[KDiZD] Official Realm667 Section Opened!

The Flange Peddler said:

My problem is, from some of the screens and from some of the (admittadly unfinished) maps that I've played, literally huge chunks of the original levels have been lifted and very little has been changed (bar the addition of a few hundred sectors for the sake of detail)

Perhaps you ought to read some of the earliest posts in this thread, the ones where Lutrov71 said that the maps had been changed too much...

Oh, and the last time the maps were publically available for download was something like three months ago. One hell of a lot has changed since then.

@AgentSpork - As Nick already said: You did just recreations and beyond that, just one single map wads, you don't count in this case so don't feel angry at all!

NiGHTMARE said:

At least they're not all monotonously grey and full of copy 'n' pasted detail *cough*.

I agree. Monotonous gray and copy 'n' pasted detail sucks.

NiGHTMARE said:

Perhaps you ought to read some of the earliest posts in this thread, the ones where Lutrov71 said that the maps had been changed too much...

I said that the maps didn't look like episode 1, but they're not supposed to look like episode 1 as you said, so I was wrong.

NiGHTMARE said:

One hell of a lot has changed since then.

Hmm let's see..still arrogant, still egocentric. Nope, nothing's changed here. Oh you were talking about the maps, my bad.

Use3D said:

Hmm let's see..still arrogant, still egocentric. Nope, nothing's changed here. Oh you were talking about the maps, my bad.

It's not about us, it's about our work, so why did You think it was about us?
:/

:\

If you're getting some bad reactions, might it be that it's being marketed just a bit too aggressively?

Grazza said:

If you're getting some bad reactions, might it be that it's being marketed just a bit too aggressively?

Yes, it was kinda of inevitable in my opinion. If people are going to use phrases like 'the way doom was meant to be' and refer to 'perfecting gameplay' (ie to suggest gameplay will be perfect) then they're kinda digging themselves a hole. All the hype and spoof adverts we've seen over the past couple of weeks only compound the problem. The team of this project now have an awful lot to live up to, and whilst I haven't seen the final project I find it hard to believe that anyone could produce a project of sufficent quality that would validify all this hype given the time scale involved. I realise that the screen shots may not be representative of the final product, but they aren't that amazing. Still, I am looking forward to playing this reguardless of the hype.

The thing I have against this project is not anything with the project to do at all. It's the extreme ammount of arrogance sent out by some of the team members.

This might come as a shock to you but... KDITZ isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. Normally I would look at the screens and think. Hmm might be intresting to play. But you guys are going on about how excellent your work is and how it looks so awesome and so on and so forth. It makes it really hard NOT to tell you this.

Hey, of all the levelshots I've seen from that project it looks mediocre at best.

Now the comeback from you for that remark would be, what do you think looks yadi yadi yada?

And my answer to that would be, The extra detail you've added isn't very good in my humble opinion. It's giving the impression of being forced into the map. Almost like in a movie studio, a lot of faked stuff that is standing around to give the impression of a more detailed world. Just because you used more vertexes and linedefs, doesn't make it look better. The texture work is pretty weak, using textures that doesn't belong in those places you put them and, I could go on forever, bottmline is. In this case I must say less is more.

Nick wrote:
Of course it's not episode 1. If we were going to make episode 1 then we wouldn't have had any work to do, since it's already been done.

Why fix it if it isn't broke?

The intermission screen is pretty cool. But it's not something I am gonna get my panties in a twist over.

Anyway, that's my opinion of this project as it stands now.

This has nothing to do with arrogance, only with self-confidence! Almost every single person of the main-core from the "ZDoom Community Map Project" works on the KDiZD main-core and - as we all know - ZDCMP won an award for one of the best wads in 2004!

And if we - as the core of ZDCMP and KDIZD - have the opinion that KDIZD is by far better then is precedessor, it is just fair to hype it as it is supposed to be.

I am not that unexpirienced concerning DooM-Wads, I played a lot of projects, especially work for ZDoom and so I can compare our work and the work which has been done by other mappers and so on, what we achieved right now with KDIZD - even if it is not finished - it is high over the average of other wads you can get here.

Take a look at the fact that even some persons didn't agree with Scuba's selection of his Action Doom being the best thing in 2004 at all just because he was the author of the "11th Annual Cacoaward", this is weird! If someone else would have written this, no one would care and is - in a special sense - the same thing with KDiZD! If there would be other persons promoting our work and praising our screenshots, no one would mind. Your problem is just, that we also do this kind of stuff which looks for you arrogant (what I really don't understand).

