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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 7046
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Porsche Monty said:
Again, midi music was intended for ancient hardware


Really, I can't see where you're trying to go with this. Summary of the discussion:

Graf: "8-bit graphics are obsolete!"
Maes: "But you can do cool stuff with palettes!"
Me: "Yeah, like you can do cool stuff with MIDI but it's abandoned too."
You: "Nuh-uh, MIDI is obsolete!"

PCM recordings aren't more versatile than good old MIDI. Anything you can do with them, you can do with MIDI too because, guess what, after synthesis you have a PCM version of your MIDI song. The reverse is a lot less true. I've given a few examples already. The reason MIDI was dropped was because a lot of people had crappy hardware that made terrible, just terrible rendition of MIDI songs (see also: OPL :p) while disk space -- both on hard drive and on media with the jump from floppies to CDs -- increased immensely. So everyone could be given the exact same sound.

The one advantage of PCM is that you can put actual recordings of real-like stuff, but let's be honest, most game soundtracks are still synthesized from MIDI data by the composer's hardware, rather than sent to flesh-and-bone musicians. Hiring a philharmonic orchestra for your soundtrack is expensive enough to be only affordable by AAA studios.

Ironically, now that the processing power of modern hardware is strong enough to allow a game to run a softsynth, it'd be possible for MIDI to make a return, as by including a softsynth and a soundfont in your game you control the output as much as if you ship it with MP3s.

Old Post 06-18-11 19:16 #
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natt
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Posts: 248
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Porsche Monty said:


We're addressing different contexts here.



So why don't you explain the misunderstanding then, instead of just posting "nuuuu-uhhh, I'm right and you're wrong"

Old Post 06-18-11 20:45 #
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Aliotroph?
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Gez said:
The one advantage of PCM is that you can put actual recordings of real-like stuff, but let's be honest, most game soundtracks are still synthesized from MIDI data by the composer's hardware, rather than sent to flesh-and-bone musicians. Hiring a philharmonic orchestra for your soundtrack is expensive enough to be only affordable by AAA studios.


Funny. I hear it the other way from big game developers. Hiring people to emulate orchestras with synthesizers (like Blizzard seems to do a lot) costs more than hiring an orchestra.

There are lots of styles of music you are only going to emulate badly with even a pretty good softsynth and a good soundfont. Most game composers use a lot of synths and maybe even MIDI, but they have other tools too, so they can do things you won't get in a softsynth without a ton of extra effort.

The one real advantage of having MIDI in games is you can control what happens with it in real time very easily. You can do things like have the gameplay change the music itself -- not that anyone ever bothers.

Games with mod music were interesting, but on PC they went away before they got past having shitty 8-bit samples in music styles that called for better sound quality. I preferred the sound of older games with FM music of some sort.

Old Post 06-18-11 21:14 #
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esselfortium
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Gez said:
PCM recordings aren't more versatile than good old MIDI. Anything you can do with them, you can do with MIDI too because, guess what, after synthesis you have a PCM version of your MIDI song. The reverse is a lot less true. I've given a few examples already. The reason MIDI was dropped was because a lot of people had crappy hardware that made terrible, just terrible rendition of MIDI songs (see also: OPL :p) while disk space -- both on hard drive and on media with the jump from floppies to CDs -- increased immensely. So everyone could be given the exact same sound.

The one advantage of PCM is that you can put actual recordings of real-like stuff, but let's be honest, most game soundtracks are still synthesized from MIDI data by the composer's hardware, rather than sent to flesh-and-bone musicians. Hiring a philharmonic orchestra for your soundtrack is expensive enough to be only affordable by AAA studios.

Ironically, now that the processing power of modern hardware is strong enough to allow a game to run a softsynth, it'd be possible for MIDI to make a return, as by including a softsynth and a soundfont in your game you control the output as much as if you ship it with MP3s.


As a musician, I can't really imagine anyone agreeing to this unless the game was intended for a severely memory/storage-constrained system. Requiring musicians to go completely out of the way of their standard tools and workflow isn't really a great idea unless there's an honest need for it.

Besides, to keep up with the audio quality of pre-rendered music, this would mean having to compute reverb, filters, distortion, delays, EQs, compressors, and any other effects (of which there can be hundreds in a single song) in real time, sapping CPU power from the game in order to do something that could have just been played back from an MP3 file.

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Old Post 06-18-11 21:34 #
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Maes
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esselfortium said:
Besides, to keep up with the audio quality of pre-rendered music, this would mean having to compute reverb, filters, distortion, delays, EQs, compressors, and any other effects (of which there can be hundreds in a single song) in real time, sapping CPU power from the game in order to do something that could have just been played back from an MP3 file.


That would not have been an issue if mainstream computer audio had followed the evolutionary direction undertook by e.g. the Amiga or the Acorn Archimedes sound chips, or even by the GUS, and throw more bling on the hardware.

