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Oxygenic
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Hello there, I just wanted to hear, which one of the windows 9x source ports is the best and which one you would recommend a newbie to use.

I've only played with two different sourceports (zDoom and Legacy). Legacy worked just fine, zDoom didn't work at all, because I don't have the required md2 files :(
Anyway, I could use a little help here......

Thanks for now.....
-Oxygenic

Old Post 09-13-02 21:14 #
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Biffy
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There must be some mistake, zdoom does not use md2 files at all. Do you mean zdoomgl? You can get a fairly recent version of zdoom, see zdoom.notgod.com/ftp and download the beta33.

Old Post 09-13-02 21:41 #
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Oxygenic
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of course I was talking about zDoomGL, why else would I use that "engine" ??? :P
I need the md2 files for zDoomGl........

-Oxygenic

Old Post 09-13-02 22:12 #
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timmie
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Oxygenic said:
Hello there, I just wanted to hear, which one of the windows 9x source ports is the best and which one you would recommend a newbie to use.

I've only played with two different sourceports (zDoom and Legacy). Legacy worked just fine, zDoom didn't work at all, because I don't have the required md2 files :(
Anyway, I could use a little help here......

Thanks for now.....
-Oxygenic



delete the file "md2.ini" and start zdoomgl with the "-nomd2" command and you should be good to go. I'll be making the new zdoomgl a lot more tolerant of missing md2 models when I get around to implementing md2 models :)

Old Post 09-13-02 22:32 #
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Draconio
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ZDoomGL is pretty worthless, if you want GL Doom then JDoom is better.

Non-GL ZDoom is good, but there is a good deal of annoyance to be had due to the split between the (stable) 1.22 and the (rather buggy) 1.23 beta. I don't use this port as much as I used to.

Personally I think PrBoom is the best port, because it has less unneccessary BS, but it's not the most newbie friendly.

My advice would be to stick with Legacy.

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Old Post 09-13-02 23:10 #
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myk
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I recommend using the original DOS executables, since they run perfectly on Win9x, unless you have a sound card that isn't SB16 combatible. But do try out all the source engines you can if you haven't. People can tell you what they like, but only by trying different things can you really learn what suits you most and why.

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Old Post 09-13-02 23:37 #
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JoelMurdoch
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myk said:
I recommend using the original DOS executables, since they run perfectly on Win9x


Just a pity they can't run most modern levels worth a damn, either for lacking some features or crashing due to innummerable idiotic bugs.

Oxygenic, you really should have at least three. Eternity is the best for general purpose Dooming, playing the original Doom levels and "vanilla" (ie: no port specific features used) levels. It's reliable and stable. More levels are starting to use Legacy, so have that on hand. ZDoom is required by lots of WADs so have the latest beta handy. If you've got a decent system with a 3d card, JDoom is the most reliable and best looking of all the 3D card ports.

Old Post 09-14-02 00:28 #
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myk
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JoelMurdoch said:
Just a pity they can't run most modern levels worth a damn, either for lacking some features or crashing due to innummerable idiotic bugs.


What? Duh, he obviously won't be using doom2 to run zdoom WAD! Bugs? Running a plain doom WAD the original is not more likely to crash than most source engines, that may refuse to run if there's, like, a patch missing or something.

Plus, most engines can't run maps made specifically for other engines anyway, so... Obviously the best bet is using whatever the map was made for, unless it's obvious that is not the case, like when the TXT says VPOs are common, which could warrant using a "limitless" engine for an old map.

And that coming from a coder... meh, one would expect better. Don't worry, it's not like everyone will suddenly start using doom and doom2 right now, "ports" already have their established place. I guess this happens to people that code or edit more than they play.

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Old Post 09-14-02 01:37 #
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JoelMurdoch
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What? Duh, he obviously won't be using doom2 to run zdoom WAD!



What? Pay attention myk. The guy asked "which one of the windows 9x source ports is the best and which one you would recommend a newbie to use."

In the pre-source port days, I used to help dozens of people with their addon problems. Unless you had a good grasp of the theories behind them, DeuSF and Dehacked were very difficult to use. Once Boom came out, the queries have slown down to near zero.

And don't be so naive as to assume people know about ports. Say someone downloaded a ZDoom WAD who wasn't familiar with the community, and they hadn't played Doom for a few years or have just picked up Doom from a bargain bin. They probably would skim the top of the text file to get the level number, load it up, and then get pissed off when the Hexen map format crashed the engine.