Consider another situation: A young and new mapper posts screenshots about his map, underdetailed with lots of newbie-problems, but he praises it in a fitting kind of way, telling that's it is not all that bad and that you will like it. Because you are a fair community, you would tell him what's wrong and what he might add, what he can do to improve his work, constructive criticism! Why don't we get somerhing like this? We just here, what is bad, why KDiZD sucks and how arrogant we are. What about you kristus? Why don't you exactly tell what is forced into our maps and how we can improve it instead of criticising our person and character!? This doesn't help at all and it won'T change how KDiZD will turn out in the end!
Consider This!

Use3D said:

Hmm let's see..still arrogant, still egocentric. Nope, nothing's changed here. Oh you were talking about the maps, my bad.

The team and our work was attacked by several hardcore whiners for no apparent reason (of course we can guess at the reasons *cough* jealousy *cough*). The team defended itself. Now you're whining about that.

All I can say is to please grow the heck up and get over yourself already. Thank you.

And BTW... everyone who's played more than a dozen Doom add-on levels has a list of level designers they consider to be skilled tucked away in their heads, right?

There's nothing wrong with thinking these other mappers are skilled, respecting their abilities and loving their maps, correct?

So if you were to team up with several of the mappers whose skills you respected and maps you loved to work on a new project, why exactly does that suddenly mean you're not allowed to love their maps?

I'm afraid the very idea that working with people whose work you like should somehow prevents you from telling others of your opinion seems complety non-sensical to me.

Russell_P said
'the way doom was meant to be'

As far as I know that was intended to be a joke, so I guess either your sense of humour or that of whoever came up with the phrase fails it.

'perfecting gameplay' (ie to suggest gameplay will be perfect)

Oh for crying out loud! :( Are you just picking at nits, or are you seriously unaware that when someone talks about 'perfecting' something, what they mean is 'making it the best they possibly can'?

Human beings are incapable of making anything perfect, since we are by definition imperfect creatures.

Kristus said:

The thing I have against this project is not anything with the project to do at all. It's the extreme ammount of arrogance sent out by some of the team members.

What you call arrogance, I call a mixture of joking around, being proud of our work, and defending ourselves against entirely unprovoked attacks by a mixture of attention seekers, ignoramii, and normally respectable people who for reasons unknown (but generally guessable) have decided to jump on the trolling bandwagon.

This might come as a shock to you but... KDITZ isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. Normally I would look at the screens and think. Hmm might be intresting to play. But you guys are going on about how excellent your work is and how it looks so awesome and so on and so forth. It makes it really hard NOT to tell you this.

If we say that the maps are "the greatest thing sinced slice bread", then that means we, a team consisting of mappers who've released numerous previous levels that are well liked by the Doom community, think the levels are the greatest thing sinced slicest bread.

If you wish to disagree with the opinions of several people who're responsible for creating wads that are well liked by the rest of the community and have even appeared in a few "best wads" and "favourite level designers" lists, then that's your decision.

Hey, of all the levelshots I've seen from that project it looks mediocre at best.

As mentioned in the previous couple of paragraphs, the team members are capable of creating non-mediocre maps, so why would they settle for creating new maps that are mediocre? Answer: they wouldn't, so clearly the team does not think the maps are mediocre.

You are entitled to your opinion that the maps look mediocre, but quite clearly the team does not. In fact, personally I think many of the Nimrod maps don't look particularly great (especially the first one), but fortunately the gameplay usually makes up for it.

I also didn't complain about Nimrod's looks or the hype for Nimrod (especially not without even playing the finish product), let alone personally attack the character of the team members... despite the fact the project didn't quite live up to what it had been advertised as.

Neither did I complain about the author's 'arrogance' regarding the project, e.g. "Ni'mRoD... will feature alot of new monsters aswell as weapons and other really cool stuff I think are missing in most megawads released".

Why fix it if it isn't broke?

No-one ever claimed we were trying to 'fix' E1 ("the way it was meant to be" wasn't my idea, but I'm pretty sure it was intended as a joke anyway). Besides, by that logic all the original levels are absolutely fine, so why should anyone ever bother making any new levels when there originals are already there for everyone to play, over and over and over and over and over ad nauseam?

I sense mutual assumptions of bad faith.

