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Kid Airbag
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Shaviro said:


Well nobody in here said "WOW THOSE MAPS SUCK YOU SUCK HAHAHAHA.".

Damn, I knew someone was going to say that, but I thought it would have been redundant to put in parentheses "<--- exaggeration."


If you read Tarin's post, you'll notice that in the first line he gives his opinion. "Someone must have changed the pictures. I don't see anything too "wow" or "ass kicking" there."

The next line he gave his point about OpenGL versus not OpenGL.

Bitching about how people like it just cause of OpenGL isn't helpful or constructive at all, though.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:22 #
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DOOM Anomaly
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Tarin said:

NO, I was NOT implying that. Read my posts.


Archvile46 said:
Then give them some advice on how to make them more special. They certainly aren't utter crap as it seemed you and some others were implying.

It seemed that way to Him, he never said thats the way you put it. Read his posts. :P

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:24 #
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Kid Airbag
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Shaviro said:


Please be so kind of pointing me to where Tarin said it sucked or anything like that.

Well, I did say "you and others."


Someone must have changed the pictures. I don't see anything too "wow" or "ass kicking" there. Oh wait, it's OpenGL WOWOWOWOWOWWOWOWOWOWOWO ASS KICKING R0X0RING !!!!!!!!!!!11111111
This is blatantly sarcastic and is clearly not helpful at all.


To be completely honest, that is one of the ugliest levels I've laid my eyes on in a while. The detail is sub-Doom2. There's no actual architecture. The choice of textures is boring.
If that's not saying the level sucks, I don't know what would be.


You guys are easily pleased, very easily pleased



Uhmm.. ... cool? ... I don't see it.
More unhelpful comments.

It's funny that the majority of the people who don't like these maps are very good mappers themselves. It's very disappointing to see such great mappers not help anyone else who is aspiring to be as good but rather just criticize them in a totally unconstructive manner.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:30 #
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Shaviro
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I am not taking fredrik's case. Don't try to make it so. Neither Tarin or I said anything harsh, so please direct your 'flames' (not just you) elsewhere.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:33 #
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boris
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Ok, let's see... there was one post that actually directly insulted the looks of the screenshots. The funny thing is, that the person who did not write this post get all the bashing. Heh.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:33 #
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rf`
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So you're saying we should blame all this on Fredrik?


DOOM Anomaly said:
...Man, you guys really need to stop getting spelling lessons from Ravage, it's not healthy.

Cut it out dammit. I'm working on my spelling. Ok?

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:39 #
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Kid Airbag
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Maonth and Tarin:

I don't see where you are calling my argument "bashing" or "flaming."

I'm only arguing (if you can call it that) with you two because you two are the ones who keep replying here. If Fredrik were here, I'd be talking to him, too. And I certainly never said you two were the only ones doing it. I said "you and others."

What you said itself wasn't harsh, but it was the manner in which you said it that was rude. I just don't see why you found it necessary to respond that way when you could have just as easily stated your opinion that the levels maybe aren't so good, and given some friendly adivce on how to improve them.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:40 #
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boris
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Arch: not your posts, but have a look again at Vampirajay's post. And why is anybody attacking shaviro at all? He did not even give his opinion about the screenshots.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:43 #
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People are attacking Shaviro? What has teh world come to? Innocent people are being ambushed! Stop the madness!!

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:45 #
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Grazza
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Archvile46 said:
It's very disappointing to see such great mappers not help anyone else who is aspiring to be as good but rather just criticize them in a totally unconstructive manner.
When you know you're good at something, you tend get pretty thick-skinned, and it's easy to forget how sensitive you were to criticism (including implied, apparent or imagined criticism) when you were starting out. [Yes, I speak from experience, albeit not in Doom map-making.]

This shouldn't become a flamewar about who said what, who implied what, who misconstrued what, etc. There's only one important issue here: is Jay going to receive enough encouragement and constructive comment to reconsider her decision to quit?

Old Post 11-17-02 22:46 #
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Grazza said:
This shouldn't become a flamewar about who said what, who implied what, who misconstrued what, etc. There's only one important issue here: is Jay going to receive enough encouragement and constructive comment to reconsider her decision to quit?


well. You should make the wad for you and not everybody else.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:47 #
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Spike
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Shaviro hasn't made any actual comment on the screenshots.

