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DoOmEr4LiFe
DoOm TiL dEaTh

Posts: 757
Registered: 09-00

I am loving WoS. I just beat Map 15 (and also my favorite thus far, awesome music!) except I had to clip to get to the secret exit. My only complaint is some of these secrets are harder than hell to find, not that it matters in terms of actual gameplay, maybe I'm not trying hard enough on some of them, though.

10-08-09 18:31 #

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pcorf
Senior Member

Posts: 1033
Registered: 06-05

Whispers of Satan (V2) isn't too far away.

The new MAP06 is almost done. Just have to add monsters and she's all finished. I estimate the map will be all done Thursday. Phew! - Way less symmetry.

The MAP29 changes are done. The bars now close just before you go back to the room with the keys. This should make this level much more co-op friendly.

The exits in MAP06, MAP11, MAP15, MAP20, MAP24 and MAP29 now kill the player by telefragging him onto a Romero Head and Barrels (like in Scythe II). This marks the end of each episode and you must start the next episode from a Pistol Start. All levels have been tested from Pistol Starts.

All changes will be notified in the changelog.txt inside WOS.ZIP

Last edited by pcorf on 10-13-09 at 17:01

10-13-09 14:07 #

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Phml
Senior Member

Posts: 1823
Registered: 06-09

There's much more to oldschool gameplay than monster count, and if WoS is what Doom was meant to be then I'm glad John Romero didn't know what Doom was meant to be.

Yes, it mimics classic Doom, it looks the same, but it's obvious few of the underlying principles were applied or even understood. Game balance isn't simply putting a specific amount of monsters and a corresponding amount of ammo and health. Level design isn't only placing rooms with interconnectivity, switches and keys. Finally, shoving more detail just for the sake of adding detail doesn't serve much purpose.

I've tried to refrain from commenting further since my previous posts on this topic as quite a lot of folks enjoy it and I don't want to pee in their cheerios, and the other author seems to be a decent enough guy, but you really need to get your ego in check if you think your wad is relatively as good as, say, DOOM E1, and baiting people repeatedly with that "the way Doom was meant to be" catchphrase is just trying to start trouble.

Would Whispers of Satan be half as popular if it was released with an anonymous name instead of two well-known and appreciated authors ? I have my doubts. No, let me get that straight - I have NO doubts it wouldn't enjoy the same kind of positive attention it does.

That isn't to say it's bad. I've said it more than once, I'll say it once again : it's a good megawad. I'm sure tons of people are genuinely liking it and have a blast playing and replaying it. I'm sure lots of people would like it and play it, even if it was released by an unknown author.

However, the way you treat your own work like the second coming of Jesus Christ is just completely uncalled for, especially if you're going to keep taking passive-aggressive jabs at other schools of thoughts concerning level design, especially as you seem to only partially understand what made the classic style you claim to use so great.

Whispers of Satan is a solid 4/5 megawad, but your attitude ranks 0 on any scale.

Being a newbie slamming a respected author, I'm aware it's likely I'm not going to make a lot of friends here, and the "where's your own AAA classic megawad ?" answers are bound to come up. Go for it. I'm not saying my maps are great, nor do I even claim to be better than you or anyone else for that matter. It's not so much your work I'm against as the disproportionate way you treat it, seeing as it has its flaws. Even Erik Alm himself would annoy me if he sported that kind of attitude (although in *that* case I'd have nothing but nitpicks to present against his work). You really could use some humility.

To end on a positive note, it's great to see a 2.0 version is shaping up nicely. No matter what my opinion on your attitude and megawad is, I respect the work that went making this and thank you for sharing these maps with the community.

10-13-09 14:57 #

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Solarn
Member

Posts: 479
Registered: 09-08

Two questions:

Then what does constitute old-school gameplay? No, seriously. I always thought it was a specific attitude towards monster count, monster placement and level progression, which WoS has.

What's with the lovefest for E1? I see it hailed by everyone as the greatest thing ever to come of Doom, and while I do like it, it's nowhere near the level of godliness you elevate it to. Personally, I like E2 much more.

Also, and I know this is going to earn me the ire of many people here, why are you invoking Romero? Yeah, he was a cool guy back in the nineties and made some great contributions to Doom, but he's also the guy that made Daikatana. Nowadays the only thing he's got going for him is an ego that doesn't even fit in the same room as him anymore.