Saying "This is knee deep in the dead the way it was meant to be" is incredibly arrogant. It's not self confidence it's arrogance. If you said, I really think this project is awesome and will be something out of the ordinary, THAT'S showing self-confidence in your work. But that comment that this thing should be what E1 was meant to be is just plain arrogant to assume you even have the knowledge of what it was meant to be. And this "meant to be", who are the person at ID that you define this by? Not Tom Hall, that's for sure. John Carmack, mr "Simlicity is law"? John Romero? Who agree'd with Carmack that Doom should be kept simple?
Who at ID thought, "Dammit this has not nearly enough detail!"?

As for this "We're keeping it hyped so people won't forget about it cause it's crap." (ok, that's not an exact quote and I exagerated it a bit), to be fair this was the exact quote "7. We do a lot of hype to keep you interested".
This thing you're doing is not creating hype, it's creating hate. Ok, strong choice of words but the point of my meaning should be clear enough. Hype by showing off screenshots and all that, fine have fun. But noone get's excited to play it because you say it will be better than anything they have ever made cause you are so much better than everyone else.

I thought I gave you a helping hand in finding out what I and apparently a lot of other people think was wrong with your screenshots (judging from other posts in this very thread). If you want me to hold your hand around every sidedef in the wad and tell you how it is in my opinion bad and cheap then you aren't the master leveldesigner you make yourself out to be.

Remember Daikatana?

Well spoken, Nick!

NiGHTMARE said:

If you wish to disagree with the opinions of several people who're responsible for creating wads that are well liked by the rest of the community and have even appeared in a few "best wads" and "favourite level designers" lists, then that's your decision.

Since people already know how great you and your WADs are, why do you need to advertise at all?

@kristus - As Nightmare already pointed out: This was not as serious meant as it maybe looked like! This is some kind of advertisement joke, we all know out of sever tv-spots or slogans, so don't use that one lonely sentence as hanger for all our guiltiness! This is ridicolous, it really is because it seems to be your lonely argument!

Concerning the hype thing: The question is not, if we are better than everyone else and the question isn't, if our wad is by far better then everyone else's work! And why? Because you and I already know the answer to this question because you (at last I think so) and I know the quite small range of quality maps! This may also sound to you very arrogant as it does to everyone else who doesn't like any single part of KDiZD - also teammatewise - but considering the weekly releases in the /newstuff folder, we are over the average of doom-releases with KDiZD and we are aware of this fact, also considering the comments on our previous released work and so on - as a clear result - it isn't that hard to think that our work is by far better then the work of some other mappers!

Remember Doom Rampage? See the difference!

Fredrik said:

Since people already know how great you and your WADs are, why do you need to advertise at all?

I never felt the need to advertise, nor did I create any adverts (well, besides a certain "poster" on the ZDoom forums that was intended entirely as a joke).

BTW, could you explain why you never directed that exact question at Scuba Steve? Or Shaviro? Or indeed any experienced level designer who's ever posted screenshots over at WIP?

Fredrik said:

Since people already know how great you and your WADs are, why do you need to advertise at all?

Since people already knew how great Scuba and his sprite-work has already been, why did he need to advertise at all?
...this makes no sense because there is nothing bad about some advertisement! Everyone advertises, even by at least adding screenshots to places, where others can few them! Why do you add screenshots from your maps to your homepage (or at last did, don't know if there is still a hp from you) when everyone already knew after Vrack 1 how great you and your WADs are?

*sigh*

I really don't know what you guys expected as a result of all the hype. Too much hype can be a bad thing and this is proving to be a perfect example.

Personally, if you've got so much confidence in your work why do you feel the need to write such lengthy essays leaping to defend against any comment of a less than positive nature that's made. I would have thought the best thing to do was just sit back and wait for people to eat their words on release (assuming your project is really that good).

Anyway, quit complaining. All this feedback is only helping to promote more interest around your project, which is what you want. Isn't it?

Fredrik said:

Since people already know how great you and your WADs are, why do you need to advertise at all?

Good point.

If someone goes into something thinking that they'll hate it, then they *will* hate it. 99% guaranteed.

And IMHO Fredrik's point isn't as good as my point, re: the fact Fredrik never made that point to anyone else who's ever advertised their Doom (2) add-on.

I really don't want to get into an arguement here. As I've said, I'm looking forward to the project, I just have my reservations about the hype. However, simply posting a couple of screen shots with a note saying here's what I'm working on, it'll be finished in a couple of weeks (which is the form most announcements take) is completely different to the route you've taken.

