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BoldEnglishman
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AgentSpork said:
Esselfortium told me to post in this thread, so I did. Another job well done, Spork old bean. Now to retire to the spork-cave.


ATTENTION EVERYONE! The Spork has left the building! Let's all continue facepalming ourselves.

I would of said something in reply to Naan and SuperSlammer, but enough people are replying as it is.

Old Post 01-14-08 17:37 #
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Nick Perrin
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(If this is an old topic, I AM NOT THE BUMPER)

So now that it's been established that this project is serious, can someone please tell what the point is? Seems like a pretty horrible waste of time to me. People will complain if you try to port, say, Duke Nukem 3d to Doom, when you can just play the actual game... but a Doom-to-Doom conversion, by which the source content is downgraded and that downgrading is actually part of the project's goal?

So yeah... someone tell me, what's the point of this?

Old Post 01-14-08 18:06 #
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DooMAD
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To prove that gameplay is more important than "OMG MOAR SEKTORS PLZ" and all the other technical things KDiZD focused on instead of making it fun to play.

Old Post 01-14-08 18:56 #
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myk
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Nick Perrin said:
So yeah... someone tell me, what's the point of this?
To see how well a barebones version of KZiZD will work out, much like KDiZD was made to see how a modern feature filled version of KDITD worked out. There's irony in it, of course, and also experimentation, using the standard Doom format to its fullest extent to achieve the remake. Besides, the wad should be fun to play if all works out.

Old Post 01-14-08 19:07 #
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Liberation
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I think its a great idea and look forward to seeing what is acomplished.

Old Post 01-14-08 19:29 #
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zap610
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Nick Perrin said:
seems like a pretty horrible waste of time to me


Yeah you're right. (Sorry Enjay for this) It must be a downgrade because it has no SLOPES and LENSE FLARES. Gameplay means nothing to fanboys like you, so that can never get upgraded, all that matters is ZDOOM FEATURES. What is your goal?


Idiot...

Old Post 01-14-08 19:43 #
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esselfortium
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To be fair, there's a lot of focus on technical aspects with this, too. Getting something that closely resembles KDiZD to work in vanilla Doom is no easy task, you know :p

Mainly I'm interested in doing it for that technical aspect, just to see how well it can be done. It's not intended as an insult to the original team, and I hope it isn't taken that way.

With that said, though, the gameplay will be undergoing some major changes.

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Old Post 01-14-08 19:53 #
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Enjay
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myk said:
To see how well a barebones version of KZiZD will work out, much like KDiZD was made to see how a modern feature filled version of KDITD worked out. There's irony in it, of course, and also experimentation, using the standard Doom format to its fullest extent to achieve the remake. Besides, the wad should be fun to play if all works out.

That sounds like a pretty neat summing up of it.

Old Post 01-14-08 20:06 #
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Liberation
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zap610 said:


Yeah you're right. (Sorry Enjay for this) It must be a downgrade because it has no SLOPES and LENSE FLARES. Gameplay means nothing to fanboys like you, so that can never get upgraded, all that matters is ZDOOM FEATURES. What is your goal?


Idiot...



Thats a bit harsh considering Nick dosen't use zdoom he's an Edge man and everyones entitled to there own view.

Old Post 01-14-08 20:09 #
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esselfortium
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Liberation said:


Thats a bit harsh considering Nick dosen't use zdoom he's an Edge man and everyones entitled to there on view.



I agree. I think zap was attempting to parody SuperSlammer's posts from earlier on, what with the "idiot..." ending and all, but still. I know not everyone understands the purpose of this, and that's okay. :p

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Old Post 01-14-08 20:11 #
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printz
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zap610 said:
It must be a downgrade because it has no SLOPES and LENSE FLARES.
It is a downgrade because Doom.exe is mostly less than ZDoom.exe (but it keeps whatever engine part was removed by ZDoom for optimization). Let alone standard DEHs vs Decorate. Slopes suck, good riddance.

I'm not going to trash any more this project :( though, because I don't want to make enemies for nothing.

You'll surely be limited by Dehacked, in the end. Will I be a fool?

I also hope the KDiZD haters involved here (probably zap610) will do something good with this.

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Old Post 01-14-08 20:47 #
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Craigs
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I'm really looking forward to it, mainly to see just how it will turn out. There is no doubt in my mind that this will turn out good. You can make some pretty impressive stuff for vanilla doom. Just take a look at Suspended in Dusk and Alien Vendetta.