Last edited by Solarn on 10-13-09 at 16:18

10-13-09 16:08 #

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Nebula-Kristian
Junior Member

Posts: 169
Registered: 01-06

pcorf said:
-CUT-

Well, at this point I feel like I must comment in on about this, too.

I don't really like the scythe2-ripoff idea in WOS where you must restart every episode-I don't see any point in doing that. This whole thing comes to me as a complete surprise! I don't think there's any need to mimic what others have done, since WOS has enough original creative look to it already and from my point of view it was never really meant to be anything else than what it is now. If it would have, we would've thought about it before the release. Of course the coop-compatibility fixes on map29 are necessary. When testing it on coop it didn't really come to mind for me that there would be some fixes needed because me & my friend who helped in testing it didn't die once while testing despite some tight situations.

I actually liked map06, despite the fact that it has got some symmetry & copy/paste issues. I didn't even pay attention to them because I respect what my co-workers on any project do. I wouldn't even call them issues because in real life many places & buildings are very symmetrical anyway. Map06 really felt like an interlude map between map05 and map07 with a slower pace and some time to relax between those 2 a little harder maps (not on a HR scale of course) :)

In conclusion, I'd really keep WOS as it is, although a new map06 can be added since you wanted to do that. I wouldn't have cared if the old map06 had been left there instead. It's not the end of the world to have maps that aren't pixel perfect. What I've learnt during the years is that too much perfectionism really greatens the life-threatening bubble growing in the forehead and rising the stress-levels too much. Releasing the valve on perfectionism and allowing oneself to make mistakes has really eased up things for myself.

Also, I like controversial feedback a lot. That really tells that people are liking the creative work, whatever it is, be it paintings, music, doom maps, theatre, movies etc. Criticism is the fruit of creativity with which artists can nourish themselves with.

"When you're married to art of any kind, you'll get critics as your mother-in-law."

Nebula out. Peace.

10-13-09 17:09 #

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Malinku
Member

Posts: 498
Registered: 12-08

pcorf said:

The exits in MAP06, MAP11, MAP15, MAP20, MAP24 and MAP29 now kill the player by telefragging him onto a Romero Head and Barrels (like in Scythe II). This marks the end of each episode and you must start the next episode from a Pistol Start. All levels have been tested from Pistol Starts.

I don't like this I don't like have to play 6 maps in a wad and then start all over just because the theme changed. And I liked playing it the way it was as it is one of the few wads that I want to finish in single player without cheats, as I was a lazy bumb when playing doom. (from map 1 pistol start)

but I feel that a good magawad should be able to be played from map 1 start all the way through. and each map should also be able to be played from pistol start. and pistol start should never be forced apon a player in a magawad only as a the tougher option.

10-13-09 17:24 #

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pcorf
Senior Member

Posts: 1033
Registered: 06-05

DELETE POST

Last edited by pcorf on 10-13-09 at 17:45

10-13-09 17:29 #

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pcorf
Senior Member

Posts: 1033
Registered: 06-05

Malinku said:

I don't like this I don't like have to play 6 maps in a wad and then start all over just because the theme changed. And I liked playing it the way it was as it is one of the few wads that I want to finish in single player without cheats, as I was a lazy bumb when playing doom. (from map 1 pistol start)

but I feel that a good magawad should be able to be played from map 1 start all the way through. and each map should also be able to be played from pistol start. and pistol start should never be forced apon a player in a magawad only as a the tougher option.

Maybe I should just leave it as it was and release the new MAP06 as a standalone map.

10-13-09 17:31 #

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pcorf
Senior Member

Posts: 1033
Registered: 06-05

I'm deciding that I'm going leave WOS as it is for now and release Processing Bunker as a standalone level.

Last edited by pcorf on 10-13-09 at 17:51

10-13-09 17:41 #

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pcorf
Senior Member

Posts: 1033
Registered: 06-05

Nebula-Kristian said:

Well, at this point I feel like I must comment in on about this, too.

