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Belial
Viva Negativa!


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Death-Destiny said:
Let me know if anyone can finish "Lich" in the same way... even I have trouble with that one.



+ Easy it is to make a level difficult, but could I trick someone else into playing it?

To be specific, with the archie that's on top of the medkits in the red key room removed or a berserk + green armor set instead of the medkits, the map might've actually been fun to play. Some armor somewhere in the YK fight area would've been nice too.

Map10 is almost as annoying, but I'll let that one slide.

Old Post 04-21-08 23:25 #
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Undead+priest
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oh god 5 archies ** its gonna be a pain ;_;

Hey great work Death...keep up!

Old Post 04-21-08 23:53 #
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Butts
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only 5 archviles?

weak. play map 21 of kama sutra. in fact, just play the whole megawad.

well this is definitely looking good, death.

Old Post 04-22-08 00:01 #
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Death-Destiny
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I see that the 5 arch-viles have gotten some attention, so this is a good time to discuss difficulty. Like I said, DP will be tougher than the original on UV. I'm planning on making Skill 3 about equal in difficulty to the original and skill 4 about the difficulty of the first episode of HR2 or the middle episode of KS on UV. I do realize that some players are more skilled than others. I believe I also mentioned that the first level has dramatic differences in difficulty, so the player can be sure to pick the difficulty that's right for them and not get stuck down the road. On the same subject...


Belial said:

To be specific, with the archie that's on top of the medkits in the red key room removed or a berserk + green armor set instead of the medkits, the map might've actually been fun to play. Some armor somewhere in the YK fight area would've been nice too.
Map10 is almost as annoying, but I'll let that one slide.



Uhhhhhh, that's why there are skill levels that give you armor, better weapons, and more ammo. Of course you're going to get frustrated if you play on a skill level that's too hard for you. On a side note, I'd like to remind everyone not to spam the DP board with non-related topics or with some sort of childish whining/complaining so that we can stay on-topic. Thank you! =/

But Belial gives a great example of the importance of difficulty settings. I take difficulty settings seriously. There are a lot of players out there who are freakin' sweet at this game, and I want to make a skill that will be engaging to them, which is skill 4. Skill 3 is for "average" players, about the skill level most people are at for casual gaming, and skills 1 and 2 are for beginners or people who play infrequently or very casually, etc. By no means feel obligated to play DP on UV, or you may end up like Belial. =(
you can always try the map on a tougher skill level later on. =)

Old Post 04-22-08 02:38 #
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esselfortium
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Death-Destiny said:
Uhhhhhh, that's why there are skill levels that give you armor, better weapons, and more ammo. Of course you're going to get frustrated if you play on a skill level that's too hard for you. On a side note, I'd like to remind everyone not to spam the DP board with non-related topics or with some sort of childish whining/complaining so that we can stay on-topic. Thank you! =/

But Belial gives a great example of the importance of difficulty settings. I take difficulty settings seriously. There are a lot of players out there who are freakin' sweet at this game, and I want to make a skill that will be engaging to them, which is skill 4. Skill 3 is for "average" players, about the skill level most people are at for casual gaming, and skills 1 and 2 are for beginners or people who play infrequently or very casually, etc. By no means feel obligated to play DP on UV, or you may end up like Belial. =(
you can always try the map on a tougher skill level later on. =)


You should probably take note that Belial is generally considered to be one of the most skilled players in the community, sometimes to the point of ridiculousness. Also note that he didn't say "too hard" but rather not fun and annoying. There is a difference.

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Old Post 04-22-08 02:56 #
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Belial
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I just don't feel like playing the 6 minutes that lead to the red key room over and over again only because the fight there is more or less luck-based.

IMO you are missing something that's clearly noticable when you play a wad like, say, DV2 - demo-friendliness.

On a more general note, never place decor things on the edge of a taller sector in a way that will make the player get caught on them when they're gliding along the line.

Old Post 04-22-08 04:40 #
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K!r4
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Death-Destiny said:
By no means feel obligated to play DP on UV, or you may end up like Belial. =(

You should watch his compet-n records on HR and his maxdemos on DV2 =P

I agree with Belial, you should take exemple on 'demo-friendliness' wads like ksutra or dv2 wich are great to play in all categories of runs and so also for common players. It's why HR2 have less success than Alien Vendetta for a good exemple, because of the lack of fun.
Of course you can still work on your maps as you wish (there is not a dictatorship of speedrunners :P), but you're maybe missing a way to do a successful wad.