Old Post 01-14-08 21:02 #
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zap610
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Liberation said:


Thats a bit harsh considering Nick dosen't use zdoom he's an Edge man and everyones entitled to there own view.



True, but he was out of line to call this whole project a "horrible waste of time". Doesn't matter what engine you work on, that was just obnoxious. But like everyone is saying, enough about this, onto progress! :P

Old Post 01-14-08 21:23 #
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John Smith
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Nick Perrin said:
So now that it's been established that this project is serious, can someone please tell what the point is? Seems like a pretty horrible waste of time to me.


You are posting on an internet forum about a 14 year old game. When you started posting on this forum you relinquished your right to call anything a waste of time.

Also I'm pretty sure essel started it so he could hate exe and love zdoom more, what with all the excellent and time consuming dehacked work hes doing (and not to mention the maps themselves, the man is a genius).

Old Post 01-14-08 21:29 #
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Craigs
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So now that it's been established that this project is serious, can someone please tell what the point is? Seems like a pretty horrible waste of time to me.


For fun. Same reason a lot of people here make wads to begin with.

Old Post 01-14-08 21:32 #
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JohnnyRancid
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Doom 2 Hell on Earth? why?

Old Post 01-14-08 21:49 #
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esselfortium
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John Smith said:
Also I'm pretty sure essel started it so he could hate exe and love zdoom more, what with all the excellent and time consuming dehacked work hes doing (and not to mention the maps themselves, the man is a genius).

Hahaha, oh jeez. I'm flattered. :p

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Old Post 01-14-08 22:15 #
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Enjay
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JohnnyRancid said:
Doom 2 Hell on Earth? why?

Good question. ;)

Old Post 01-14-08 22:40 #
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Craigs
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Enjay said:

Good question. ;)



Might actually be a bit easier. You'd have a few more monsters and objects to work with when it comes to dehacked and the super shotgun would already be implemented.

Old Post 01-14-08 23:28 #
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esselfortium
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Craigs said:


Might actually be a bit easier. You'd have a few more monsters and objects to work with when it comes to dehacked and the super shotgun would already be implemented.


This actually is for Doom 2, for all of those reasons and a couple others. I was later informed that most of the things I'm using Doom 2 for can actually be done with doom.exe 1.9, but there are some remaining differences (using a different sky on the secret map, for example) and also the fact that I'd have to start from scratch with the texture wad.

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Old Post 01-14-08 23:31 #
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Patrick Pineda
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this looks like a fine project, are you also gunna go for a mordeth award with this one too?

Old Post 01-14-08 23:45 #
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esselfortium
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Janitor said:
this looks like a fine project, are you also gunna go for a mordeth award with this one too?

I sure hope not :(

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Old Post 01-15-08 00:37 #
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GreyGhost
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When I first posted to this thread I thought it was a running joke.

<slap=forehead repeat> Looks like I was wrong :( </slap>

I'd like to see what KDiZD looks and plays like when translated to a vanilla engine. Best of luck with the project. In the meantime I'll go back to wrestling with a KDX script for Chocolate Doom.

Old Post 01-15-08 03:48 #
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myk
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esselfortium said:
This actually is for Doom 2, for all of those reasons and a couple others. I was later informed that most of the things I'm using Doom 2 for can actually be done with doom.exe 1.9, but there are some remaining differences (using a different sky on the secret map, for example) and also the fact that I'd have to start from scratch with the texture wad.
Not sure if you're using all of DOOM II's, but you'd also lose a weapon slot, as in Doom you can't switch to the SSG.

Old Post 01-15-08 05:52 #
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esselfortium
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myk said:
Not sure if you're using all of DOOM II's, but you'd also lose a weapon slot, as in Doom you can't switch to the SSG.

Ahh, I see. That'd be a problem too, especially since when I was attempting to replace the BFG (before I decided to scrap the grenade launcher), no matter what I did with the dehacked patch, it would refuse to fire if it had less than 40 ammo. It worked fine in zdoom, but not in choco, heh.

On a similar but not entirely related note, even if the BFG 40-ammo issue could be solved (yes, I did change the bfg ammo usage in dehacked. it seemed to have no effect in choco), I'm not adding the grenade launcher back in, because now I wouldn't be able to without losing one of the new monsters' projectile types, and because of a few other issues.

For one thing, the only way I could get the grenades to not inflict damage immediately after hitting something (rather than waiting a few seconds like I wanted) was to set their damage amount to 0 and relying entirely on splash damage from calling the rocket-explosion frames.

