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magicsofa
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I feel that the difficulty should ideally be controlled by the ... ahem, difficulty settings.

As a side note, remember that heretic doesn't change many of doom's original behaviors - that includes giving you double ammo on black plague!

Old Post 05-02-08 22:11 #
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Creaphis
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ler said:
[B
Creaphis: I don't know about you, but Episode 3 was devilishly difficult.[/B]


I guess I've played enough Heretic to get quite proficient at it, but the only level I would call "devilishly difficult" is the first level of episode four and its severe ammo shortage. Once you get used to the enemy firing patterns you can dodge basically anything - the complete lack of monsters with hitscan attacks makes it feel relatively easy to me.

Of course, it's hard to evade those lich tornadoes.

Old Post 05-02-08 22:18 #
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The Ultimate DooMer
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Creaphis said:


I guess I've played enough Heretic to get quite proficient at it, but the only level I would call "devilishly difficult" is the first level of episode four and its severe ammo shortage. Once you get used to the enemy firing patterns you can dodge basically anything - the complete lack of monsters with hitscan attacks makes it feel relatively easy to me.

Of course, it's hard to evade those lich tornadoes.



Try the other maps with a pistol start ;)

Old Post 05-02-08 22:44 #
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Creaphis
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I've played them all from wand starts on black plague (with saving and loading). If your goal is 100% kills 100% secrets, e4m1 really is the hardest level; you need to use basically every item, lots of infighting, and a crushing ceiling to finish.

Back to this project: The texture wad has "animdefs" and "terrain" lumps - are these Zdoom specific? I think that individual maps should avoid all Zdoom-specific features, but if this is a Zdoom-specific wad, then we could also include a mapinfo lump so that mappers can have more variety in sky choice, etc.

As for the texture wad problem, it has extra "MOSSRCKF" and "MOSSRCKG" entries in Pnames with no patches to match them. The easiest way to fix that might be to just add dummy patches with those names to the wad. Or, if this won't be a problem for any engines running the final wad file, we could just ignore it.

Last edited by Creaphis on 05-03-08 at 00:20

Old Post 05-03-08 00:08 #
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Artillery
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Creaphis said:
The texture wad has "animdefs" and "terrain" lumps - are these Zdoom specific? I think that individual maps should avoid all Zdoom-specific features, but if this is a Zdoom-specific wad, then we could also include a mapinfo lump so that mappers can have more variety in sky choice, etc.


No, it's for limit removing. No zdoom features are allowed, but there's no worry about visplane overflows and such crap.

Old Post 05-03-08 00:18 #
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ler
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That texture wad wasn't specifically built for vanilla Heretic compatibility, thus our problems.

Also, if there's no patches can't you just remove it from PNAMES? not that it's a really big problem, since it doesn't actually kill anything in game.

Old Post 05-03-08 00:21 #
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magicsofa
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I want E2M5 if 's cool

Old Post 05-03-08 00:30 #
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Creaphis
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You can remove the extra names from PNAMES, yes, except that XWE or the wad format itself seems to require that there can be no gaps in the patch numbers. When deleting the MOSSRCKF and MOSSRCKG entries and saving the PNAMES lump, XWE automatically lowers the number of every patch after those patches in PNAMES, and then the TEXTURE1 and TEXTURE2 lumps refer to the wrong patch numbers in their definitions, screwing up most textures. A utility could be programmed to remove entries in PNAMES without this difficulty but I don't know if one exists alerady.

Old Post 05-03-08 00:53 #
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Patrick
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EDIT: nvm
Janitor==Stupid

Old Post 05-03-08 00:55 #
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ler
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Have you tried with Slumped? I kind of prefer it over XWE anyway, and it might react differently.

Old Post 05-03-08 01:01 #
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Creaphis
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Actually yeah, Slumped was able to fix it right away. I've never used Slumped before, and just assumed that XWE was sufficient, but it looks like they each have their strong points.

Here's a fixed texture wad:
http://www.zshare.net/download/11436936a226a4a2/

Old Post 05-03-08 01:41 #
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ler
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Wonderful. Maps that didn't run before are running now.