Sadly, in the name of cutting costs, modern soundcards have zero processing power of their own, and we're all practically using dumb CPU-driven DACs, without even hardware multichannel mixing like the Paula chip had. The only company that makes hardware with the capabilities you mentioned (Creative) unfortunately has terrible support and ridiculously overpriced shit, and has been plagued by unsolved hardware bugs with every product line since the original Sound Blaster line.

I often wonder why audio hasn't evolved like graphics cards have, on the PC :-/ You can get a GPGPU for like $30 that packs more punch for DSP stuff than even the best general purpose CPU, and yet when it comes to audio cards, you will be generally requested to pay upwards to $200 to get some overpriced card with a passive dumb CMedia chip and some gold bling thrown in.

Old Post 06-19-11 00:37 #
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Ladna
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They make outboard audio DSP cards that aren't crap. Musicians often use them to improve performance during recording or live so they can use more effects. I wouldn't exactly call them "mainstream", but that's really because hardly no one knows anything abbout audio. It's easy to look at Call of Duty 8 and say "whoa graphics!", but high-quality recordings or innovative techniques and sounds aren't really known or appreciated. Regardless, those cards are about as expensive as mainstream graphics cards, it's just that no one cares because you can render to .xxx. Creative is far from the standard; no one considers that pro audio gear even in the loosest sense.

Old Post 06-19-11 01:22 #
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Maes
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Ladna said:
They make outboard audio DSP cards that aren't crap. Musicians often use them to improve performance during recording or live so they can use more effects.


I think you're referring to audio interfaces here, which give more emphasis on multi-channel recording and output quality, rather than being able to apply real-time DSP.

A good audio interface doesn't have to provide any real-time DSP like a gaming soundcard would have (in fact they'd be pretty lousy if you tried to use them for games, EAX etc.), but instead has features like e.g. phantom power for mics, multi-channel recording/playback, low latency etc. which are more important real-time functions to a musician.

Any low-level X-Fi or even an older Audigy card easily beats most audio interfaces if you just compare real-time DSP capabilities and raw processing power as well as support for eax, directaudio, opelAL etc.

Some audio interfaces (e.g. those made by Avid Technology) are bound to use with specific software, still (e.g. to use Pro Tools you have to have the specific hardware, and viceversa).

The effects you're referring to were once achieved through external effect boxes, but increasingly even those are achieved by software plugins, if anything due to the convenience of not having to purchase solid hardware equipment or even spending nothing, as there are so many freeware plugins for mainstream software like CuBase/Pro Tools/Reason etc. that it made hardware racks mostly a thing of the past, at least for start-up musicians.

Old Post 06-19-11 01:54 #
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Csonicgo
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Those "audio interfaces" have become quite pricey. In the Sweetwater Catalogue, a High-end 256-stream AI card can suck you out of $3000 easily.

Old Post 06-19-11 03:02 #
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Graf Zahl
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Maes said:

I often wonder why audio hasn't evolved like graphics cards have, on the PC :-/




There's a few very simple reasons:

- most advanced sound cards still had some ridiculous limitations, like only 16 hardware channels for example so any program that could not be done within these limitations had to fall back to software handling
- compatibility issues. Card A supported feature X, Y but not Z and card B supported feature Y, Z but not X and so on
- a software mixer had to be provided anyway to support the 90% of systems having only a cheap onboard sound chip and those sound hardware that did not have the needed features.
- with the advent of multi-core CPUs (and later GPGPU) just using a good software mixer/DSP gave significantly more power and flexibility compared to what the hardware offered. The inevitable result was that people stopped using the existing hardware features due to the trouble they caused.
- bad drivers.

The bottom line was just that the hardware did not offer anything substantial in terms of acceleration, very unlike modern graphics cards. I still can play modern games in full 5.1 sound with my cheap-ass onboard soundchip, if I want to. On the other hand, if I activated the onboard Intel graphics chip, many even older games would get problems.

Old Post 06-19-11 07:57 #
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Gez
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Maes said:
The only company that makes hardware with the capabilities you mentioned (Creative) unfortunately has terrible support and ridiculously overpriced shit, and has been plagued by unsolved hardware bugs with every product line since the original Sound Blaster line.


And also they're assholes that nobody should ever like. Seriously, fuck Creative. They're corporate bullies worse than Microsoft.

Old Post 06-19-11 11:52 #
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Mike.Reiner
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Gez said:


And also they're assholes that nobody should ever like. Seriously, fuck Creative. They're corporate bullies worse than Microsoft.


Reminds me of when Vista rolled out, the Creative drivers were bad, and when somebody put together far better drivers Creative raised a legal shit storm.

Old Post 06-19-11 20:24 #
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