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kaiser_wilhelm
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Posts: 85
Registered: 02-07
Here is my halfway finished level, its very linear. PLease give me some ideas for later parts. I don't mind the first part being linear because its just an egyptian tomb.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/l4pvso
Old Post 02-07-09 21:41 #
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Vermil
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I thought the community chest maps did have some theme consistency; they still follow the general base to hell layout.

I also thought the community chest maps did follow a difficulty curve to some extent. You don't get Archviles and Cyber Demons roaming around the first maps and BFG's to fight them with like you did in the Heretic Chest maps before I made a few alterations to the types of bad guy on some of the chest's maps, which I think is being grossly over exaggerated here. I didn't actually change that many on most maps. Not to mention Ler states in the first post that all the maps are going tp be polished before a release.

What is the aim of the chest, is it literally going to be a bunch of single level pwads stuffed together to call it a megawad in name only, for the sake of being the second ever Heretic megawad (Hordes of Chaos being the first). Or is the chest going to be a proper megawad?

I request that Ler upload my redordered maps, so what I changed can actually be seen and properly judged.
Old Post 02-07-09 21:42 #
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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments


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Community chests follow a difficulty and thematic progression, sure. That's because a bunch of maps are ordered after the fact, unaltered. That is the strategy that should be used here. If a map doesn't fit the theme or difficulty, then move it, and don't nerf it.

Some maps could use some extensive work but you should still get the permission of the original author to change anything, or ask the author if he'd be willing to make changes. What you're doing is presumptuous and rude.

Vermil said:
What is the aim of the chest, is it literally going to be a bunch of single level pwads stuffed together to call it a megawad in name only, for the sake of being the second ever Heretic megawad (Hordes of Chaos being the first). Or is the chest going to be a proper megawad?


The first one. It's the norm to play community megawads as isolated maps, from pistol starts, and there's little reason to do this any differently. Also, if the Community Chest wads are "proper megawads," I don't see what makes this improper.
Old Post 02-07-09 22:14 #
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Torn
google is your master


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This is kinda the first megawad, I do not judge hordes of chaos as first megawad ever for heretic. Btw, if people forgot I started this up, not ler.

I will also try to finish my levels soon, I just haven't been in mood for a long time. But the project is soon complete

Edit: I didn't see hordes of chaos x. Oh well, HTC was kinda started as the first megawad for heretic. But hordes of chaos is for zdoom, right? Let's call HTC the first classic megawad then. :P
Old Post 02-07-09 22:21 #
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esselfortium
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Creaphis said:
Some maps could use some extensive work but you should still get the permission of the original author to change anything, or ask the author if he'd be willing to make changes. What you're doing is presumptuous and rude.

I have to disagree with this. By submitting the maps to a project, I think the consent was implied. Peoples' maps getting revised by other members in group projects is a pretty common occurrence from what I've seen, both in public and closed projects. As long as the changes can be verified as not making a map actually worse somehow, I don't see any problem with it. A community project that you can play all the way through without hitting any awful difficulty snags or extremely bad maps is a more successful endeavor, IMO, than a potentially subpar community project that rejected improvements to avoid the possibility of hurting someone's feelings.

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Old Post 02-07-09 22:35 #
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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments


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Alright. I guess what I'm considering is the scenario where a mapper makes an epic "showcase" fight only to have this trimmed out and its effect lost due to meddling. I agree that bad maps and difficulty snags shouldn't remain in a community project, and my thinking there is that it's up to the original mapper to fix his map or lose his slot. As there seems to be no threat of anyone's map getting kicked out, I guess it would make sense for some maps to be improved by other parties, but I'm skeptical that there's really a need for fight nerfing.
Old Post 02-07-09 23:07 #
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printz
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So it will be for three episodes then?

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Old Post 02-08-09 00:21 #
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Lord_Z
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I think I am going to start testing the maps again too as I know how to do it now :P Hopefully it will provide some more insight into what exactly needs doing which is hopefully not too much.
Old Post 02-08-09 19:33 #
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esselfortium
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Creaphis said:
Alright. I guess what I'm considering is the scenario where a mapper makes an epic "showcase" fight only to have this trimmed out and its effect lost due to meddling. I agree that bad maps and difficulty snags shouldn't remain in a community project, and my thinking there is that it's up to the original mapper to fix his map or lose his slot. As there seems to be no threat of anyone's map getting kicked out, I guess it would make sense for some maps to be improved by other parties, but I'm skeptical that there's really a need for fight nerfing.

Well, I do agree that mapslots should be switched around to improve the difficulty progression if needed, before attempting to modify the maps themselves.