Only problem is that on some textures Heretic+ still wants to garble them. I looked at those textures myself and couldn't comprehend how they could possibly be broken, so I'm not exactly sure what to do.

It might be a good idea to run through the test wads with Heretic+ to see which ones I mean, there's a couple.

Old Post 05-03-08 05:00 #
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Creaphis
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I can't even find Heretic+ anywhere. Does it go by another name? Is it currently maintained? We can't ignore the possibility that messed up textures are a port problem if it isn't well maintained.

Edit: Nevermind, I found heretic-plus-1.32.1 on Sourceforge; I assume this is the port you meant.

Old Post 05-03-08 05:29 #
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ler
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To be fair it's barely a port; it's useful because it's just Heretic.exe with extended limits. This is the bare bones "limit-removing" port.

Old Post 05-03-08 05:33 #
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alterworldruler
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http://files.filefront.com/MEDIVLTX...;/fileinfo.html

Here is permament host for texture pack, thank me :P anyway, i can improve my map but i'm soooo lazy and have too many projects already on the head like my UDOOM megawad

Old Post 05-03-08 06:14 #
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ler
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Is that the fixed one or the original?

Old Post 05-03-08 06:52 #
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magicsofa
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I just played e1m5 (kaiser), e1m7 (dreadopp), and e1m8 (tv)


e1m7 impressed me the most - they were all good, however kaiser's map is quite...um...extensive? I played for 40 minutes and still only have one key...there was also a bug where you can slip around the bars near the green key

the boss map was very odd...it was really cool and fun, lots of great balanced battles and a very well done layout - and then I got to the ironliches and it was cake. One was stuck in a hallway, the other roaming around town aimlessly. I did have to beat them with my power-tomed staff because I didn't have any ammo, but due to them having a terrible position it wasn't hard at all.


EDIT:

e2m1 was a psychedelic experience, to say the least. It had a lot of buggy sectors - one right at the beginning was a column hidden from automap that let projectiles but not the player through. This map reminded me of a 1994 doom PWAD with someone trying to improve the looks while retaining the set-up.

Lord Z also made a killer psychedelic map on e3m6...

Last edited by magicsofa on 05-03-08 at 07:26

Old Post 05-03-08 07:05 #
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alterworldruler
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ler said:
Is that the fixed one or the original?
Whoops, original, sorry, going to upload fixed one

EDIT: http://files.filefront.com/medivltx...;/fileinfo.html here is permament host of fixed version of the texture wad

Last edited by alterworldruler on 05-03-08 at 07:32

Old Post 05-03-08 07:26 #
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Lord_Z
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magicsofa said:
Lord Z also made a killer psychedelic map on e3m6...

Glad you enjoyed it :)
I hope my second map will be as good.

Thanks for the fixed texture wad Creaphis and thanks for hosting it alterworldruler.

Old Post 05-03-08 08:51 #
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Creaphis
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Here's another improved texture wad, with some corruption removed from the PNAMES lump. This corruption wasn't even detected by Slumped, but I fixed it in XWE. Surprisingly, this corruption seems to have had almost no effect, even on Heretic+, but it did cause a crash in one patch-loading condition so it's better to have it fixed. Here's the wad file that should be hosted and used in the meantime:

http://www.zshare.net/download/11451941f76674c6/
(Also, I zipped it with an edited text file, as per proper form.)

This hasn't fixed the rendering problems in Heretic+, though. I've been looking at Essel's first test map, and I've been temporarily ignoring all middle textures on double-sided lines that don't render correctly (as transparent textures carry their own set of potential problems), which leaves MOSSRCKB as the only other problem texture on that map. MOSSRCKB is a 64x64 texture with one patch that is used as an upper texture, and it simply doesn't render correctly. I've tried a number of things with no luck yet, but I have some ideas of what could be tried:

1) In the Heretic iwad (and in the other iwads, for that matter) all patches have offsets specified within their image data. For example, a 64x64 patch will likely have an offset of 32x and 59y. I don't know what function this serves, as it doesn't cause any noticeable effect on the offsets involved in texture construction in the TEXTURE1 lump, and it also doesn't affect texture alignment at all inside levels. But, considering that every patch in this texture wad has an offset of 0x 0y (ie. it's been left unspecified) this is a difference and thus a potential cause of the problem. I tried giving the MOSSRCKB patch offsets of 32 and 59... and it didn't change anything. I've made a few simple textures of my own in the past, though, and I've learned that changing offsets from 0 0 to something else can actually solve rendering issues - however, I did this to solve a problem I had with getting a plain black flat to render properly in ZDoom, and that's a completely different case.

