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ler
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Of course! Go ahead and pick another slot, I think there's still a couple of E3 maps open...
Old Post 05-08-08 06:56 #
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Kirby
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OK then! Count me in for E3M5!
Old Post 05-08-08 07:18 #
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Bruno Vergílio
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After some time out of the doom community it's good to get back and see that you didn't give up... I wish you all good luck, and be sure that I'll record some demos for it :D !!!
Old Post 05-08-08 17:22 #
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CodenniumRed
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You know what, some of the critters from the ZdooM mosnter resource pack would fit into this very well... the more medieval monsters, including Acolytes, Apprentices, Avatars, Bormereth, Cultists, Darkness Rifts, Death Knights, Disciples, FALLEN, GHOULS, Hell Apprentices, Hell Smith, Hells Guard, Nightmare, Thor, and Wraith. The fallen and Ghouls are key new critters too.
Old Post 05-09-08 08:31 #
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Artillery
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CodenniumRed said:
You know what, some of the critters from the ZdooM mosnter resource pack would fit into this very well... the more medieval monsters, including Acolytes, Apprentices, Avatars, Bormereth, Cultists, Darkness Rifts, Death Knights, Disciples, FALLEN, GHOULS, Hell Apprentices, Hell Smith, Hells Guard, Nightmare, Thor, and Wraith. The fallen and Ghouls are key new critters too.


This was built as a limit-removing community project, so I don't think we'll have this. The only possibility would be if someone would care to rework the WHOLE PROJECT, and release a separate zdoom version. Anyway, I doubt it would happen.

For now, we're having enough problems piecing it all together and making quality maps, so I don't think anyone would wish to bother with this stuff.
Old Post 05-09-08 10:54 #
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Lord_Z
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As much as i would love to use some new monsters, I have to agree. I think it's a bit too late to start doing it now.
Old Post 05-09-08 12:21 #
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Torn
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Well, the whole point of making this just limit-remove was that I wanted almost everyone would be able to play it on their favorite port (supporting heretec that is), except the vanilla heretic users, sorry. :)

Well, right now I am quite busy and I have no internet. I have a few exams I need to get through, that leaves away the time for the doom/heretic projects. Also I'd like to try out wow at some point soon, yes I know it can be bad. :P

I will have internet connection again in the middle of june, I hope this project is still going around that time. Keep this project, but please do not change the headline about it being limit-removed, as that would kick the project in it's butt. At least I fear that. Ler, you can control this project as it is until I will be able to get online. However I think we should focus on just 3 episodes, 5 episdoes is simply too much in my humble opinion.

But okay, we might be able to do it, but I still have my other big project, Doom Flashback. I'd like to release that this year at 10. december, if I am able to do that, it has been going for like over 5 years. That's all for now, see ya later. :)
Old Post 05-09-08 17:36 #
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myk
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Torn said:
except the vanilla heretic users, sorry. :)
You can apply limit removing with the original engine, because Andrey Budko hacked Heretic to raise limits like in Doom+. But if so it should be tested with it to make sure of compatibility.
Old Post 05-09-08 17:41 #
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jobro
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So no Zdoom heretic in hexen specific stuff then. Fine with me.
Old Post 05-09-08 20:44 #
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Creaphis
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Definitely no Zdoom features. Considering that there's no Heretic community megawad in existence I think one should be made that stays fairly true to the original game.

As far as vanilla compatibility goes, I think there's one more thing that needs to be worked out: Most of the texture wad issues will be no problem to fix (ie. we need to resize many 64x64 textures to 64x128 and we need to bring the transparent textures down to one patch each), but as vanilla Heretic can't read an animdefs lump, some new animating textures in the pack won't animate in game. There are three ways to resolve this:

1) Just avoid using the unsupported animated textures and flats. These are wllblod1 to wllblod3, wllslim1 to wllslim3, hfirwala to hfirwale (note: these don't currently work in any port because the texture names in animdefs don't match the texture names in texture1 anymore), and the flats fltblod1 to fltblod3 and flttblu1 to flttblu3. Maybe nobody has used these anyway, so removal would be little problem.

