and people start slinging mud and shit at specifically GZDoom.

Grow up guys.

Graf Zahl did tell everyone who wanted to listen that GZDoom does not run well with the latest ATI cards, or rather the latest Catalyst drivers. He also told everybody up front, that he did not know how to fix it. Everybody had been made aware of the fact, that GZDoom does not run well on outdated equipment. What is different here from every other software developer specifying system requirements.

Graf Zahl is doing this as a HOBBY, as an unpaid service. So don't bitch if it doesn't work for you.

If only the many people here, complaining about GZDoom, would put their energy into developing an alternative. But complaining and bitching is so much more fun, isn't it, boys.

I like to thank Graf Zahl for many hours of Dooming Enjoyment and I for one hope, that he changes his mind.

So, if you don't like GZDoom, use any of the other 'flawless' doom engine ports.



Maybe you should actually read before you talk. It's not the engine that is the problem, it's the attitude behind it. He can't take constructive criticism, he'd sooner just tell us all to go to hell.

Old Post 04-14-10 05:10 #
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Kappes Buur
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@VortexCortex

I must say, that your initial rant seemed to have inflamed the horde.

If it is true what you are saying, namely BUGS, what exactly stopped you from taken the GZDoom source code, which is (was) available, and adding your version of a renderer. Like you are font of saying, the proof is in the pudding. For that you did not need anybody's permission.

As much as I would like to, I am not able to do anything as far as programming is concerned, but you put yourself forward as the in-house guru and all you can do, as it seems, is bitch - that Graf's code is so much hooey.

Indeed, the proof is in the pudding.

Old Post 04-14-10 05:23 #
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Csonicgo


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Kappes Buur said:
Indeed, the proof is in the pudding.


I think there's more proof that you haven't read anything in this thread and are responding to each post as you reread the thread after being told you didn't read the thread. Read before you post.

Old Post 04-14-10 05:33 #
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Kappes Buur
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Mike.Reiner said:
Maybe you should actually read before you talk.


Ditto


Mike.Reiner said:
It's not the engine that is the problem, it's the attitude behind it. He can't take constructive criticism, he'd sooner just tell us all to go to hell.


That doesn't make any sense at all.

From what I am reading, the majority is complaining about the ATI problem or problems of running on old equipment.

So what, if he is difficult to deal with. So are most of the people on this forum.

And, in view of all the attacks on his person, ... well he did.

Old Post 04-14-10 05:34 #
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phi108
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EDIT: tl/dr: Too much drama, and yet I still wrote too much...

Maybe in this case, as in many other cases, the people annoyed by his attitude should just ignore the thread instead of voicing all their opposition yet again. Graf could have chosen to ignore it as well, it's just prople bashing his port, happens to every program.

In this case, maybe the bashing has taken it's toll. Maybe enough is enough. For awhile now there have been ATI problems, and for awhile he has admitted he can't fix them, while for an even longer time, he's been saying he could use an experienced GL programmer's help to improve it.

A problem might be, from day one, he released his experimental personal renderer after ZDoomGL stopped updating. But then everyone just came to rely on GZDoom, some wanting plenty of GL features added, while Graf had initially just done the "GL rendering of Doom levels" feature. Torr Samaho helped a bit, but he's busy on Skulltag bugfixing and multiplayer code. And so many times, Graf has said "I just don't have the time right now, I'd like more free time to improve the renderer."

This current crappy situation wouldn't have happened if not for Graf's attitude, but there are Graf-haters that can take some blame too. Though maybe I haven't been around long enough to become a Graf hater myself....

Old Post 04-14-10 05:35 #
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Mike.Reiner
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Kappes Buur said:

That doesn't make any sense at all.

From what I am reading, the majority is complaining about the ATI problem or problems of running on old equipment.

So what, if he is difficult to deal with. So are most of the people on this forum.

And, in view of all the attacks on his person, ... well he did.


I apologize for my presumption.

I don't have anything to say that hasn't been said.

Old Post 04-14-10 05:46 #
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AlexMax
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Kappes Buur said:
If only the many people here, complaining about GZDoom, would put their energy into developing an alternative. But complaining and bitching is so much more fun, isn't it, boys.


Okay, stop right there. Your entire post infuriates me, but let's just cut to the meat of it.

First off, people who are not graphics programmers are entitled to their opinions and criticism. I mean, never mind the fact that Graf picked on someone who was totally out of his league this time, there is nothing that states that Graf has to jump out of the woodwork at every opportunity to defend GZDoom in the first place.