It would help if I could know what those offsets are for - I don't want to try giving offsets to EVERY patch unless it seems like that could really take care of some issues.

2) It might be helpful in some cases to change texture heights. However, changing the 64x64 MOSSRCKB texture to a 64x128 texture with two patches didn't help anything.

3) The problem may be caused by the mapper's use of the texture within the level editor. Changing the offsets and unpegged tags in DoomBuilder changed the pattern of tutti-frutti corruption but didn't fix the image. But, it would be good to test using this texture in other situations - does it work fine if used as a middle texture on a 1-sided line? This is something I haven't tried yet.

4) Another feature in most iwads is that the list of patches is broken up into several sections. There will be a P_START or PP_START marker, followed by P1_START, a number of patches, and then P1_END and P2_START and so forth. I don't know what function this serves either, but there's a huge number of patches in this wad - maybe vanilla requires that the list of patches be split. (Or, maybe we simply have too many patches in the wad altogether.)

5) Maybe we can give up on compatibility with all limit-removing ports and just tell players to use more advanced ports where we know that the rendering works. I'm not sure I can accomplish anything else here.

Old Post 05-03-08 08:58 #
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esselfortium
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Vanilla Heretic most likely has the same issue as vanilla Doom, in that it can only tile textures properly if they're exactly 128 units tall. Also, Slumped can batch set offsets, but I'm about 99% positive that patch offsets have no actual effect on texture rendering. (Someone tell me I'm wrong if I am)

As long as all the textures are 128-tall, their width is a power of 2 (8, 16, 32, 64, 128, or 256), and there are no columns without a patch (this is what the transparent patch is for), there should be no problems with drawing them on 1-sided lines, or with drawing them on upper and lower textures.

Midtextures have to follow the same rules (though they don't have to be 128-tall, since midtextures don't vertically tile), but with the added rule that they can only include one patch. As such, the transparent patch is going to have to be removed from all of them and then the remaining single patch will have to be padded with transparency to allow it to be a power-of-two size (64x64 is fine since midtextures don't tile) without having any columns without a patch.

Again, I'm sorry for all these issues. I knew of them when I put together the wad, but I wasn't making it for this project.

Patch and flat start/end markers apparently have no effect at all and are completely ignored by the engine, they're just used for organizational purposes.

And KDIKDIZD.WAD has a whole lot more textures and flats than MEDIVLTX.WAD does, and has no problem running in DOOM2.EXE, so that's not the problem here. :P

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Last edited by esselfortium on 05-03-08 at 09:38

Old Post 05-03-08 09:28 #
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Vermil
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Well, I guess I'd better mention it before someone else does it (I was also working on the texture wad :p). I'm running through all completed maps and fixing ZDoom quirks in them. I have also made a couple of very tiny tweaks to a couple of them.

Old Post 05-03-08 09:56 #
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alterworldruler
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Sign me up for E2M2
I need to play E2 in heretic to get hold of it (It's full of OPEN CAVES but i may add some new ideas to the concept

Old Post 05-03-08 10:12 #
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Vermil
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http://darkocean.info/MEDIVLTX.WAD (right click, save as)

Here's another version of the texture wad (based off the last version Creaphis posted above) with a couple of fixes that Creaphis missed.

A couple of garbled flats have been fixed and the resource wad will now run with Legacy.

The main cause of these issues was having texture and flat lumps with the same names. Hence the FIREWALx series is now HFIRWALx and the flat GRNBLOKQ is now GRNFLATP. As far as I am aware, none of these graphics have been used in any of the completed maps. But I thought I should mention them anyway.

I also added a few additional texture and flat variations to the wad. For instance texture versions of the flats that Dreadopp used as textures in the original version of his map that, with his permission, I changed to make the wad compatible with all limit removing ports.

I'll add said textures back into Dreadopp's map during the course of my checking all the maps.