NiGHTMARE said:

The team and our work was attacked by several hardcore whiners for no apparent reason (of course we can guess at the reasons *cough* jealousy *cough*). The team defended itself. Now you're whining about that.

I can't answer for others, but my motifs for this is not jealosy

If we say that the maps are "the greatest thing sinced slice bread", then that means we, a team consisting of mappers who've released numerous previous levels that are well liked by the Doom community, think the levels are the greatest thing sinced slicest bread.

You sure come off extremely arrogant for just joking around etc.

If you wish to disagree with the opinions of several people who're responsible for creating wads that are well liked by the rest of the community and have even appeared in a few "best wads" and "favourite level designers" lists, then that's your decision.

Yadi yadi yada. I don't wish to disagree with anyone, But I do. and for some reason I decided to voice my opinion. Now because I don't agree with these amazingly respected and favorized mappers etc my opinion is that of a jealous bandwagon troller. I'm impressed, you must know me better than anyone of my split-personalities do.

Many of the team have released previous maps that are well thought of by many other members of the Doom community, so clearly these previous maps are not mediocre.

Yes, yes, you didn't fail to mention this 2 times already. Just because I say these shots you present are mediocre. Doesn't mean I find other wads mediocre. I haven't said anything about your previous wads, not Tormentors or Risen's or NMN's either. Risen is a friend of mine, I love his Twice Risen PC, and I really enjoyed Tormentors Torment and Torture 2 map. As for you I loved Darkening E2 and RTC-3057, I played Execution DM several times and so on and so on, This doesn't mean I have to like everything you do. And the fact that you have made good things before doesn't mean you can't make bad things now. If all people do in a team is tell eachotehr how much they rule, instead of taking a step back and reviewing eachother and their own shit, then weird things can happen. Again I say. Remember Daikatana?

If these team members are capable of creating non-mediocre maps, why would they settle for creating new maps that are mediocre? They wouldn't, so clearly the team does not think the maps are mediocre.

I don't know, you tell me. I am not on the team, I don't know what is going on behind your "doors".

You are entitled to your opinion that the maps look mediocre, but quite clearly we do not. In fact, personally I think many of the Nimrod maps don't look particularly great (especially the first one), but fortunately the gameplay usually makes up for it.

Actually, you don't think I am. Tormentor said that anyone not agreeing eitehr had some eyesight faliure or "other reasons" for thinking other than you guys, and you labled everyone who disagreed as jealous and trollers.

I also didn't complain about the hype for Nimrod, let alone attack the character of the team members... despite the fact the project didn't quite live up to what it had been advertised as. Neither did I complain about the author's 'arrogance' regarding the project (e.g. "Ni'mRoD... will feature alot of new monsters aswell as weapons and other really cool stuff I think are missing in most megawads released").

What part of that sentance didn't Nimrod live up to? It had a lot of new monsters and weapons. Well, some atleast (depends on how much you refer to as a lot). As many as I felt it needed. I mainly exclaimed that I whished for more megawads to have new monsters and such crap in them. Granted that I was (atleast) 6 years younger when I started Nimrod and by the time much work had been done .. bleh nevermind. it's irrelevant. My point is, Nimrod isn't a very popular wad by any means, some for the reason it use Legacy and some for the reason it is made. I really liked Nimrod, I think I managed to do what i wanted with it, and more. When I started it it was just going to be a 6 level wad to occupy my time for a few months. But the wad ended up taking 4 years to make as I kept adding new things, and it obviously show in it, I made almost all maps myself. Only one map is completely w/o my work and that's Kurt Keslers map.

I may not be a very respected or popular leveldesigner. But I still am entitled to an opinion. Then it's up for each person to decided if they agree with me or not.

No-one ever claimed we were trying to 'fix' E1 ("the way it was meant to be" wasn't my idea, but I'm pretty sure it was intended as a joke anyway). Besides, by that logic all the original levels are absolutely fine, so why should anyone ever bother making any new levels when there originals are already there for everyone to play, over and over and over and over and over ad nauseam?

Newsflash. People lika making levels. There's also, for your information a lot of people who still play the E1 maps over and over and over. I am one of them. Just because they are so incredibly good.

Everyone has a list of mappers they consider to be skilled tucked away in their heads, right?

Right

There's nothing wrong with thinking these other mappers are skilled, respecting their abilities and loving their maps, correct?

Correct.

