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aldiboronti
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Has anyone had any problems playing Requiem with this port? I use GZDoom for all my Doom needs and I've rarely run into trouble. But I'm playing Requiem at the moment and on Map 04 I'm running into bugs. They involve monsters in ambush not rising up from the floor at the proper moment. There's a Hell Knight near the start that stays submerged and some chain gunners in the next room. They can see you if you get too near and if you try to walk over them you sort of fall in with them and get ripped to shreds but they just won't appear, as I know they're supposed to, having played Requiem years ago and knowing it quite well.

My version of GZDoom is 1.5.6, I think that's the most recent. So has anyone else experienced this and is there anything I can do about it? (I suppose I could always try another port but I really don't want to do that, I find GZDoom just perfect for Doom play.)
Old Post 07-02-12 21:30 #
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Gez
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aldiboronti said:
My version of GZDoom is 1.5.6, I think that's the most recent.

Actually, 1.6.0 has been released just today; but the frontpage hasn't been updated yet (some issue with Graf's ISP apparently). Note that if you upgrade now, your saves will not be compatible.

I haven't heard about problems with Requiem and ZDoom or GZDoom. The automatic compatibility setting for that mod is unrelated.

I'll investigate a bit.
Old Post 07-02-12 21:45 #
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Graf Zahl
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It's probably just the map. The author wanted to be too smart for the Doom engine and placed a few walkover triggers in front of switches that can easily be skipped if you don't bump into the switch wall and trigger them from further away.
Old Post 07-02-12 23:15 #
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Processingcontrol
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No, it's just GZDoom. In vanilla doom it is impossible to trigger switches when other action lines are blocking them. Doesn't (G)ZDoom already have a compatibility setting for stuff like this?
Old Post 07-02-12 23:32 #
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Gez
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Yes, compat_useblocking.
Old Post 07-02-12 23:52 #
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Graf Zahl
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The switch constructs are still stupid. In vanilla they wouldn't work at all unless you stood directly in front of the wall.
Old Post 07-03-12 00:21 #
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fraggle
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Graf Zahl said:
It's probably just the map. The author wanted to be too smart for the Doom engine
Heh, I'm more curious as to how well GZDoom copes with MAP31.
Old Post 07-03-12 00:58 #
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Graf Zahl
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Not that well. That's one of the grossest rendering hacks I have ever seen. I doubt any true polygon renderer would have a chance with that level.

That said, the map works and the glitch is no show stopper. I have seen worse from other levels.
Old Post 07-03-12 01:04 #
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Processingcontrol
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Graf Zahl said:
The switch constructs are still stupid. In vanilla they wouldn't work at all unless you stood directly in front of the wall.

What's so stupid about them? They're a useful way to have one switch seem to do multiple actions.

Graf Zahl said:
Not that well. That's one of the grossest rendering hacks I have ever seen.


Gross? I think it's beautiful demonstration of the capabilities of the original doom engine. :)



Something tells me you're going to really hate TNT2 Map05...
Old Post 07-03-12 02:01 #
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Graf Zahl
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Processingcontrol said:

What's so stupid about them? They're a useful way to have one switch seem to do multiple actions.


No, it's not. It prevents the switch from working as you would normally expect. Switch-humping is not part of Doom's gameplay.




Gross? I think it's beautiful demonstration of the capabilities of the original doom engine. :)



Yes, gross? There's a fundamental difference between a feature and twisting a level to such a degree that you got a semi-working 'effect'. This one even glitches in the software renderer somewhat which disqualifies it as a feature in my book.

Another effect in the same category can be observed at the exit of Kama Sutra's MAP01. Also glitch-ridden to the extreme and of course non-functional with any hardware renderer.



Something tells me you're going to really hate TNT2 Map05...


