We're not really going to go there are we?
Nah, I don't care what ZDaemon does, whether they steal code or ban people or whatever. I will confess I laughed a little when I read the "improved polyobject" line in their changelog a while back, because it was basically the EE dynasegs features, but again I don't care.
I do care when their devs and admins come to Doomworld and make completely unsubstantiated claims. There's no way to verify whether or not they derived their implementation from EE or ZDoom without ZDaemon's source code, and there's no reason for me to take their word for it. The ZDaemon team consistently and publicly acts in bad faith with regard to the rest of the Doom community, players, modders, mappers, server admins, fellow developers, no one's immune. There's no reason to expect them to behave better privately.
Furthermore I think it's particularly lame that while ZDaemon devs have access to all the open code of the rest of the Doom source port community (it's the last closed port isn't it?), we're not granted the same privilege. Not even the other C/S ports are closed. The Doom source port community is defined by cooperation, open discussion, sharing, research and experimentation. Just look at the initial dynasegs announcement for high-level, constructive discussion between Graf, you and others. This is something we should all be proud of, personally I am. ZDaemon, however, contributes almost nothing to that community, but reaps all its rewards.
I don't want to pursue the dynasegs thing though, no. Frankly it's none of my business.
So, if you want proof, get a lawyer and sue for it.
I was being intentionally disingenuous. I don't want proof. I'm just pointing out that you guys saying over and over again, "we TOTALLY didn't steal that code" is meaningless. When have you guys ever come out and said, "whoops, we had some bad code in ZDaemon, our bad guys"? You can hopefully see my point here.
Or convince Venom to release it.
That would be nice, but it's highly unlikely that he will. Furthermore, why would he release it if it's derived from EE or ZDoom? This is just not a helpful suggestion.
Ultimately, we decided that since the author couldn't be bothered to ask, we couldn't be bothered to maintain legacy support, nor be bothered to reach out and say "btw, here's the updates."
The protocol was further intentionally changed to support both additional functions and obfuscate it further from doomseeker.
So you don't want to spend the effort to maintain legacy support, but you do want to spend the effort to lock Doomseeker out? That doesn't really reflect well on you guys.
Don't you already do this with IDE anyway? Why don't you just have Blzut3 talk with bond and get the updates from him? Or I don't know, you could spend 5 minutes and send Blzut3 an e-mail.
Isn't the protocol HTTP anyway? If not, why not? HTTP is amazing, plus you really don't need to keep anyone updated on anything.
Stating such an allegation puts the burden of proof on you.
I was being intentionally disingenuous. I don't want proof. I'm just pointing out that you guys saying over and over again, "we TOTALLY didn't steal that code" is meaningless.
Really what is this whole discussion about? We built the infrastructure and we pay hard money and spend our free time to keep it running. We decide who interacts in what ways with it. If we decide to harden the security by obfuscating the protocol then we can do just that and we do not need to explain or defend this step. End of story.
I agree completely. You're absolutely within your rights to do everything you've done. A lot of people--including me--think that locking Doomseeker out of ZDaemon is controlling, petty and spiteful, even if you had every right to do it. If it's not, convince us, unless you don't care what people think, but then I don't know why you would post here in the first place.
If you're having trouble with the concept of acting badly even though you're within your rights, many examples come to mind (sorry Lyfe, haha). Making fun of kids, having an affair, etc.
After thinking about it for a minute, I think there's kind of a misunderstanding happening about Doomseeker & ZDaemon. There was a published library to interact with ZDaemon at the IDE site. It had been around for a while and worked pretty well. From Blzut3's point of view, bond (a friend of the ZDaemon team and developer of a ZDaemon launcher) was hosting a library to interact with the ZDaemon master. Blzut3 used it and it worked. Then he gets word that Kilgore is pissed and is gonna go thermonuclear on his ass, and his ZDaemon plugin stops working.
No one searches for like, a Twitter library and then e-mails Evan Williams to make sure it's OK to use it. It's unreasonable to expect Blzut3 to have done that in ZDaemon's case.
Last edited by Ladna on 12-07-12 at 01:49