So if you were to team up with several of those mappers whose skills you respected and maps you loved to work on a new project, why exactly does that suddenly mean you're not allowed to love their maps?

You are free to love their dog for all I care. I just wish you would be a bit more receptive to the fact that this is maybe not as cool as you think it is.
Everyone who doesn't agree about your redesigns for these maps doesn't necessarily hold a thorn in the side for the team or a specific person or are jealous. For instance, if I were to say. Ikka Keränen is a very technically skilled mapper, but fails on gameplay. Would you say I am jealous of Iikka then? Or that I don't agree with iikka on what good gameplay is?

I didn't intend to insult anyone in the KDIZD team, I just got tired of you ranting on about how it was awesome and the screenshots were immensly better than the original areas, and when people said "Nah" you replied with saying, You jealous, You troller, You don't realize that they're not done. The last one basicly saying "You are right, it doesn't look that awesome as I just proclaimed it as, but it will be." Which makes the whole stance indecisive.

EDIT: about the ads. I've already said I loved the ads, I thought the idea Scuba had with Ashun Doom was sweet. The ads you posted were fun they were intresting. But that's the only part that came across as a joke to me, anything else you written in WIP and in forums have all come across as a whole other deal.

Geeze, guys, It's just a Doom mod.

Risen: You're right. I dunno what came over me. I guess I should have gone to bed when I noticed that I felt like sharing my opinion extra much. (honest, no sarcasm intended)

NiGHTMARE said:

BTW, could you explain why you never directed that exact question at Scuba Steve? Or Shaviro? Or indeed any experienced level designer who's ever posted screenshots over at WIP?

Regarding Shaviro, I don't consider him an experienced level designer. In any case, I have complained about the RTC-3057 advertising, and I'm surprised you haven't noticed it. Regarding WIP, I don't visit the site, so I don't know who they are. As for Scuba Steve... come on, how could you complain about a guy like Scuba Steve?

Speaking more generally, the reason I haven't made the point earlier is that it hasn't occurred to me. But I'll gladly apply it retroactively.

Tormentor667 said:

Why do you add screenshots from your maps to your homepage (or at last did, don't know if there is still a hp from you) when everyone already knew after Vrack 1 how great you and your WADs are?

Nick claimed people already know how great his WADs are. I am not making the claim that people think my WADs are great. Though, looking back, I do think my advertising for Vrack 2 was silly. That's why I didn't advertise Vrack 3 in the last year (or so) before its release, and refrain from advertising anything I'm currently working on.

Anyway, why do both you and Nick feel such a strong need to answer criticism by comparing with the records of those who criticize you? I can defend myself, but the thing that's relevant here is your advertising, and its qualities and problems do not depend on whatever I might have done in the past.

did someone mention advertising?.....

NiGHTMARE first said:

The team and our work was attacked by several hardcore whiners for no apparent reason (of course we can guess at the reasons *cough* jealousy *cough*).

NiGHTMARE said:

In fact, personally I think many of the Nimrod maps don't look particularly great (especially the first one), but fortunately the gameplay usually makes up for it.

Hahaha thanks for the laugh Nicky, but instead of giving your opinion of Nimrod any validity I'm just going to chalk it up to the fact that you're obviously jealous of Kristus, because when people offer an opinion different than mine that I don't understand I must make really stupid, stupid assumptions.

kristus said:

I can't answer for others, but my motifs for this is not jealosy

I said the "hardcore whiners" were jealous, I didn't say everyone who disliked KDIZD was a hardcore whiner. If you want to lump yourself in that category that's your decision, not mine ;).

You sure come off extremely arrogant for just joking around etc.

Why exactly do you consider it acceptable to insult someone else's work, whilst being proud of your own work is some major criminal offence?

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with that idea.

Yadi yadi yada. I don't wish to disagree with anyone, But I do. and for some reason I decided to voice my opinion. Now because I don't agree with these amazingly respected and favorized mappers etc my opinion is that of a jealous bandwagon troller. I'm impressed, you must know me better than anyone of my split-personalities do.

I never said you personally were jealous. But guilty minds and all that...

If all people do in a team is tell eachotehr how much they rule, instead of taking a step back and reviewing eachother and their own shit, then weird things can happen. Again I say. Remember Daikatana?

There is a big difference between constantly singing someone else's praises and respecting their ability.

Remember any good game that's ever been made? Chances are it wouln't be good if the people who made it didn't respect one another and work together as a team, working around each other's personal strengths and weaknesses.