I haven't seen it yet, but you people are sure a hopeless bunch.
Old Post 07-03-12 07:55 #
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_bruce_
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Took a look at it and I have to say wow - esp. Map31.
If the effect is intended for the original renderer then don't expect it to work on a fundamentally different one.
The poly based renderers are not the real thing.
Old Post 07-03-12 13:01 #
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chungy
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GZDoom is every bit a "real" engine -- it just doesn't behave exactly like the original Doom one. ;)

And for what it's worth, GZDoom performs rather well within the barriers of what was actually intended to be done on the original Doom. Crazy hacks to pull off tricks pretty much disqualifies those WADs from being used to criticize GZDoom.
Old Post 07-03-12 13:29 #
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Phml
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Can't eat soup with fork! AUUUGH!!! Stupid soup!
Old Post 07-03-12 15:52 #
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Processingcontrol
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Graf Zahl said:
I haven't seen it yet, but you people are sure a hopeless bunch.

How is having having a fun time trying to pull cool things off in vanilla "hopeless"?
Old Post 07-03-12 16:50 #
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Memfis
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I think Dr. Vanilla killed Graf's brother or something, I don't know how else to explain his hatred of it.
Old Post 07-03-12 17:04 #
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Vermil
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Graf Zahl said:
Not that well. That's one of the grossest rendering hacks I have ever seen. I doubt any true polygon renderer would have a chance with that level.

That said, the map works and the glitch is no show stopper. I have seen worse from other levels.


While it isn't a showstopper, the area doesn't work correctly in GZDoom (tested in the new release); there are invisible barriers in front of the Chaingunners in GZDoom, that aren't there in Vanilla.

Makes grabbing the blue armour much easier (i.e as you aren't under fire).
Old Post 07-03-12 17:36 #
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Graf Zahl
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Vermil said:


While it isn't a showstopper, the area doesn't work correctly in GZDoom (tested in the new release); there are invisible barriers in front of the Chaingunners in GZDoom, that aren't there in Vanilla.

Makes grabbing the blue armour much easier (i.e as you aren't under fire).



That map needs a compatibility option. Will be changed in ZDoom ASAP.


Memfis said:
I think Dr. Vanilla killed Graf's brother or something, I don't know how else to explain his hatred of it.



What I hate are idiotic statement like yours. They seem to be quite pouplar among the purists.
Old Post 07-03-12 18:59 #
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jongo
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Wow, i think he really misses his brother a lot.
Old Post 07-03-12 20:18 #
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chungy
Doomworld is so about bullshit excuses


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It's okay. Dr. Pepper murdered Dr. Vanilla long ago.

In seriousness, the fact that TNT2 is using weird kind of tricks to make vanilla Doom render levels in a certain way is actually worrisome. Requiem doing it excusable since there was no other choice in the day. TNT2 doing it means that it's excluding whole classes of source ports from properly playing the WAD, just to achieve the effect in vanilla (when there are better options around these days).
Old Post 07-03-12 22:08 #
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Graf Zahl
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chungy said:
Requiem doing it excusable since there was no other choice in the day.


Especially if it's just a proof of concept, like this map clearly is. In the end it's only a gimmick - nothing more. The effect doesn't add to the map, it's just there to impress the audience. Moreover, this effect was rightfully put into the secret level - the proper place for a gimmick effect.

Today such things are indeed a lot more questionable. There's no longer any need to prove a concept - those hacks still are mostly gimmicks because the way they have to be set up essentially means that they offer little towards gameplay - and ultimately they only cause problems with playing the map - not only of the visual kind normally. (And that doesn't even address the fact that most maps relying on hacks and gimmicks play like utter crap. Putting fake 3D stuctures into them doesn't make them play better by default. On the contrary: Most mappers that are too preoccupied with these things tend to forget the more important aspects of mapping.)

Using a hack is fine if you know why and how the hack works so you can control its effects. But from past releases I can say with certainty that most people haven't even grapsed the technicalities of a simple self-referencing sector and use them in a bad way that creates holes the player can fall into. So how am I to expect that these people manage to keep even more elaborate hacks under control?

And all that doesn't even consider that these days people play Doom on hardware that for specific reasons cannot use software rendering at all (iPhone, anyone?)