Tarin appears to be biased against GL port maps because they recieve more attention due to eye candy. I've seen plenty of maps with similar detail recieve reasonable reviews.

Fredrik blatantly ridiculed the shots with no attempt to give advice or constructive criticism. Funny, as he's a veteran mapper himself and from what i've seen his maps are excellent.

So yes, Fredrik does deserve the majority of the blame.

I was the one that chose the Doomsday port, and i was the one who posted the screenshots in the hope to give Jay some encouragement at a particularly low time. Obviously, i've done more harm than good in that she wants nothing more to do with the mapping in the project.

She's completed 4 maps prior to this one, so she's still a 'newbie', if you want to put it that way, when it comes to editing, and she's done massively well since.

Shav - if you truly were trying to mediate between Jay and Tarin, then the least you could have done was to help Tarin to understand her side a little better. She even apologised and requested constructive comments.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:49 #
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Shaviro said:


well. You should make the wad for you and not everybody else.

But the point of making wads and releasing them or just making wads overall, is to share it with other people, show them what you can do, leave them in awe after experncing it. But, a word to the wise, if your wad sux as much as my first one does, plz, dont release it. ;P

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:50 #
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DOOM Anomaly said:
But the point of making wads and releasing them or just making wads overall, is to share it with other people, show them what you can do, leave them in awe after experncing it. But, a word to the wise, if your wad sux as much as my first one does, plz, dont release it. ;P


what wad?

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:52 #
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Spike
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Shaviro said:


well. You should make the wad for you and not everybody else.



Screenshots are posted for RTC all the time. Are you not expectant of other people's opinions? You have a hell of a lot of people working on it. I think you even asked me at one point.

You can't say that you're making the WAD just for yourself.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:53 #
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Kid Airbag
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Tarin said:
Arch: not your posts, but have a look again at Vampirajay's post. And why is anybody attacking shaviro at all? He did not even give his opinion about the screenshots.
Okay, understood, she didn't respond in a great way to your comments, but your comments weren't exactly wonderful either. I'd just like you to answer one question: Why exactly couldn't you just have given her some good advice instead of posting what you did?


This shouldn't become a flamewar about who said what, who implied what, who misconstrued what, etc.
I don't see any flamewar. Just reasonable discussion between reasonable people.


well. You should make the wad for you and not everybody else.
That's a good point. However, the community is meant for sharing your stuff, be it levels or art or stories or anything else. And while criticism is bound to be there, seeing as how no one's perfect, the least you could do is make it constructive.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:53 #
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Fredrik


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Okay, sorry. I didn't mean to make it sound that harsh and I certainly didn't mean to start a flamewar.

My point still remains though, I could create a better looking room than any of those shown in the screenshots in 5 minutes, and I wouldn't start a thread about it :)

But you can ignore me. Whatever. It's just annoying when something as plain as that (excuse me again for being negative) gets "woah that's 1337":s.

Old Post 11-17-02 22:54 #
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Spike said:


Screenshots are posted for RTC all the time. Are you not expectant of other people's opinions? You have a hell of a lot of people working on it. I think you even asked me at one point.

You can't say that you're making the WAD just for yourself.



Sure it's nice getting comments, but deep down I make wads for me, and only me. That is why I don't release much.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:55 #
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Spike said:
Tarin appears to be biased against GL port maps because they recieve more attention due to eye candy.

Obviously you do not know that I hosted the files for (the old) ZDoomGL until the beginning of this month.


Spike said:
She even apologised [...]

... just to get back to insults in her next post.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:56 #
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Archvile46 said:
That's a good point. However, the community is meant for sharing your stuff, be it levels or art or stories or anything else. And while criticism is bound to be there, seeing as how no one's perfect, the least you could do is make it constructive.


Sometimes destructive criticism is better, sometimes not.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:57 #
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Spike said:
Well, it's mostly redundant now anyway. I'm sat here with a pregnant wife who's crying her eyes out.

What's more, she's just quit the Underworld project. The workload has just doubled.