I don't really like the scythe2-ripoff idea in WOS where you must restart every episode-I don't see any point in doing that. This whole thing comes to me as a complete surprise! I don't think there's any need to mimic what others have done, since WOS has enough original creative look to it already and from my point of view it was never really meant to be anything else than what it is now. If it would have, we would've thought about it before the release. Of course the coop-compatibility fixes on map29 are necessary. When testing it on coop it didn't really come to mind for me that there would be some fixes needed because me & my friend who helped in testing it didn't die once while testing despite some tight situations.

I actually liked map06, despite the fact that it has got some symmetry & copy/paste issues. I didn't even pay attention to them because I respect what my co-workers on any project do. I wouldn't even call them issues because in real life many places & buildings are very symmetrical anyway. Map06 really felt like an interlude map between map05 and map07 with a slower pace and some time to relax between those 2 a little harder maps (not on a HR scale of course) :)

In conclusion, I'd really keep WOS as it is, although a new map06 can be added since you wanted to do that. I wouldn't have cared if the old map06 had been left there instead. It's not the end of the world to have maps that aren't pixel perfect. What I've learnt during the years is that too much perfectionism really greatens the life-threatening bubble growing in the forehead and rising the stress-levels too much. Releasing the valve on perfectionism and allowing oneself to make mistakes has really eased up things for myself.

Also, I like controversial feedback a lot. That really tells that people are liking the creative work, whatever it is, be it paintings, music, doom maps, theatre, movies etc. Criticism is the fruit of creativity with which artists can nourish themselves with.

"When you're married to art of any kind, you'll get critics as your mother-in-law."

Nebula out. Peace.

Yep. You saved the day mate. Leaving it as is.

I think I just better shut my mouth up and rack off and do my sound editing.

10-13-09 17:47 #

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myk
webbed digits

Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02

Solarn said:
Then what does constitute old-school gameplay?

He's precisely criticizing trying to write that in stone.

What's with the lovefest for E1?

Essentially, his post says he's happy the original shareware episode, which he likes, didn't comply with that "meant to be."

Nowadays the only thing he's got going for him is an ego that doesn't even fit in the same room as him anymore.

That would only start to matter had his name been invoked to set a standard, if at all. Besides, I don't like id's games after Quake that much either, but that doesn't affect the games I do like.

To name a similar example, I really like the movie Alien, which is one of my favorite movies, yet I consider most of Ridley Scott's work to be veritable trash. Some people just show genius at certain points.

10-13-09 21:16 #

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Solarn
Member

Posts: 479
Registered: 09-08

myk said:
He's precisely criticizing trying to write that in stone.

Phml said
There's much more to oldschool gameplay than monster count, and if WoS is what Doom was meant to be then I'm glad John Romero didn't know what Doom was meant to be.

Yes, it mimics classic Doom, it looks the same, but it's obvious few of the underlying principles were applied or even understood.

To me, that doesn't sound like criticizing pcorf for assuming to know what "old school" gameplay is. It sounds more like "You don't know what old school is! I know what it is and WoS isn't it!"

myk said:
Essentially, his post says he's happy the original shareware episode, which he likes, didn't comply with that "meant to be."

And at the same time, sets E1 as some kind of standard everyone should comply with, which just irks me to no end.

myk said:
That would only start to matter had his name been invoked to set a standard, if at all. Besides, I don't like id's games after Quake that much either, but that doesn't affect the games I do like.

To name a similar example, I really like the movie Alien, which is one of my favorite movies, yet I consider most of Ridley Scott's work to be veritable trash. Some people just show genius at certain points.

I concede your point.

10-14-09 07:26 #

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ihateflesh
Warming Up

Posts: 12
Registered: 07-09

I tried to give this wad another play, but i just can't stand it. it's game play is just unplayable. it's not too hard, but just tedious. I'm at level 7 with 20 rockets, and a BFG but no super shotgun. What the fuck?

10-16-09 00:54 #

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pcorf
Senior Member

Posts: 1033
Registered: 06-05

ihateflesh said:
I tried to give this wad another play, but i just can't stand it. it's game play is just unplayable. it's not too hard, but just tedious. I'm at level 7 with 20 rockets, and a BFG but no super shotgun. What the fuck?

There are SSG's in Level 4 on the western side of the map near the Hell Knight, level 5 in the small room with the Revenant and crates near the exit and below the starting area in Level 6. You missed them. And plus Level 7 can be beaten from a pistol start. Look, look, look...