And wth, you haven't took him for betatesting yet ? D:

Old Post 04-22-08 10:35 #
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gggmork
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There, I beat dr2008v2 11 uv max but its a terrible/inefficient demo, especially the second half where I had little practice, PLUS I took a bathroom break right in the middle of it!

http://www.sendspace.com/file/iu5aco

EDIT: here's an exploit to get the red key in only about a minute and avoid the warping cyberdemon (by initially being pacifist so nobody hears you. You can shoot in the red key room because its not connected to the enemy rooms apparently. I die soon though.):

http://www.sendspace.com/file/tm0os0

Last edited by gggmork on 04-23-08 at 08:28

Old Post 04-22-08 12:03 #
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The Lag
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balls


balls and ego

Old Post 04-22-08 13:31 #
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Artillery
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C'mon Death Destiny, don't let your ego get the better of you. You managed to get a load of doomers waiting for your project. The idea of making a plutonia remake was right between the eyes. Now, that you're already half-way done and have a load of attention, it would be a shame to ruin it by trying to go overboard where it's not appropriate.

My opinion is: gameplay is an important aspect of mapping. Making your work too tough will turn-off a large amount of players, after all it's supposed to be fun, not frustrating. We already have HR, Ksutra, HR2, AV, DV2 and whatnot. Plutonia's difficulty was due to intelligent monster placement, not piling-up monsters. Since Belial has a reputation of the best beta-tester around, I'd suggest listening to his advice. It will only make your work better.

I'm really looking forward to this project, therefore, I wouldn't want this to turn into another Hellcore II, where the designers put a lot of effort, but ruined half of the fun due to not wanting to listen to beta-testers. In the end few people really enjoyed playing it, and it's earned a reputation of being the "architecture museum" best played with idclip and iddqd on.

Making a modernised remake of plutonia, with gameplay that requires tact is a great idea. Making it into a frustrating BFG-fest, where gameplay depends on luck isn't.

Just my 2 cents.

Old Post 04-22-08 14:23 #
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Death-Destiny
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Woah, now, cool off everyone, you missed the point entirely. I'm not dissing Belial's skills or advice. I agree that fun is the most important aspect of a WAD. The fact that the preferred gameplay he was describing was a description of a different skill level simply made it the perfect example for my discussion. It is unnecessary to infer anything other than what I said or take it the wrong way...

Another thing I've noticed is that I seem to have accidentally given the impression that the DP will follew in the footsteps of HR2, KS, and suchlike. I was not using these to describe the GAMEPLAY STYLE, but rather the LEVEL OF INTENSITY. Rest assured there will be no BFG-slaughters or suchlike. The gameplay is still Plutonia-style, just harder than the original.

Also:

Belial said:
I'm almost done with my exams, so if you need help with testing these are definitely my kind of maps.



Death-Destiny said:

I won't need any beta testers for probably another couple of months or so when I've got all the maps finished and finalized. Belial's beta-testing reputation seems to preceed him... I'll be sure to ask him when we get there. Thanks in advance Belial!!! =D



I would be glad to let Belial beta-test this if he wants too. =)
I should also probably get some other beta-testers as well, so if anyone else wants to or knows anyone who would, feel free to let me know. =)

Old Post 04-22-08 21:07 #
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dutch devil
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Belial is an robot from the future that plays doom maps 24 hours per day, in terms of playing skills he is an Ferrari and I am an beat up Volkswagen :p

Necrosphere is mine MINE!! my precious me wants it me likes it...:p just kidding go ahead use it my map names aren't final yet, but you are right about it taking an decade or so.

Good luck with your project you seem to make alot faster progress than me.

Old Post 04-22-08 22:25 #
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K!r4
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So my bad heh, I'm quite rassured now ¦]

Death-Destiny said:
I should also probably get some other beta-testers as well, so if anyone else wants to or knows anyone who would, feel free to let me know. =)

I'm interested, I've exams soon but I still can do some betatesting the week-end, like saturday in the evening GMT+01 (I can manage a little time between my studies and others projects where I'm, plus I end my exams at the end of the next month).

Old Post 04-22-08 22:26 #
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Death-Destiny
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Let's not get ahead of ourselves. DP still needs 13 more maps before it will be complete, and it is very possible that the ones that are already done may not yet be final. No sense testing something that isn't final. At our current rate of progress, beta-testing will probably begin sometime in mid-to-late-May. (Yay! =D)

Old Post 04-23-08 21:06 #
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the iron hitman
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Yay! Mid-Late May should be ok for me :D. Can I beta test when the time arrives?

Old Post 04-23-08 21:14 #
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K!r4
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Death-Destiny said:
No sense testing something that isn't final.

Without an exhaustive playtesting you can't say that a map is final. Maybe do you want to mean 'final' in the sense where you've done all you wished to do :P

Old Post 04-23-08 22:36 #
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Death-Destiny
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K!r4 said:

Without an exhaustive playtesting you can't say that a map is final. Maybe do you want to mean 'final' in the sense where you've done all you wished to do :P


Yes, that's what I mean if you insist I word it like that, since obviously the map would change after being tested. =P If the map were final in the sense that it wouldn't change, it wouldn't need beta-testing, now would it. ;)

the iron hitman said:
Yay! Mid-Late May should be ok for me :D. Can I beta test when the time arrives?