At any rate, Jay was going about fixing some areas of the map when she read the earlier comments - here's one last shot.



ahhh. don't give up jay! so some people don't appreciate your work, big deal. if you enjoy mapping, then don't let those negative comments get you down. instead, you should use them fuel your desire to map even more. I would like to play the finished underworld project, and would like to see more of yours and spikes levels in the future.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:59 #
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Spike
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Shaviro said:


Sure it's nice getting comments, but deep down I make wads for me, and only me. That is why I don't release much.



I can understand that. The last thing we released was a one-off teaser level (map11).
But the screenshots are posted in the hope for constructive opinion. We like to know what people think - especially veteran mappers - so that we can improve upon it.

Ling has admitted that he sucks at mapping, yet he was the first to offer some comprehensive guidelines for improving upon the existing architecture.

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Old Post 11-17-02 22:59 #
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Kid Airbag
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Fredrik said:
Okay, sorry. I didn't mean to make it sound that harsh and I certainly didn't mean to start a flamewar.

My point still remains though, I could create a better looking room than any of those shown in the screenshots in 5 minutes, and I wouldn't start a thread about it :)

But you can ignore me. Whatever. It's just annoying when something as plain as that (excuse me again for being negative) gets "woah that's 1337":s.

Fredrik, that's cause you've been mapping for forever and have gotten damn good at it. More than damn good at it, in fact. Instead of reacting that way, though, you could help her out so she can start making a room that good in five minutes. That's the one thing I don't get about this whole thing, and have yet to receive an answer to: Why can't you just be constructive and helpful?

And there's no reason to be pissed because spike and jay are receiving encouragement. You've pimped vrack before, and received nothing but positive words about it (except that it won't run on some of our systems :P). People know you're a good mapper. Just because they're giving jay positive comments about her level doesn't mean people won't like yours anymore. Not everyone can design incredible levels like you, Fred.

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Old Post 11-17-02 23:00 #
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Kid Airbag
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Obviously you do not know that I hosted the files for (the old) ZDoomGL until the beginning of this month.
From what you and shaviro have said, it sure seems that you have some sort of animosity towards GL.


Sometimes destructive criticism is better, sometimes not.
Destructive criticism is never better. All it does is make things worse.

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Old Post 11-17-02 23:02 #
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I've heard that stuff I've made is ugly or horrible before. I've gotten insulted for things I do crappily. Many times. What do I do about it? Simple, I ignore it if I disagree. Or improve my work if I agree.

Old Post 11-17-02 23:04 #
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Shaviro said:


what wad?

What what wad?

Fredrik said:


[...]I could create a better looking room than any of those shown in the screenshots in 5 minutes [...]

Oh hush, it takes me 5 minutes to create a rectangle room...It'd take me a week to make a room like the one shown.

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Old Post 11-17-02 23:07 #
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Shaviro
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Archvile46 said:
From what you and shaviro have said, it sure seems that you have some sort of animosity towards GL.

Destructive criticism is never better. All it does is make things worse.



Well it sure helped me back then.

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Old Post 11-17-02 23:07 #
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Kid Airbag
Not really a kid. Not really an airbag. WHAT THE HELL IS IT?!? Who's asking? Are you French? An airbag is a safety device in a car that inflates during a collision and blocks you from smashing your head into the dashboard or steering wheel!


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Fredrik said:
I've heard that stuff I've made is ugly or horrible before. I've gotten insulted for things I do crappily. Many times. What do I do about it? Simple, I ignore it if I disagree. Or improve my work if I agree.
Perhaps that's why you've been so quick to criticize the work of others, then. Not everyone is as secure in what they do as you are. Maybe you should keep that in mind?

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Old Post 11-17-02 23:08 #
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Kid Airbag
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Shaviro said:


Well it sure helped me back then.

Hrm, can you give me an example? I just can't see how destructive criticism could possibly help you more than constructive criticism. Constructive criticism doesn't have to be "sugarcoated," mind you. It can be rather harsh, it just has to be helpful.

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Old Post 11-17-02 23:10 #
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Archvile46 said:
Hrm, can you give me an example? I just can't see how destructive criticism could possibly help you more than constructive criticism. Constructive criticism doesn't have to be "sugarcoated," mind you. It can be rather harsh, it just has to be helpful.


ok. Some people told me how bad it was and gave no constructive criticism at all. I felt like I had to show them what I could really do and improved heavily over little time.

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Old Post 11-17-02 23:13 #
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