MD2 Models

Hi.

Hmm, you know what I don't understand is why people don't start making more models replacing weapons. I mean, JDoom has awesome model supprot, but not too many people take advantage of this. Sure, sprites are ok, but models take advantage of dynamic lighting and smoother actions. The only problem is that they take light years to create, but this will just make the creators take more time balancing it, making it look great etc. And also, they can take advantage of the awesome looking particles that JDoom supports. Just my little opion.

Now, lets hear yours!

evilhomerdoomer said:

I mean, JDoom has awesome model supprot

It's support Md2 models right? I wouldn't go as far as to call MD2 models awesome. More like... shitty. And no, I am not talking about the models that's been made, I am talking about the format md2, it's shit. It was good back in the days of q2, but those days are long gone.

The only problem is that they take light years to create

This is totally up to the skill of the modeler, most md2 models can be made in less than a day. More complex models like monsters, can take a week. But that's for those who are more comfortable with the tools of course, if you really know what you're doing, you should be able to make a monster model with animations and all in less than a day.

but this will just make the creators take more time balancing it, making it look great etc.

Au contrare or some french shit like that. The more time it takes to make something for a person, the more careless that person usually is because of the imposing factor of the work getting tedious.

And also, they can take advantage of the awesome looking particles that JDoom supports. Just my little opion.

Particles schmarticles, most engines have very nice particle support. Even Zdoom have nice support now with the decorate lumps and all that schnazz.

I believe Doomsday also supports MD3s.

I am talking about the format md2, it's shit. It was good back in the days of q2, but those days are long gone.

A bad workman always blames his tools. You'd be surprised how good you can make MD2 format models look. True it takes more skill to do it though. I'm not saying I'm the formats biggest fan though.

you should be able to make a monster model with animations and all in less than a day.

Oh really? So how come professional game artists usually spend at least 2-3 days modelling, 1-2 days animating, and 2 days skinning? Character models completed in under a day will always turn out badly unless you are some sort of god (or have simply rehashed an older model or working with a very low poly count/texture res)

The more time it takes to make something for a person, the more careless that person usually is because of the imposing factor of the work getting tedious.

Maybe for you but not everyone works like that.

Particles schmarticles, most engines have very nice particle support. Even Zdoom have nice support now with the decorate lumps and all that schnazz.

Sorry but your totally wrong. Have you even SEEN what can be done with particles in other engines? Zdoom's partical support is pitiful.

I believe Doomsday also supports MD3s.

Not yet unfortunetly.

Kritus Don’t understands how thinks works, Let me see a model you make in one day, and yes then it looks like shit, but that is not the MD2 format that cause it.

Greetings.

Of course you can make nice models with Md2, but the fact remains, Md2 is a shitty format. And since you are rather familiar with it I assume you know why.

Well, I don't know any proffessional artists. But I know that when I still worked with 3d studio I could make a full human model in about a day, and I wasn't even very good.

EDIT: and compared to making sprites it takes a lot less time than to make a model out of clay/3d/drawing it and then fixing it up in different poses etc.

Oh come on, you telling me that if you have to work on something a lot longer you get more careful than you would if you could do it in 10 minutes?

I know what I've seen been done in Zdoom, while the conventional particle system is rather dull, the decorate features add for some spectacular effects. Remember that particles stopped being considered as only 1 pixel sprites long ago.

kristus said:

Of course you can make nice models with Md2, but the fact remains, Md2 is a shitty format. And since you are rather familiar with it I assume you know why.

Well, I don't know any proffessional artists. But I know that when I still worked with 3d studio I could make a full human model in about a day, and I wasn't even very good.

MD2 has it limits, but that is for me not the reason to call it shitty. the technology goes on, in a few year you don’t have to model any more, you can do it with a cube and a 3D skin.

Was the model also skinned, and with a bone structure for animating ?
The shape only does not make a model.

Greetings

Medeling skinning and animating is probably 10 times faster than drawing the frames individually.

Meh, I prefer sprites. I don't mind about the dynamic ligths over the poligons. I'd love to see certain model based games converted into sprites.
Imagine how fun should be Hexen II converted into sprites from scratch (not screenshots of the models), same with all the Quake series, and many other games, including DOOM 3.

Sure, the latest models (from Quake 3 so far) look really good, but sprites have something special that can't be equaled, in my opinion, of course.

Vegeta said:

Meh, I prefer sprites. I don't mind about the dynamic ligths over the poligons. I'd love to see certain model based games converted into sprites.
Imagine how fun should be Hexen II converted into sprites from scratch (not screenshots of the models), same with all the Quake series, and many other games, including DOOM 3.

Sure, the latest models (from Quake 3 so far) look really good, but sprites have something special that can't be equaled, in my opinion, of course.

you fooling around.

I think it's the mixing and matching that bothers me. Either one or the other, but not both please. If you're making a mod, don't make stuff out of models and also some out of sprites. Pick one or the other. If DaniJ finishes making everything in doom into a model, that would help alot since the last doom model pack I played was crap.

Vegeta said:

Meh, I prefer sprites. I don't mind about the dynamic ligths over the poligons. I'd love to see certain model based games converted into sprites.
Imagine how fun should be Hexen II converted into sprites from scratch (not screenshots of the models), same with all the Quake series, and many other games, including DOOM 3.

Sure, the latest models (from Quake 3 so far) look really good, but sprites have something special that can't be equaled, in my opinion, of course.

Just because these older models pretty much suck wouldn't make sprite versions of them look better.

On the other hand though I haven't seen a single model of a Doom monster I liked. They all are more like rough approximations but somehow they are not the real deal.