2) Use these textures, ignore the fact that they don't work in vanilla, and hope that most people will play in Zdoom.

3) Rig animated textures so that they work the same way as they do in AV.wad. This involves putting many animated patch sequences in one texture sequence, and the mapper controls which animation he wants to appear in game via offsets. This would only work for wall textures and not for flats, and would require more careful mapping.

Thoughts?
Old Post 05-09-08 21:15 #
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Snarboo
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I've been working on my map and I thought of something. There are a lot of little quirks that annoy me in Heretic. The biggest is key order. You always get the keys in the same order: yellow, green, blue. It's something that always bugged me.

But a lot of the Heretic experience is that consistency. Despite the fact that I can make the map in any way I want, it's hard to break from that tradition. I want my map to feel like Heretic, so I've been adding the keys in the same order they would appear in an official Heretic map.

Anyone else notice that or feel that way?
Old Post 05-09-08 21:26 #
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Vermil
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@Creaphis

Technically Hordes of Chaos X was a community megawad. It has 25 maps from various members of the community.

There was some talk in the old thread about including a Boom ANIMATED lump in the wad (after I offered a Doomsday equivalent lump to the ZDoom ANIMDEF lump).

Off the top of my head, Dreaddop's map was the only one to use the new animated textures/flat's, on the alter the Yellow Key sit's on.
Old Post 05-09-08 21:48 #
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jobro
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That I haven't noticed tbh. And frankly I cannot see how that is a quirk at all. Care to explain further on this?

Speaking about animated textures the above doesn't apply to the default textures no?
Old Post 05-09-08 21:50 #
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ler
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Personally I didn't even notice that happened. Maybe the Raven mappers were just creatures of habit :P.

Torn, I'll be keeping this going but I'm leaving the E4 and E5 sign up open since that still leaves possibilities. We've got most of the slots filled again, and any maps you have would probably fill up the full 27 maps. Now we just need all of those slots finished :P.

I've been testing all the maps I can in Heretic+, by the way, so compatibility is being tested when I can. I've got finals too, but luckily I'm not as pressured due to being in high school and thus not having very hard finals in the first place (or at least I think so, and that's all that matters).

And my E3M7 is creeping along very slowly. I've got one and half of 3 sections I wanted to do done though :P.
Old Post 05-09-08 21:50 #
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Snarboo
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jobro said:
That I haven't noticed tbh. And frankly I cannot see how that is a quirk at all. Care to explain further on this?
Quirk as in how the maps were designed. I'm not sure how many mappers worked on Heretic, but there are some things that are shared between maps, such as key order. Another is how secrets are hidden: usually they are given away by a wall that is a slightly different but similar texture, or the light level is different. This is very apparent in the first episode, but it still persists in later ones. Teleports and exits are generally the same, too, and always have the glowing particle effect above them.

Last edited by Snarboo on 05-09-08 at 22:21
Old Post 05-09-08 21:58 #
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jobro
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Ok now when you mention it I sure understand the quirk.

Seams like I made a slight mistake. I dunno, but is E2M2 still available? Because I noticed that I don't have the full 5 episode Heretic wad. So I was wondering if you don't mind me changing to E2M2 so I can rely on the textures I got and not mapping like a jerk with E1-E3 textures on an E4 map?
Old Post 05-09-08 22:08 #
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ler
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If you've got the official version you can get a patch to update it, like Ultimate Doom, I think.

I'm not sure, I've had the full wad for a while.
Old Post 05-09-08 22:09 #
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jobro
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Well I could if I got the official version. I bought Heretic back in 1999 with the complete 5 episodes, time changes and I lost the CD in a move. So I picked up a Heretic wad some place else.

Some eye candy for yall:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7880/screenshotheretic200805lr4.png
Old Post 05-09-08 22:13 #
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ler
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need moar bloom.