Of course, no problems at all! =D

Old Post 04-23-08 23:06 #
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Artillery
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Well, tecnically, I think DD should do what feels best for him. When all is said and done, he's the mapper. We're here to help with suggestions, and beta testers are there to help with some serious suggestions.

In the end, we all want to see a quality mapset that we'll enjoy. Pulling-off 32 maps on your own is quite a task. Speeding 32 maps on your own, while making them at the same time quality works is respect-worthy on it's own.

Old Post 04-23-08 23:14 #
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Death-Destiny
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Update: The next map in Dark Plutonia is now essentially complete. The map for today was map24,"The Final Frontier." That was the one with the floating arch-vile cages. Along with map27, this is the other "Post-Mortem"-ish map. I'm always amazed at how these maps can look so good when being dominated by only two textures (STONE4 and STONE6.), but nonetheless is one of my favorite generic themes for some reason.

The DP variant follows the original theme pretty closely. Perhaps a bit more red than the original. Curiously enough, this map has the same number of enemies as map27, "Satan's Angel" on UV. I guess that's kinda cool. =)

Anyways, screenies of "The Outer Limits": [Outdated]
Behold the cavern-ness!
May you experience the limits of suffering and pain... JK =P
Floating is good!

Well, 20/32, 63% completion. I'd say we're in good shape progress wise. Hey, were in the 20's now!!! ^.^

Last edited by Death-Destiny on 05-12-08 at 05:19

Old Post 04-26-08 05:45 #
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Mechadon
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Yup I remember them ole floaty archviles :D

Old Post 04-26-08 05:47 #
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Undead+priest
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wow nice screenies :D once again good job DD

Old Post 04-26-08 05:53 #
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Artillery
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Great, I like this style of levels as well. And "Outer Limits" sounds mighty. I love those descriptive spacey titles.

Old Post 04-26-08 10:58 #
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the iron hitman
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Gotta love those floating archviles :D. Once again DD, good job :D

Old Post 04-26-08 11:01 #
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Death-Destiny
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Artillery said:
Well, tecnically, I think DD should do what feels best for him. When all is said and done, he's the mapper. We're here to help with suggestions, and beta testers are there to help with some serious suggestions.

In the end, we all want to see a quality mapset that we'll enjoy. Pulling-off 32 maps on your own is quite a task. Speeding 32 maps on your own, while making them at the same time quality works is respect-worthy on it's own.



You're one of the few people who seems to understand this concept. Making a megaWAD in ~3 months is not easy, and it's even harder to make them good. Here, let me explain to you people why I feel I can assert my opinion so confidently.

Back when I was discussing difficulty settings, I was getting the vibe that unless I conform to what eveyone else says and especially people like Belial, my mapset will fail. I've looked at Belial's HR max demos like you said. To signal out one, Belial got 10:00 on HRmap15. I got 9:56 on the same map:

Proof for the non-believers: http://files.filefront.com/DDHR15lm...;/fileinfo.html ,recorded with Zdoom V2.0.1

To use you people's own words, that makes me one of the "most skilled members in your community, bordering on ridiculous", one of your "Doomgods of insane skill". I've been playing doom nearly since the day it was released and have been mapping for some number of years as well. How the hell do you guys think I can map so fast and still do such good work. Am I a natural talent? No... I became this good through time and experiences. I'm already familiar with all the standard methods of mapping and the most common pitfalls of the art.

The reason I want to tell you this is that I doubt my maps will suck if I challenge other peoples suggestions. I'd tend to think my own judgments are pretty sound and probably more valid than a lot of yours, so it is silly to suggest that my maps will fail if I don't take the advice of key people. The only substantial differance between me and people like Belial, Dutch Devil, and others is that you've never heard of me before, and so I have no reputation to back me up. I've mapped most of my career for recreation, and DP is no different. Remember that the first thing I said was that this project is for my personal interests and that I'm only releasing it because you people asked me too? I don't need your acknowledgement to have confidence in my abilities, and I don't need to release DP either if you people refuse to work together with me and prefer to make judgments.

Now, now, the person who refuses to hear the suggestions of others, regardless of skill, is a fool. All I'm asking is that you realize to whom you speak. You're allowed to give polite advice and, if you seriously disagree with me, you can at least inquire on why I did something the way I did, since I tend to know what I'm doing, though I'm perfectly capable of making mistakes.