I don't know, you tell me. I am not on the team, I don't know what is going on behind your "doors".

Until recently, there were no "doors" - almost all inter-team communication has been in a publically viewable thread on a forum which regularly recieves a reasonably large number of visitors.

Actually, you don't think I am. Tormentor said that anyone not agreeing eitehr had some eyesight faliure or "other reasons" for thinking other than you guys, and you labled everyone who disagreed as jealous and trollers.

No I certainly did not - I said they were either (meaning one of the options available, not all of them) "attention seeksers", "ignoramii", or "normally respectable who for reasons unknown (but generally guessable) have decided to jump on the trolling bandwagon".

Every single normally respectable person who's criticized ZDoom has ended up trolling to some extent, though it's far more minor in some cases than others. What cannot be argued is that there's far more "This sucks! You suck!" than there is "I don't like this because..."

What part of that sentance didn't Nimrod live up to?

I said Nimrod didn't live up to the hype, the sentence was in regards to something else. What I said about the sentence is that it comes across as rather arrogant, as if you thought you'd come up with some incredible, amazing, revolutionary idea that no-one has ever thought of before, but should be immediately added to every other project.

I may not be a very respected or popular leveldesigner. But I still am entitled to an opinion. Then it's up for each person to decided if they agree with me or not.

I never claimed you weren't entitled to your opinion. In fact, I specifically stated that you were.

My biggest problem was that you seemed to be ignoring the opinions of others, i.e. the people who are actually making KDIZD!

Newsflash. People lika making levels. There's also, for your information a lot of people who still play the E1 maps over and over and over. I am one of them. Just because they are so incredibly good.

And clearly a bunch of other people thought it would be an interesting experiment/E1 would be even cooler/E1 would stop being terrible/whatever if they "updated it" with the features of a modern port, their own style of mapping, more detail, new textures, monsters, etc.

Everyone is, after all, different.

You are free to love their dog for all I care. I just wish you would be a bit more receptive to the fact that this is maybe not as cool as you think it is.

Hmm. So you're saying our opinions are wrong, after all that fuss about how important your own opinion is? Sorry, but opinions can't be wrong.

Everyone who doesn't agree about your redesigns for these maps doesn't necessarily hold a thorn in the side for the team or a specific person or are jealous.

You're putting words in my mouth. It's your assertion that you're included in the "hardcore whiner" category, not mine.

I didn't intend to insult anyone in the KDIZD team, I just got tired of you ranting on about how it was awesome and the screenshots were immensly better than the original areas, and when people said "Nah" you replied with saying, You jealous, You troller, You don't realize that they're not done.

Jealousy: It's perfectly obvious to even a casual observer that certain people are acting the way they are purely out of spite and jealousy. Please note with care that I use the phrase 'certain people', not 'everyone who hates KDIZD'.

Trolling: If someone insults someone else's work in an unprofessional and abusive manner (as the vast majority of anti-KDIZDers have done - but please note the phrase 'vast majority of' rather than 'every single'), they're trolling. If someone's trolling, it's perfectly acceptable to mention that fact.

If those KDIZD dislikers who didn't deliberately set out toll think we've treated them in an unreasonable fashion, perhaps they ought to question why we're doing so. Could it, oh I dunno, be cause they were acting in an unreasonable fashion first?

If you (and by 'you' I'm referring to everyone reading this, rather than Kristus specifically) are going to criticize someone else's hard work, 1) don't do it in a downright insulting and disrespectful manner, and 2) try to point out why you don't like it. If a person doesn't know why others don't like his work, chances are he'll never improve.

(Yes I realize I just critized Nimrod without bothering to explain why, but that was to illustrate the point.)

It's not done: So you're saying if someone criticizes an unfinished work, it is unacceptable to point out it's unfinished state? Sorry, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Use3D said:

Hahaha thanks for the laugh Nicky, but instead of giving your opinion of Nimrod any validity I'm just going to chalk it up to the fact that you're obviously jealous of Kristus, because when people offer an opinion different than mine that I don't understand I must make really stupid, stupid assumptions.

Yet another person who's lumped themselves in the "hardcore whiners" category without me saying anything of the sort. You guys really are digging your own graves!

As for me, I wasn't whining about Nimrod, exactly the opposite - I was pointing out I could have complained about something I didn't like, but at the time I chose not to.

Nick must be the person in the community who is most skilled at whining about others' whining.