Bugs? Running a plain doom WAD the original is not more likely to crash than most source engines


Bullshit. Load up Requiem in Eternity. Skip to level 12. Save. Works well don't it? Repeat with the old 1.9 exe. See the difference? Now, repeat the above in Doom II MAP30, but this time reload the savegame. Odds are, in the old 1.9 engine you'll see the famous "venetian blind" crash, whereas Eternity works fine. MAP12 of Requiem is complex but I've seen more complex work OK in the 1.9 engine, and MAP30 one of the most stupidly simple maps in existance.

Lee Killough once said to me that original engines are so full of bugs "it's a wonder they worked at all". I'll wager he and the TeamTNT coders spent almost more time fixing bugs than they did coding new stuff during the Boom and MBF development phase.



Plus, most engines can't run maps made specifically for other engines anyway


No shit sherlock. All I said was Eternity was best for general purpose Dooming, and that having ZDoom and Legacy on hand was a good idea due to their common use.



And that coming from a coder... meh, one would expect better.



What?


I guess this happens to people that code or edit more than they play.


Now you've really lost me. Coders have far more insight into the problems of the original engine than "civilians" so I really don't get your angle.

So, to clarify my answer to the original question, I highly recommend the use of Eternity for "newbies".

Last edited by JoelMurdoch on 09-14-02 at 04:47

Old Post 09-14-02 04:42 #
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myk
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Heh, wow, some great examples you gave with that obscure savegame bug no one but a coder knows about. Do you use savegames very often? Note that your evidence changes nothing. I never said doom and doom2 never ever crash, or anything.

I respect Lee Killough a lot for what he's done. He may have told you whatever... but your theory seems to be based more on this and on looking at the code more than on experience.

Furthermore, you're the one that tried to diss my quite valid post. It's not like it was a "ports suck, use the original." On the other hand, it even encouraged him to try things out. Yours was, though. Are you in charge of "Biz" in the eternity project or something? Sure sounds like you're selling a product.

You're misled about the original engine in use if you believe it's so unstable. Also, people who don't use it are missing stuff... things I think make this game my favorite computer game.

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Old Post 09-14-02 05:13 #
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DOOM Anomaly
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This ol' slow-goer sticks with Legacy, and Zdoom, and ZdoonGl, and Jdoom, and Boom, and Eternity, and Vanilla Doom..and so on...Anyways my meaningless point is that I find all these sorce parts and others good enough for me, but personally I use Legacy the most, its easy for me, it doesn't any big words, like "the" 'n "and"

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Old Post 09-14-02 07:31 #
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lćmćnt
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What makes Eternity better for "General purpose dooming" than prboom?

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Old Post 09-14-02 07:40 #
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DOOM Anomaly
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lament said:
What makes Eternity better for "General purpose dooming" than prboom?


This ol' hunny dripper hasn't gotten around to trying prdoom yet...I will sometime son though, I hear good things about it. Just like I hear those never-ending voices in my noodle...

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Old Post 09-14-02 07:44 #
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myk
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lament, not much in respect to being able to play "normal" WADs, or even boom-compatible ones. Its console and few additional features (mlook, obituaries, etc.) might attract some people, though. Otherwise that could mean "being able to run a broad range of available WADs" in which case you could say it adds the smmu or eternity WADs to those prboom can play. But in this respect zdoom and legacy would have a broader range of playable WADs to choose from.

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Old Post 09-14-02 08:09 #
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JoelMurdoch
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lament said:
What makes Eternity better for "General purpose dooming" than prboom?


Nothing at all. PrBoom's a good choice too.

And myk, I wasn't "dissing" your post. The guy asked for opinions on ports. I gave mine and disagreed with yours. Deal with it.

Old Post 09-14-02 08:36 #
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myk
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Joel, yeah. I dealt with it, responding to your (derisive) disagreement.

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Old Post 09-14-02 09:04 #
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sirjuddington
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All ports are good. I play ZDoom mostly, though.

Old Post 09-14-02 09:22 #
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Ultraviolet
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myk: There's nothing obscure about the savegame bug Joel was talking about. Read the text files for levels like Vrack/Vrack2 and any of the newer huge levels. They will say "Don't even try to save using vanilla."

I even read about the savegame bug in levels from 1994/95 that weren't even really all that big.

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Old Post 09-14-02 09:24 #
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myk
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I know about the savegame limit (on things on the map) which is not properly a bug anyway. He mentioned the "Venetian Blind" and described that it can happen on map30 (the savegame limit instead crashes without saving anything.) That's the "obscure bug" I meant. I'm not familiar with it.

By the way, and I'm not the 1st person to say this, saving and doom are incompatible when combined with the reasons that would make someone choose specifically doom and doom2 as preferred engines.