Back to Requiem: This WAD contains a few other interesting effects, most importantly a very elaborate deep water hack in MAP21. That one, unlike the one in MAP31 will be handled properly by GZDoom, btw.
Old Post 07-03-12 22:35 #
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AlexMax
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Graf Zahl said:
<hacks are bad>


Rendering hacks (and frankly, mapping hacks in general) in modern times are an unfortunate reality since past Vanilla and arguably Boom there is no one standard way to make maps that play well on all source ports.

Graf Zahl said:
And all that doesn't even consider that these days people play Doom on hardware that for specific reasons cannot use software rendering at all (iPhone, anyone?)


Is there any hardware device out there that is incapable of taking a buffer and blitting it to the screen somehow? I certainly wouldn't count the iPhone as one of those devices.

Last edited by AlexMax on 07-04-12 at 22:40
Old Post 07-04-12 22:18 #
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Graf Zahl
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AlexMax said:


Rendering hacks (and frankly, mapping hacks in general) in modern times are an unfortunate reality since past Vanilla and arguably Boom there is no one standard way to make maps that play well on all source ports.


Indeed. I think the best you can get if you want to target multiple ports is the shared subset that ZDoom and Eternity have in common.


AlexMax said:
[B]Is there any hardware device out there that is incapable of taking a buffer and blitting it to the screen somehow? I certainly wouldn't count the iPhone as one of those devices.


It depends. On platforms that don't allow direct write access to a bitmap you have to use some indirect means - and if those are too inefficient things look bad.

The sad fact is that direct video memory access is not that well supported anymore and even on PCs modern software has to resort to 3D interfaces and dynamic textures. And if that's the only way things can be done you need hardware and drivers that can do it fast.

I don't know the iPhone's capabilities but I know that one of the projects my company worked on had to be scaled back in this area because it couldn't update fast enough (FPS broke down to 20.) We had to use pregenerated textures to circumvent this bottleneck.
Old Post 07-04-12 23:12 #
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GhostlyDeath
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Graf Zahl said:
Indeed. I think the best you can get if you want to target multiple ports is the shared subset that ZDoom and Eternity have in common.


What about all of the other ports?
Old Post 07-05-12 02:07 #
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Graf Zahl
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What about them? Nothing!


If someone wants to use advanced features there isn't much choice other than ZDoom and Eternity - and the common subset of both will still give any mapper a pretty good market share.
Old Post 07-05-12 07:46 #
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Gez
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AlexMax said:
Rendering hacks (and frankly, mapping hacks in general) in modern times are an unfortunate reality since past Vanilla and arguably Boom there is no one standard way to make maps that play well on all source ports.

Hackless maps play well on all source ports.

Renderer hack maps don't play well on OpenGL source ports (Doomsday, Risen3D, GLBoom+, GZDoom, Vavoom, EDGE, Legacy GL, etc.).

If you absolutely, desperately want to have a map with a 3D structure, then maybe you should make that map for ports that have such a feature, rather than for ports without.
Old Post 07-05-12 08:54 #
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DaniJ
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Graf Zahl said:
ZDoom and Eternity - and the common subset of both...

What _is_ that exactly, some early version of MBF with a few new action functions and line specials?
Old Post 07-05-12 14:28 #
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Graf Zahl
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At the moment, with Doom format maps, a subset of the portal features can be used with both engines, plus slopes, 3D midtextures and linked sectors.

Once Eternity supports UDMF the common subset will contain ACS and a mucgh larger number of action specials.
Old Post 07-05-12 15:24 #
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DaniJ
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I see, thanks for the info.
Old Post 07-05-12 15:40 #
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hawkwind
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Gez said:
Renderer hack maps don't play well on OpenGL source ports (Risen3D).


Regarding Risen3D, I'm guessing you haven't checked for this. Requiem map 31 was mentioned. It renders this perfectly.

It also supports most commonly used vanilla hacks as well.
Old Post 07-07-12 03:39 #
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Vermil
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So it does; I guess that shows up the other OpenGL ports.

Still doesn't play correctly though; like GZDoom, there are invisible barriers blocking the Chaingunners.
Old Post 07-07-12 08:53 #
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