But...and correct me if I'm wrong...your post seems to imply blame on the critics for Graf's behavior? You need to ask yourself who actually hit the 'delete' key on their FTP directory (HINT: Graf), over the complaints of a minority of users whom he didn't even have an obligation to listen to. That points to one of two worrying conclusions.

  • He's insecure. The loud minority got to him. This is not a reaction a mature adult has, especially over posts on an internet forum
  • He feels like he has something to prove. By deleting his work, he'll attempt to elicit posts like...well...the one you just made to try and guilt the critics into submission and make everybody feel sorry he left.

Note what's missing from either of those two options. Concern for the community. He doesn't care about you. He doesn't care about the ZDoom community at large. It's all about Graf, Graf, Graf and his precious ego. And the funny part is that I've got a good bet that there is a third option in the cards as well:
  • Do the second option, but come back in a week and continue on to much rejoicing of his fans who are still convinced that it's somehow the critics fault that he "left".

I do feel sorry. Not for him, though, but for you guys, because if Graf is doing what I think he's doing he's either throwing you guys under the bus to prove a point (in the second case) or playing you guys like a fiddle (in the third case), and any case he did what he did just because someone was critical of his source port...on the internet. Heaven forbid!

*takes a deep breath*

Ahh...much better.


Kappes Buur said:
If it is true what you are saying, namely BUGS, what exactly stopped you from taken the GZDoom source code, which is (was) available, and adding your version of a renderer. Like you are font of saying, the proof is in the pudding. For that you did not need anybody's permission.


It was already stated earlier that the reason a fork didn't happen is that he thought that the thing needed a complete rewrite.

Last edited by AlexMax on 04-14-10 at 06:50

Old Post 04-14-10 05:56 #
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John Smith
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I'm just going to stand up and say that I'm at least a little at fault for starting this, and I regret it. Yeah its easy to poke fun at Graf for having the ego (but then who here doesn't, really, the truth is most of us just don't get a chance to showcase it), and for not doing enough about ATI support. Even I was willing to take the argument Graf made for not having any help with working out the problems though, and everybody knows I am not Grafs biggest fan. You cant expect the man to shell out 200 dollars for a doom port, and you cant expect him to fix things if he doesn't have the adequate tools to fix it with.

Then VortexCortex chimed in, with what may or may not be valid points, I really don't know, but in a terribly rude fashion, and a couple other people decided to pile on, and now everything has snowballed into a pretty big shitfest. Yes Graf shouldn't have gotten so upset and made such a poor snap judgement, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have done it if we weren't all constantly riding his ass about it.

Anyway, like I said, I feel pretty awful and guilty for starting this whole mess, I should know well enough to keep my mouth shut really. Don't misread, I'm not taking responsibility for this whole thing, but I feel like I'm a part of it, and it's not a proud feeling. Anyway, Graf dear, if you're bothering to read the thread, do consider changing your mind. For all the people that really enjoy your port. And because you contribute invaluable programming knowledge to the community as a whole. And, uh, it would make me feel better too :P

Old Post 04-14-10 06:19 #
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Qaatar
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Quasar said:
First we drive off a great speedrunner.

Now we see the death of a source port due to a big shit-throwing fest.

This community is going to destroy itself from the inside with all of this ridiculous infighting and playground-level drama. Shameful.



I don't want to derail this thread or go off-tangent, but I think these two situations are entirely different. With Okuplok, it was just him leaving without a trace after learning that, god forbid, a few people (and a speedrunning legend at that in Vince C.) politely expressed their doubts about the validity of a few demos. The next thing you know, Okuplok deletes everything and leaves in a huff and without a trace after no antogonistic provocation or vitriol like what we have here.

Just wanted to throw my two cents in about something almost completely irrelevant...heh.

Old Post 04-14-10 06:31 #
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Quasar
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Qaatar said:


I don't want to derail this thread or go off-tangent, but I think these two situations are entirely different. With Okuplok, it was just him leaving without a trace after learning that, god forbid, a few people (and a speedrunning legend at that in Vince C.) politely expressed their doubts about the validity of a few demos. The next thing you know, Okuplok deletes everything and leaves in a huff and without a trace after no antogonistic provocation or vitriol like what we have here.

Just wanted to throw my two cents in about something almost completely irrelevant...heh.


Points noted. I'm just kind of still pissed off about that whole situation, and then this happens. It just seems like we are too divisive and assume the worst about each other these days.

Old Post 04-14-10 07:47 #
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