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Old Post 02-08-09 20:17 #
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Vermil
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I have very barely modified the difficulty of about 10 maps of the 27 maps. 99.9% of my alterations in those 10 maps involved one to one switching out a couple of higher level foe types for equivalent matches of lower level foes. Those lower level foes are all in exactly the same spot's as the higher level foes they replaced. The only notable change I made was changing a trap to accomdate a few lower level foes instead of a couple of higher level monsters.

Now certainly, I would like to alter the ammo balance on the maps a bit so players don't finish maps with ton's left over. I've played all the maps in the HTC (before I made any of my imo currently negligible modifications) from wand starts on skill4 and I was finishing some with loads left over.

Creaphis said:
Alright. I guess what I'm considering is the scenario where a mapper makes an epic "showcase" fight only to have this trimmed out and its effect lost due to meddling.


And this is something I have no intention of doing.

Last edited by Vermil on 02-08-09 at 20:52
Old Post 02-08-09 20:34 #
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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments


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Vermil just sent me a PM. What he's specifically doing is changing fights to hold episode one to this standard:

"CONTAINS NO WEREDRAGONS, OPHIDIANS OR MAULOTAURS. CONTAINS NO PHOENIX ROD."

Which is something I don't agree with, but I won't argue for my position here until Vermil has had a chance to respond to my reply.
Old Post 02-08-09 21:31 #
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ler
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Posts: 335
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Well, here's my opinion: He took my E3M7 and put it somewhere else. Fine, sure whatever. Then he took out my maulotaur battle, intended to be a complement to the double lich head battle, and replaced it with ANOTHER double lich head battle. NO.

I personally felt that was absolutely wrong. Not to mention he took out all the weredragons from my two maps, making it a whole lot different. Vermil, you intend well, but as leader I'm just going to say no no absolutely not, and not just because of my maps. I'd imagine a lot of the other mappers feel the same, though I may be wrong.

Also Torn if there's any way I can make sure people still realize that HEY YOU'RE THE GUY WHO STARTED THIS THING I'd totally do it.
Old Post 02-09-09 00:04 #
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magicsofa
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Vermil, tight ammo doesn't make a map fun. It can add to the experience if A) it is well done and fair, and B) the player is good enough at conserving. Some people just want to blast away. Do you not enjoy playing Doom Episode 1 on UV?

Also, I don't see what necessitates removing monsters that didn't originally appear that early. We've all seen the damn monsters before, nobody is going to be surprised when they find the first weredragon on episode two...
Old Post 02-09-09 03:27 #
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Snarboo
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I don't have any problems with my map being moved around or retextured, but I'd appreciate it if the gameplay wasn't altered. I designed my map to be played a certain way.
Old Post 02-09-09 05:57 #
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CodenniumRed
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oops, lol. I meant "Ice Keep" lol.

As for altered maps, I don't mind mine being tweaked a little bit, I'd prefer a megawad-ish style of progression anyway. But for other maps with specific battles, it might be a problem.
Old Post 02-09-09 07:25 #
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Vermil
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Well, I didn't mean tight ammo in every map like making the player only exit every map with about 50 wand shots. I just meant tweaking the ammo balance at the end of some maps where you exit with extreme amounts of ammo.

Personally, I disagree that my changes to the badguys on Ler's map completely change it. The Maulotaur is about the one higher level foe in Heretic other than D'sparil himself that doesn't have an equivalent lower type. But in his map in particular, I don't think changing it for a couple of Iron Liches makes any difference to the way you play that part of the map.

I didn't "remove" the Weredragon's. I "replaced" them with lower level foe types. Also I don't think the replacement of one Weredragon in the middle of half dozen Undead Warrior's and a dozen Gargoyle, with another Undead Warrior ruin's everything. Now certainly, there are cases in the 10 maps I tweaked where I replaced a dozen or so higher level foes with lower level ones, but I think Ler's examples are negligible.

I can't put the maps up anywhere so the individual map author can decide for themselves (maybe you can Ler?).

Certainly, I have no problems with putting the higher level foes back, if that is what people wish, and setting up difficulty in a different way; looking at the maps existing difficulty and only if a map seems terribly out of place tweak the difficulty slightly, mainly using a "remove some Ophidians." instead of the mainly "replacing Ophidians with Undead Warriors," I have done.

Last edited by Vermil on 02-09-09 at 14:25
Old Post 02-09-09 12:44 #
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ler
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I think the whole thing stinks of a bad idea. Let's just not even do it.