This caused the other problem, which is that the final boss, the Bruiser Demon, replaces the Cyberdemon and is thus immune to splash damage (I originally had it in another monster slot, but this was necessary to prevent it from killing itself with one of its own attacks).

Thus, I could either have grenades that were completely worthless and always exploded on impact with anything (i.e. why waste your time when you could use the rocket launcher and do the same thing with much more range), or I could have grenades that were completely useless against the final boss.

So in the end I ditched it, and was then able to turn the player's plasma shots into normal Doom rockets, make the rocket launcher fire the plasma-turned-rockets instead (I'll make an optional bex patch or something so they don't look weird in ports that make plasma translucent), and was then able to turn the normal rockets into the Dark Imp's blue fireballs, so that it could throw them using the CyberAttack codepointer. This is KDiKDiZD Gross Hack #377B.

(Yes, the plasma-turned-rockets behave and look exactly the same as normal rockets. Playing in vanilla you can't tell the difference at all, the only issue is with ports that add special visual effects to plasma fire.)

This dehacked stuff is confusing :p

EDIT: In other news, I just want to thank you all for not complaining about this being a Doom 2 project (not yet, at least). Regardless of any technical licensing stuff, it's a remake of a free shareware episode, made for a full commercial game. A remake of something free, made for something that you have to pay for. If Doom 2 was still a new game, this would do nothing to harm Doom's sales and could potentially serve to increase Doom 2's. Even if there was a moral issue with it, I think the KDiZD levels are far enough removed from the original e1 maps to nullify the issue.

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Last edited by esselfortium on 01-15-08 at 07:02

Old Post 01-15-08 06:09 #
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myk
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esselfortium said:
That'd be a problem too, especially since when I was attempting to replace the BFG (before I decided to scrap the grenade launcher), no matter what I did with the dehacked patch, it would refuse to fire if it had less than 40 ammo. It worked fine in zdoom, but not in choco, heh.
That has to be a Chocolate Doom bug. I just tested in Doom and it allowed me to go under 40 with shots costing 1 each.

As for grenades, they seem more useful/suitable with mouse-look, in any case.

Old Post 01-15-08 08:26 #
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Grazza
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myk said:
That has to be a Chocolate Doom bug. I just tested in Doom and it allowed me to go under 40 with shots costing 1 each.
Judging from this, this bug has been fixed in SVN. I haven't verified that yet though. Verified using r997.

Old Post 01-15-08 09:11 #
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kristus
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Craigs said:


Might actually be a bit easier. You'd have a few more monsters and objects to work with when it comes to dehacked and the super shotgun would already be implemented.



Aside fom the SSG, no you don't.


esselfortium said:

but there are some remaining differences (using a different sky on the secret map, for example) and also the fact that I'd have to start from scratch with the texture wad.



Last time I checked though, the secret exit switches only work in Map15 (to secret) and Map31 (to super secret). So you'd have to start on map12 or whatever.

Why would you have to start from scratch with the textures wad? I would assume that this part is something that should work pretty much from the box already.. aside from that Zdoom can use textures on floors/ceilings and vice versa.

Old Post 01-15-08 14:27 #
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esselfortium
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kristus said:
Last time I checked though, the secret exit switches only work in Map15 (to secret) and Map31 (to super secret). So you'd have to start on map12 or whatever.

Yeah, z1m1 will have to be map13.


Why would you have to start from scratch with the textures wad? I would assume that this part is something that should work pretty much from the box already.. aside from that Zdoom can use textures on floors/ceilings and vice versa.

Hmm. After some thinking about it, the main issue that I thought was preventing me from doing that is probably not an issue at all. I'll try it out later today and see if I have any luck turning it from a folder of pngs and texture1/pnames files into a wad with lumps.

I was expecting there to be some problems with the ordering of the lumps, but I don't think either pnames or texture1 depends on lumps remaining in a specific order, as long as they stay between the pp_start/pp_end markers. Big oversight on my part, heh.

Another reason I didn't want to just throw the entire texture wad in there was because, since we're using so many new custom textures per map (for things like colored lighting, flats to textures and vice versa, making structures look more complex than they actually are, etc.) it'd make the wad file much bigger and take significantly longer to pass back and forth. Oh well. :\

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Old Post 01-15-08 15:03 #
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myk
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esselfortium said:
as long as they stay between the pp_start/pp_end markers.
And those are just for organizational purposes; only editing tools really care about them, as the engine checks PNAMES to find which lumps are patches.

Old Post 01-15-08 15:16 #
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