I know by now that you Doomworlders tend to over-react, so before you do, I'm not dissing anyone, I'm not trying to have an ego, and this post is meant to be read objectively. I do still want to work together with the community and I'm appreciating you input. I just think it's important to understand that if I do something you disagree with, I probably have a reason. We should discuss it without antagonism. Also, FYI, if we compare merit-based rank, I probably outrank most of you. =) I apologize in advance for this post...

If you didn't read this whole thing, then don't even think of responding until you do. =)

Old Post 04-26-08 22:25 #
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K!r4
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All is fine dude (you should play at the compet-n :P).
I think you should understand that if we're trying to give you some advices it's because we wait a lot of your mapset, so we want to be sure :}
But for now, all is clear heh ;)

Old Post 04-26-08 22:34 #
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TimeOfDeath
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Why does the demo pause for a second after clearing each section?
Anyway, you can't fully compare the times because you recorded with ZDoom.

Old Post 04-26-08 23:39 #
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Death-Destiny
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Good. I'm glad we understand each other. I just feel that too often the criticisms I hear, for any project and not just DP, are very rude, more focused on breaking down the mapper than improving their work... and don't appear to have had much thought put into them... especially considering all the good that often goes unnoted... but as you say, all is good.

In discussion of my demo, I just made that today to validate my point. Since it had to take less than 10 minutes, I was pausing it periodically to check a timer since the HUD doesn't have one for some reason. In regards to the COMPET-N, I'm not a big fan since, while skill and strategy are critical, so is luck. To use my demo as an example, the most efficient way to clear the central room is infighting, which you can't control. If the Cybs leveled ALL of the other imps, my time would have been below 9:50, so it's really just trial and error to get the absolute lowest time. I just posted it because I need a numerical value to prove my skill, which is necessary to assert my point.

Anyway, change of plans for the DP beta-testing. I don't think I'm going to need a particular team of testers. Right now, I'd rather do an open Beta-test. This would get input from a greater sampling of players, and is more manpower besides. No matter how many times me or a few others test a map, it will never be perfect, so we might as well get as many opinions as possible. =) Again, this is still 12 maps away, but that's what the plan is now. Sound good?

Old Post 04-27-08 01:20 #
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gggmork
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Testing would be faster if your 'essentially complete' maps were open for testing now (but I guess your plan is to remove the 'essentially' part first). That's really just a trick to get them in playable form for me earlier ;). Heh, its almost like I have no reason to map because someone else will inevitably do all the work for me.
I really enjoyed your maps so far, and very challenging fun maps are the hard to find minority (besides you've been bothering to implement difficulty settings).
Even though its a separate wad, the arch room of lich is more manageable if you circle around the central shelter to dodge arch blasts. HR has more luck based portions near the middle too (hr13 cage of death, if no exploits are used). Maybe the difference is you kinda have to do some waiting while infighting takes place in lich, so a death = re-waiting while hr13 is constant action. Though taking the route of heading directly to the red key in lich without firing to wake up enemies can make you deal with the luck based arch room sooner and cause a single big infight while you possibly simultaneously deal with other things.

Old Post 04-27-08 02:21 #
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Death-Destiny
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It is fruitless to attempt to persuade me to release any DP maps until all 32 are complete. You won't get anywhere. =P

@gggmonk/Belial: I'm sorry to veer of topic again, but the comments on the red-key arch-vile room in "Lich" are making me very curious. I don't understand how this is luck-based. (T.T) I just repeated and succussfully completed that section 5 times in a row and felt pretty in-control as well. All I did was shoot into the crowd and awaken the archie. All the enemies will then converge on you, including the archie. Just before you get cornered, you circle around the center shelter and the archie will be wide open. If you can't kill it before the pressure returns, you can continue circling around the center, which will be easier since some enemies will be dead by this point. There are 5 pillars, an irregularly shaped room, and the center to block the arch-blasts...

While I ask this mostly out of curiousity, we can say this is related to the DP thread since I might indeed be very lucky and therefore I wouldn't want to put any similar setups in DP. =)

Old Post 04-27-08 04:57 #
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gggmork
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I did it 7/10 times but 2 were close calls (I don't use the mouse so am less skilled). I like that fight and on-your-toes, quick reflex requiring gameplay in general (where enemies move in random directions easily and memory plays less of a role than skill). Maybe the bigger problem (using 'problem' loosly since I like the map) is that a typical route at the beginning requires some tedious waiting around for the cyberdemon to infight. And thus dying later on would require you to wait through the infighting yet again. Actually doesn't even matter because that makes this particular map unique. I probably like map 10 better though; a little more 'constant action' the whole time. Damn doom is an awesome game.. weird, we're basically artificially emulating the danger missing in modern times from our hunter/gatherer past. Just ignore me and make maps however you want. I bet belial would make excellent maps too.

Old Post 04-27-08 06:29 #
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