But really I think it might need a little more detail (and obviously monsters but I can see you're not in that stage of development yet).
Old Post 05-09-08 22:15 #
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Artillery
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ler said:

I'll be keeping this going but I'm leaving the E4 and E5 sign up open since that still leaves possibilities. We've got most of the slots filled again, and any maps you have would probably fill up the full 27 maps. Now we just need all of those slots finished :P.
[/B]


When I proposed opening of episodes 4 and 5, Torn's list of maps was exactly what I had in mind. Some of his mappers got back here. Sweet. Now, the episode 5 may never get claimed, so maybe we'll have only 4 episodes of finished work, for I see no reaon to force 45 maps, if there's a shortage of mappers.

However, 3 episodes will MOST CERTAINLY not be enough, unless some people's work is to be kicked out, and I don't think that would be fair. And let's bear in mind that it's likely that some new people will still come.

As for heretic megawad, well technically, there were some heretic episodes and even multi-episode projects, but a work of this caliber and quality was never released, so this will certainly be a first TRUE heretic megawad. :)
Old Post 05-09-08 22:25 #
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jobro
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I played it without monsters to get the chance to get a good screeny...
Old Post 05-09-08 22:49 #
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Snarboo
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Is it possible to make switches shootable in Heretic? I need to know so I can set up a secret properly.
Old Post 05-09-08 23:15 #
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ler
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Yes. At least I see it in Doom Builder's linedef specials.
Old Post 05-09-08 23:25 #
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Snarboo
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Hmm, I'm not seeing it in Slade. Would you mind listing the linedef numbers for shootable specials?

EDIT:
Wait, nevermind I see it. :p
Old Post 05-09-08 23:39 #
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ler
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24 is floor raise to lowest ceiling, 47 floor raise to next highest change texture, and 46 is door open stay. So not that many options. and only 46 is repeatable.
Old Post 05-09-08 23:42 #
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Snarboo
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Yeah, I figured that out when I noticed there were only a few linedef specials with the G prefix. Thanks. :)
Old Post 05-09-08 23:42 #
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Creaphis
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Vermil said:
@Creaphis
There was some talk in the old thread about including a Boom ANIMATED lump in the wad (after I offered a Doomsday equivalent lump to the ZDoom ANIMDEF lump).

Off the top of my head, Dreaddop's map was the only one to use the new animated textures/flat's, on the alter the Yellow Key sit's on.


However, this is a Heretic wad, so a Boom ANIMDEFS lump can't help us... can it?

If nobody in this project is using the new animated textures, that's fine, but I just think there should be a decision made on that issue before someone covers their level in wllslim.

Artillery said:
However, 3 episodes will MOST CERTAINLY not be enough, unless some people's work is to be kicked out, and I don't think that would be fair. And let's bear in mind that it's likely that some new people will still come.


I'm sorry, but you really can't be so confident. Remember: even if someone promises to make a map, they won't necessarily get around to it. It's an unfortunately fact of life.


Yeah, I noticed the default key order in Heretic maps ages ago. I can't decide on whether to deviate from it either - I kind of want to use only a blue key door and no other, just to fly in the face of tradition. Even more sinfully, I could use the key marking decorations for something other than marking a key door.

Last edited by Creaphis on 05-10-08 at 02:00
Old Post 05-10-08 01:54 #
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ler
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We should NOT use those textures. I can't really see it being beneficial to have something that is not compatible with much besides ZDoom ports.
Old Post 05-10-08 01:57 #
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Creaphis
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ler said:
We should NOT use those textures. I can't really see it being beneficial to have something that is not compatible with much besides ZDoom ports.


But don't forget the AV.wad method. It's a pain but it would work.

Though I guess none of us are really interested in using the new fire animation and the blood and slime falls, so it would really just make it harder for mappers to use the existing water and lava falls. Alright! I'll consider those textures removed.
Old Post 05-10-08 02:03 #
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Snarboo
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I'm pretty close to finishing my map after a marathon mapping session today. All I need to do is finish off the final area and then add the actual gameplay and monsters. I'll post screenies when I can.
Old Post 05-10-08 04:47 #
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