10-16-09 02:57 #

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darkreaver
Forum Regular

Posts: 985
Registered: 05-08

Ok, Im on lvl 25 now, and I must say I have enjoyed WoS. Good design and detailing, but I must say the fights are very...hmmm how to say this in english...no surprises, if you know what I mean? I always know what to expect, sort of. Also many of the maps are very symmetrical, or repetative almost, dunno how to explain hehe

Not that it matters that much imo though, but yeah

Cool wad and i enjoyed it, and Im certain I will enjoy the last few maps as well!

10-18-09 22:06 #

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DaniJ
Senior Member

Posts: 1691
Registered: 08-03

If you do decide to release a bug fix release of this megawad, something you might like to address is the waterfall in MAP01 after you open the entry way door using the switch outside. Some GL ports will produce plane glows for some flats (mostly animated liquids) and because of this it looks a little odd. All that is needed to change the texture in the sector above the "black box" to say a solid black flat or one which matches the wall.

No big deal though, I'm sure I can work around this minor artefact algorithmically.

10-20-09 12:46 #

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Vermil
Senior Member

Posts: 1146
Registered: 03-04

Why is water lit up in Doomsday anyway?

Well, I can imagine it's because glowing planes in Dday have to be full bright. Any chance of that requirement being removed (i.e that a plane can give off a glow and not be full bright)?

10-20-09 12:55 #

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DaniJ
Senior Member

Posts: 1691
Registered: 08-03

Water reflects light. Granted it shouldn't be anywhere near as strong as it currently is but up until recently, it was an all-or-nothing affair. As of 1.9.0-beta7 the glows will be tuned for each material.

Vermil said:
Well, I can imagine it's because glowing planes in Dday have to be full bright. Any chance of that requirement being removed (i.e that a plane can give off a glow and not be full bright)?

It is already optional, open the console and enter rend-glow 0 The wall glow can be disabled using rend-glow-wall 0

Last edited by DaniJ on 10-20-09 at 13:25

10-20-09 12:59 #

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sonic_13
Mini-Member

Posts: 53
Registered: 07-06

I just want to let you know that I have found this wad exceptionally awesome. I'm yet to finish it, but I've gotten pretty far.

My key reason for posting, is to note that it took me just til now to realize that most of my favorite wads of the past were done by you.

ADO2002 I played through not too awful long ago for the first time (within the past few months), and I must say I felt like I was sucked back 13 years ago and playing Doom 1 for the very first time all over again. The feelings of nostalgia overwhelmed me, that had to of been one of the greatest wads I've ever played.

I found Bella very entertaining as well. I hardly can remember it this many years later, but I do remember playing through most of it, and getting confused towards map 30ish (not 100% sure if I finished the wad or not... maybe I should find it and try it all over again).

It means nothing coming from me, but thought I'd toss in my two cents (gathered from reading the first 5 or so pages of this thread). After doing a bit of research I've come across a list of some of the maps you've created in the past. Rest assured, when I have the time, I will be checking them out. You clearly are very talented, and I hope if you ever get the urge to make more maps, you won't be swayed by a bunch of rubbish comments. Thank you for all the fun you've put into this game.

10-20-09 13:40 #

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hamburgers
Newbie

Posts: 3
Registered: 10-09

Can someone tell me where the super shotgun is? I've played to level 7 and still can't find it!

10-23-09 22:18 #

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Snakes
Senior Member

Posts: 1352
Registered: 09-09

Really? Two people had this problem? I mean, it isn't exactly hard to find. I'll only give this bit of information: the first one is on Map04, and it isn't even a secret. On the contrary, it's pretty much in plain sight.

Play Map04. If you reach the exit, you've gone too far.

Map05 and Map06 both have SSGs in secret locations.

10-23-09 23:24 #

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vdgg
Moderator

Posts: 794
Registered: 08-07

Until today I have played about 19 levels of WoS, so I can add my 2 cents. I won't say anything positive or negative about WoS as a whole: even if I had finished all the levels, it would be too early; I remember playing 2002ADO for the first time and the feeling of a slight disappointment. After the second time it became one of my all-time favourites, 1st place among Doom WADs, one of 8 best WADs of all times...