Wasn't difficulty gauging the point of choosing map slots anyway?
Old Post 02-09-09 16:12 #
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Ismaele
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Hey, I don't like at all what I am reading about changing monsters and/or gameplay in other people's map! That wasn't intended at all. If you do it, I will have to ask you to remove my map from this project. I'll just give you my permission to revamp graphically some parts of my level... but after asking for my permission... and I want to view the new version! That's all.

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Old Post 02-09-09 21:14 #
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Dreadopp
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ler said:
I think the whole thing stinks of a bad idea. Let's just not even do it.

I think I am going to have to agree here.
Old Post 02-09-09 21:28 #
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40oz
And who knows, maybe I'm wrong. But that's extremely unlikely because I'm always right.


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It really doesnt matter about monster placement. Plutonia Experiment was an official release as a sequel to doom, and that had every single monster that was added to Doom 2 (with the exception of the hell knight and arachnatron) make a presence in the very first level. I'm pretty sure everyone who plays this wad has owned Heretic long enough to know what monsters it contains. The only thing that might bother me is to see those hard monsters on an earlier stage and see a map that felt restricted to weaker monsters later in the wad. But if there is a consistency in people believing that they shouldn't be restrained from anything, then we have a good community chest.
Old Post 02-09-09 21:35 #
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printz
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Levels shouldn't be postmodified unless of critical bugs, for this is an open community work, not a closed-group cohesive project such as TSoZD. Levels don't follow any of each other's plot, their only common thing (so far) is the texture set, meant to give it something unique, despite consisting of maps which could very well be separate.

Even more so, one should never plan a levelset, CP or not, to require playing in series, because in the end people will still just quickly warp to their favourite levels. And for this reason you should not care of any incoherency, especially with Heretic which likely has less variation than even Doom 1.

I often play CPs in series, like any megawad, and consider them rightful megawads too. The overall galloping difficulty level and rich colours make them better than monotonous one or two-man projects. I just use imagination to form a plot for each map.

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Old Post 02-09-09 22:00 #
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Vermil
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I do believe I was improving the project slightly, but I understand the objections as well and will cease.
Old Post 02-09-09 22:01 #
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40oz
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printz said:
TSoZD.


LINK
Old Post 02-09-09 22:09 #
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printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT


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Offtopic, but may confirm what I said.
I can't give you much link, except maybe to go there to see that's been wikified: http://zdoom.org/wiki/The_Shores_of_ZDoom
And there's a sizeable closed ZDoom forum group of people from around here and there centred on TSoZD. I can't link to it (with what knowledge I have) but I can go as far to say that the usernames labelled in fat blue letters in the ZDoom forum display are people working on TSoZD. Click on them, then go to the group, to see all its members.

What I'm saying is that that's an example of closed-group project.
Old Post 02-09-09 22:47 #
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ler
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If anything we already have a one up on many many doom map compilations because we have bright vibrant colors; we'll make our players feel strangely happy and content as they play our maps, thus giving them a pathological association with the wad and happiness. WE MINDFUCK AND CONQUER.

Also since we've solved this crisis I must crack the whip and say GET BACK TO WORK.

(not that I can talk since I still have an outstanding community chest map :()
Old Post 02-10-09 16:56 #
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Lorenzo
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I've noticed here:

http://ler.belsambar.net/htc/levelnames.txt

that my level is without a name.
The title is "Shadow of the Heretic".

Bye
Old Post 02-15-09 19:17 #
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CodenniumRed
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Yeah and my second level isn't even there! But aren't these being re-ordered anyway so the Chest can be released?
Old Post 02-16-09 21:49 #
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ler
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Actually it's laziness on my part. I'll get that up there right away.

Edit: I also uploaded some bug fixes that Vermil sent me ages ago. I put the fixes text he gave me in the htc folder as htcfixes.txt. Also, he gave me two e4m4s, so I made the second one e4m4-2 (unless it was supposed to be e4m2, as it said e4m42.wad in the rar).

Last edited by ler on 02-17-09 at 01:42
Old Post 02-17-09 01:25 #
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rf`
Dr. Nosign


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Ler, the current link for the texture wad, does it also include my textures?
Old Post 02-17-09 02:48 #
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Vermil
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Actually, there have been two versions of E4M4 on the site for a long time, named E4M4.wad and E4M42.wad.

Since I assumed they were both there for a reason, I bug fixed both of them (both versions had the same bug).

The resource wad on the site works with all the maps to my knowledge.

Last edited by Vermil on 02-17-09 at 11:00
Old Post 02-17-09 10:49 #
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