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Old Post 09-14-02 10:09 #
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Ultraviolet
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Uh... pardon the reference... but...
WHAT YOU SAY ? ? ?
But seriously, I didn't understand a word of that last sentence.

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Old Post 09-14-02 10:51 #
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myk
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To be specific, it means that the main point in using doom instead of a more limitless or advanced port will most likely be to accentuate "gameplay" or the challenge of playing as opposed to admiring eyecandy, following some kind of story or experimenting a mood or evironment. In such a case playing through maps while saving to retry sections or to come back to exploring the WAD later makes little sense. Instead normally one plays each map from scratch to the end and then, when familiar with each map, possibly the whole episode or megawad. In other types of play a person may play through a WAD once or twice, possibly helping himself with savegames, and say he "beat it." He would then move on to another WAD.

Actually, playing like this means spending more time thoroughly playing specific maps, which might mean having to restrict the amout of maps one plays.

I don't mean one could not play like this using other engines, but if someone chooses to use doom2 over other engines in most cases, this is the reason, from what I know.

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Old Post 09-14-02 11:24 #
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Oxygenic
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Thanks guys.....
I really appreciate this....

-Oxygenic

btw, I just can't wait untill Doom ]|[ comes out......

Old Post 09-14-02 18:29 #
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NiGHTMARE
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Some points that have not been addressed in this thread:

1) ZDoom v1.22 is LESS stable than ZDoom v1.23 beta 33, not more stable. People merely conclude that it's less stable simply because it's a beta and not a "proper" version. This is wrong.

2) It isn't only cards that aren't SB16 compatible which won't play sound in the original exe's. The SB Live! or SB Audigy are both SB16 compatible, yet they won't give you sound.

3) If you don't like wasting your time by messing around with programs like DeHackEd and DeuSF, use a modern port for a wad which contains sprites and/or comes with a deh files.

4) A Doom newbie will most likely want to save quite often, as they probably won't have developed the skills required to, say, play all the way through Requiem without saving. Combine this with what Myk himself said about not using the original exe's if you want to save, and it makes little sense for a newbie to use the original exe's :)

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Old Post 09-14-02 19:04 #
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SlayeR said:
All ports are good. I play ZDoom mostly, though.


ditto.

(nothing else needs be said, cuz he already did)

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Old Post 09-14-02 19:32 #
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myk
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NiGHTMARE:

2) Aren't those cards that can emulate SB16? I have a Creative SB16 card, but I also have a quite similar card by some more obscure producer which functions like a SB16 (but doesn't generally sound as good.) Oh, by the way, do you know if fully compatible SB16 cards can still be acquired (are still produced by someone)? I mean "fully" in this case by meaning it could run DOOM sound. As time passes changes in technology start to make ports a requirement, as hardware designed for DOS becmes scarce. Silly greedy industry!

3) Joel kinda said that already, but I guess you stated it more clearly as advice.

4) That's more likely if we take a "newbie" as a 2D being that is easily defined, or follow some sort of statistic to reach the answer to the question. But newbies come in all shapes and sizes. Many are already familiar with FPSs or otherwise adapt to playing decently quite fast. And savegames aren't much help if the newbie quickly becomes interested in the style of play that I mentioned. To get good at it he might not find it convenient to rely on handicaps he's going to have to get rid of anyway. Also, it's not like most maps for doom exceed the savegame limit, that is a minority. In addition, what I stated above was my opinion on the best port as requested, which isn't necessarily going to be the most versatile or anything. I added my opinion, which may help or suit some but not others. It isn't a simple yes/no question, to me.

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Old Post 09-14-02 19:35 #
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NiGHTMARE
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2) Yes, that's what I meant, the SB Live! and Audigy are both supposedly 100% SB16 compatible, as they both come with an extra driver specifically dedicated to this function, but there's still not sound in the original .exe's. You also get no sound/heavily distorted sound in Boom, MBF, SMMU, DOS Eternity, etc.

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Old Post 09-14-02 19:42 #
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Heh.
myk and Joel: can't we all just get along?! :P

Oxygenic: I would really suggest using ZDoom. It's the port I like the best, and therefore, also the one that I use the most. IMO, it's what the original .exe could/should of been like if the id guys had had time to implement that ZDoom boasts.

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Old Post 09-15-02 00:18 #
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ZDoom all the way, ZDoom 2.0 pre(s) recommended if you can find any!

Old Post 09-15-02 03:17 #
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Old Post 09-17-02 23:55 #
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My favorite source port is ALPHA 0.4.

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Old Post 09-18-02 01:42 #
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