Last edited by Vermil on 05-03-08 at 12:26

Old Post 05-03-08 12:08 #
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Lorenzo
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Hi !
I made a map for this project, e4m1 (backup map) will it ever see the light?

L.

Old Post 05-03-08 16:13 #
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Artillery
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Lorenzo said:
Hi !
I made a map for this project, e4m1 (backup map) will it ever see the light?

L.



If I remember correctly, you were on Torn's list. Right now, the leader is ler. If you want your map to be included, post it up here, where we'll test it, or you can PM it to ler, if you want him to check it out all by himself. Basically, if it's up to quality standards, and compatible, then it's probable it will.

The problem is, we don't know about Torn and his list of maps. If you've got any useful information about these, we'd greatly appreciate it. It would be nice if more prople included in that list would post here, with finished maps they made for the project.

Last edited by Artillery on 05-03-08 at 16:37

Old Post 05-03-08 16:31 #
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ler
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I just got a PM with a nice suggestion regarding themes. At this point it'd be very hard to try and change maps completely when we've got like 8 or so completed, but we can maybe reorder the maps later to accommodate for themes. How many of you would be terribly bothered if during the final stages of construction the maps are reordered according to theme as well as difficulty?

Old Post 05-03-08 21:56 #
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printz
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Creaphis said:
Can maps in this project be on a higher difficulty curve?
IMO, Heretic's first 3 episodes have a better difficulty curve than Doom's first 3. In anything and everything, except weapons.

And I prefer to be able to play the damn game on Black Plague, thanx, not wade through Smite-Meister because there are too many point-blank traps, because of the thought-as lame monsters. Which aren't at all on Black Plague.

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Old Post 05-03-08 22:16 #
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Artillery
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ler said:
I just got a PM with a nice suggestion regarding themes. At this point it'd be very hard to try and change maps completely when we've got like 8 or so completed, but we can maybe reorder the maps later to accommodate for themes. How many of you would be terribly bothered if during the final stages of construction the maps are reordered according to theme as well as difficulty?


Technically, the order of the maps is the last thing I have on my mind. As far as my work goes, put it where you want, just as long as it's there.

It's not that which is the problem, but the whole idea of the themes, please share it with us. Personally, I'd rather prefer a liberal choice of themes with varied level, then a unification. It's boring when a whole episode has to stick to theme, and I know, I won't allow anyone to "adapt" my maps stylistically (especially remove some peculiarities about them) to "fit" in the episode.

Also, I still think we should know about those maps which Torn has. The worst thing to happen at this stage is a radical change of plans, although I did sense it coming, which is why I insisted Torn should be contacted to have the finished maps on his list available for testing.

My opinion is: there should be a QUALITY STANDARD. If someone gives away his map, he should clarify whether he allows others to add detail, and tweak with it. If I remember correctly, Torn's list included some sound names of mappers, but only a handful of finished works, without much thought put into quality check. Or that was my impression, I may be wrong. I've played Kaiser's map, amd I think it should stay. All the others I've played are from ler's list.

Anyway, I don't like this sense of confusion, to be honest. Right now, if I was a leader, I'd first make sure we get all those maps, and people who have applied for slots to get them finished, or else clarify that they're stepping out, and sort it all out. Once all levels on the list get done (your list, as well as those Torn has, out of which only Lorenzo posted here and informed us about his finished e4m1 on Torn's list), we can search for new mappers.

Lord_Z, magicsofa, dreadopp, ler, and I have promised to do another map. 2 maps each, plus some other contributions (from both lists), and we might just as well think about stretching it to episodes 4 and 5. As I said, I'd want my maps to end up in the project, regardless of the slot (IMHO, the least important thing altogether) but I wouldn't want anyone making any drastic changes on my maps.

Just my 2 cents.

Old Post 05-03-08 22:57 #
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ler
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It was basically just that there seems to be about 4-5 themes showing up, so you would order the episodes by having about 2 themes each episode, along with themeless ones. It's not super drastic, if you ask me, but it would require eventual reordering of the maps. I think it'd be better to wait and see what we have after we have 27 finished maps, on second thought.

Old Post 05-03-08 23:11 #
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