Initially I played the levels on HMP, from the first level. I kept on dying on level 5, then I finished it with low health and died immediately on level 6. I recall MAP05: outstanding visually, I disliked one aspect of gameplay: how to defeat the revenants guarding the switch lowering the BK? With the shotgun through the windows it takes ages. Entering the tower with the SSG/chaingun seemed suicidal but I'm not patient enough to make the 1st choice...

Then I switched to UV and recorded some "first demo attempts". Watching the demos is not recommended, I would lose all the FDA contests I guess. Perhaps Paul and Kristian would like to watch a bit of them and feel satisfaction for the traps I fell into ;-P

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=B2CK2GGZ

Here is the time of first exit and number of deaths (in the order I played the maps):

LEV TIME DEATHS

16 10:42 3
17 11:31 18
18 8:35 2
19 21:35 2
20 18:25 0
21 15:21 3
14 24:53 21
13 8:47 2
12 10:10 8
11 14:56 5

Recorded with PRBoom plus -complevel 9

These figures can be a little misleading, because there are such factors as fatigue or luck. (I was extremely lucky on MAP19). But the numbers clearly show that I had problems with maps 12,14 and 17.

As I said, I not feel like reviewing the whole WAD after playing these maps + 1-5, 15, 22 and perhaps two more. Just a few impressions about individual levels:

MAP16 - visually stunning, looked a bit like Malcolm Sailor levels. There is symmetry here, so often criticized in this thread, but I didn't care.

MAP17 - I died many times because of the horde of demons. Then I wanted to finish the level faster, going up the stairway with chaingunners, and died and died and died... Quite frustrating and disappointing level, I must say. I liked the layout, though. I pick up the BK and jump and I'm right in front of the blue key door. BTW, the first big room with BK door and YK door is a masterpiece.

MAP18 - the only 'too symmetrical' level, I must confess. Also the arrows pointing at the red key... Why??? I mean, the arrows were very cool in 2002ADO E1M1, but here they are out of place, the style is very different.

MAP19 - Great level. I felt like playing an AD&D RPG game. I entered the final room with just 12 bullets and 1 rocket (many cells but no plasma weapons), so I had some luck to go past that arch-vile :)

MAP20 - a bit like 2002ADO, but I don't rememeber much actually - no deaths...

MAP21 - another level with a fine symmetry which I don't mind. Great opening area.

MAP14 - the greatest of them all so far. Fantastic gameplay. I kept on dying and still wanted to play. I guess there are some potent secrets (ammo, armor?) but I found none, so there was very little ammo and very little health. I'd like to see a Max demo of this one.

MAP13 - no comment

MAP12 - Guess where I died? Crazy traps, but it's Ultra-Violence, after all... Again a mancubus at the exit...

MAP11 - Oh, this was cheap. A berserk pack in the middle of an empty room. I pick up the berserk to be surrounded by demons. How many times I had played it? Also, cyberdemons that almost don't move. Very disappointing.

Overall, I had great fun playing these levels and I'm impressed by the effort put into the details, lighting and atmosphere. The music was pretty good. Also, many times I was guessing: "This level was created by Kristian / Paul", but I almost always failed. Your styles are indistinguishable :)

One question about recording demos - is there a particular -complevel in mind? I'd rather not use ZDoom...

10-24-09 23:46 #

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Never_Again
knows his birth month

Posts: 851
Registered: 04-03

Last edited by Never_Again on 06-13-10 at 16:48

10-25-09 09:56 #

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Nebula-Kristian
Junior Member

Posts: 169
Registered: 01-06

Nebula-Kristian said:

The megawad is partially dedicated to my late fianc� (Linda) who suffered a terrible accident nearly 3 years ago and died 1,5 years ago after being in the hospital for the time between. Also the music in the map is the first piece of music I composed after her death. Hence the name "Cryosleep" for the map because of her nick "Cryonica" and the name of the midi is "Walz of the Dead".

I was playing map19 today and noticed that Pcorf had added a misspellt obituary for ESPI below the obituary for my late fianc�. The death of Espi is unfortunate and a very sad thing, but I want to point out that map19 was made during the months following Linda's death and it's very personal and emotional to me, and it's dedicated just to her and nobody else.

EDIT: It seems it is the sky transfer box for boom, but I would've appreciated it more to leave the espi obituary out for the obvious reasons.