In response to the original question there are several reasons why there aren't more weapon models:

1. A large part of Doom's users still play it because they enjoy playing this old game as it was designed 12 years ago (higher resolutions nonwithstanding - that was merely a technical limitation back then.)

2. There aren't that many modellers and I'm quite certain that most of them are more interested in developing for more modern games.

3. There's only a few source ports which support models so in order for someone to create these things this person must have an interest in these particular source ports and be willing that a significant part of the community won't be interested in his or her creations.

4. As you said, it's a lot more work than ripping some graphics from somewhere else and modify them in some way. ;)

sitters said:

Was the model also skinned, and with a bone structure for animating ?
The shape only does not make a model.

Yes, it was skinned and IK jointed. I always made that all as I went along. But it was skinned in 3d studio as at that time I didn't do Md2 modeling, I was just making high poly models for a Myst like game I was working on. But for several reasons it was never realised. And no, I don't have those models anymore, I've had my computer formatted a bunch of times since then, and I didn't really care to backup stuff I didn't have any use for. But in retrospect I wish I had, cause the last model I made for it actually was rather good considering how much I sucked back then. (y2000) However, that model wasn't made in a day, cause I wasn't making any Md2 mode, and I was never any modeling master and I was trying new methods with it. Also, I never said that people who are very skilled actually made models in a day, just that they COULD do it. I remember reading an interview with a person modeling for a Doom mod for Q3, he said the skinning too 4 hours and the modeling took 7 hours or something.

Personally, my md2 modeling career was rather breif. The minute I really learned what there was to learn about the format, I got sick of it.

A box and a 3d skin? So how would this 3d skin work? I assume it would use a model. Or would it be voxels?

Medeling skinning and animating is probably 10 times faster than drawing the frames individually

Theres not much difference IMO. They are two very different skill sets and to achieve anything decent in either requires a lot of work.

Who made what and how long it took is completely irelevant. It takes time to do good work. Yeah sure anyone can make anything in a day but it probably doesn't do it's job as well as it should or just looks like crap.

If DaniJ finishes making everything in doom into a model, that would help alot since the last doom model pack I played was crap.

I just wish I had more time to work on 1.1. The quality level on the completed stuff is lightyears beyond the current 1.0 version.

Sure, the latest models (from Quake 3 so far) look really good, but sprites have something special that can't be equaled, in my opinion, of course.

Which models are you refering to?

Remember that particles stopped being considered as only 1 pixel sprites long ago.

What is your point? In Doomsday you have, points, lines, texture and models, all of which can be used as particles.

I wasn't comparing to the Doomsday, I was just pointing out that those particle fountains everyone hates isn't all that Zdoom can do. If you look at the afrit in the Monster pack, you'll see the things that fly around him. They look really sweet, even if it's just sprites that are layered on top of eachother.

even if it's just sprites that are layered on top of eachother.

I see.

DaniJ said:

Theres not much difference IMO. They are two very different skill sets and to achieve anything decent in either requires a lot of work.

Bologna. You're a phenomenal Modeler and texture artist, and I'm just a decent artist. I'll wager anything you can put together a high quality monster for the JDoom resource Pack far faster than I could draw 62 high quality individual frames of animation for a new monster.

There's no shame, modelling is just more productive than hand work for gaming characters.

And MD2's don't suck...

Remember Quake 2? Tell me what was wrong with those models? Quake 2 ran qiuckly like hell, the models were perfectly optimised, texturing? Hell, MD2 was first to allow you use different textures for different states (health here) of the entity, not to mention that Quake 2 models (and these are only default ones, so there are probably a lots of them done better in the same format), were incredibly flexible and fluent. And had hundreds of frames for each object.

Shit!

This is a touchy subject, lots of blood flying. I didn't want to have a port argument, but just an opinion of models. Like DaniJ says, aswell as Ellmo, MD2's don't have to suck, its what you do with em. I haven't tried modelling, maby I should, but look at abbs weapons pack. Sweet. The plasma is awesome, and Dani's rocket launcher is better than most retail games models. Sure, sprites are good for what they are, allthough, I'm glad that Risen 3D and JDoom have modles though. Sprites don't tend to suit them. In ZDoom or skulltag however, models just wouldn't work. I play with both sprites and modles depending on which port I'm using.

Oh yeah, Dani, which is a good program to create models with? I wouldn't mind learning.

Thx guys for an interesting read. Heh

evilhomerdoomer said:

which is a good program to create models with?

And with models you can create a real 3D environment, What is not possible with sprites.

The programs I use are

Wings 3D for modeling and UV ( free)
Gmax for modelling ( free)
Milkshape 3D for conversion ( shareware )
Mdl for conversion to doomday ( free)
Tattoo for shading or painting ( free)
Photoshop CS skinning and textures ( commercial )

Greetings.

evilhomerdoomer said:

I mean, JDoom has awesome model supprot, but not too many people take advantage of this.

Because most people map for other ports, vanilla or to BOOM-standard (Which JDoom refuses to support).

Besides, good gameplay > 3D models.

TheDarkArchon said:

Because most people map for other ports, vanilla or to BOOM-standard (Which JDoom refuses to support).

Besides, good gameplay > 3D models.

This is why I use Risen 3D. Much faster rendering and fully BOOM compatible. IMO, its great to make maps with. It makes use of 3D floors, ambient sounds, dynamic lighting. People should make more maps for it.

Depending on how many frames you need to do Is what really matters with speed.
for a small amount of frames, sprites would be quicker.

evilhomerdoomer said:

which is a good program to create models with?

Blender3d Is what I'm using right now. It's free, and there is a free script that exports/imports models into md2 format.
And It Is not limited like gmax is.

Hmm, Thanks both sitters and KuriKai!