EDIT: And Thanks a lot for the demos, they were fun to watch indeed :)

Last edited by Nebula-Kristian on 10-28-09 at 23:45

10-28-09 17:22 #

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Baby Bonnie Hood
Junior Member

Posts: 120
Registered: 05-09

pcorf said:
The exits in MAP06, MAP11, MAP15, MAP20, MAP24 and MAP29 now kill the player by telefragging him onto a Romero Head and Barrels (like in Scythe II). This marks the end of each episode and you must start the next episode from a Pistol Start.

Can't you just do a pistol start without death exits? I'm not really a fan of death exits, they're just so messy and annoying.

Maybe I shouldn't update after all...

10-29-09 03:45 #

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pcorf
Senior Member

Posts: 1033
Registered: 06-05

Baby Bonnie Hood said:

Can't you just do a pistol start without death exits? I'm not really a fan of death exits, they're just so messy and annoying.

Maybe I shouldn't update after all...

No. This wont happen. Next update will fix the MAP29 co-op problem. MAP19 changes to remove the RIP words plus another hour of uploading for me. Thats it. No new MAP06.

The MAP05 secret exit has been removed.

The death exits have been undone.

Secret levels will be unchanged.

And thats it for me.

Last edited by pcorf on 10-29-09 at 03:54

10-29-09 03:49 #

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Baby Bonnie Hood
Junior Member

Posts: 120
Registered: 05-09

Oh, I didn't realize you changed your mind. I didn't had time to read the rest when I posted that.

I actually don't mind starting the next level on a pistol start, but I do mind when it's caused by getting killed right before I exited. I'm aware that it's the only way to do a pistol start in the vanilla engine, but for me it just mocks me with "you won the level now you die lol" especially when the narrative justification for it is nonexistent or nonsensical.

10-29-09 09:45 #

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pcorf
Senior Member

Posts: 1033
Registered: 06-05

I've been busy but the final version of WOS should be hopefully ready soon. That will include a fixed MAP29 for coop play and some minor changes to MAP19.

I've also released a new single player level for Doom 2 named Processing Bunker. http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?id=15920

But now I think its time for a good break from mapping. Phew!

I will continue to make maps... but probably only 2 or 3 per year. No more episodes, just occasional one level WAD's.

Last edited by pcorf on 11-16-09 at 12:25

11-16-09 10:55 #

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Philnemba
Forum Regular

Posts: 956
Registered: 09-09

pcorf said:

I've also released a new single player level for Doom 2 named Processing Bunker.

Just play it on both HMP and UV. Surprisingly difficult and long for a map06 replacement but I can tell that since its not going to be in WOS you decide to make it hard. Very good map you made.

11-17-09 00:33 #

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pcorf
Senior Member

Posts: 1033
Registered: 06-05

Philnemba said:

Just play it on both HMP and UV. Surprisingly difficult and long for a map06 replacement but I can tell that since its not going to be in WOS you decide to make it hard. Very good map you made.

Yeah, the version for WOS had the exit located at just before the blue key exit door but after deciding I wasn't going to include it in WOS I expanded the map and wanted to have a decent challenge in it. Also in fact that this map uses some textures from WOS.

Playtesting took about a week and I came up with a new method which should improve gameplay in any future maps I put out. I put the monsters in first and then gradually added ammo. I wanted to make sure the ammo balance was tight-ish so initial testing was done with god mode on killing the monsters and seeing how much ammo was left and so on, adding and deleting ammo along the way. I then added the health to the level last and tested it a few more times without god mode. I beat it after a long struggle and thought I'd throw in a nasty trap as the exit was opened. Two Archviles if you don't mind, with one teleporting out behind you and another guarding the exit room so you fight each Archvile separately. If this map was put straight into WOS as it was released it probably would have been too hard for the MAP06 slot.

I was going to use WOS's MAP06 music for the level but decided to use the music from TNT instead. Well mainly because this isn't anything to do with WOS and I wanted something haunting for a dark underground level. I also came close to using Doom 2's MAP04 song, Between Levels.

Last edited by pcorf on 11-17-09 at 01:27

11-17-09 01:22 #

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Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > WADs & Mods > Whispers of Satan RELEASED!

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