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Death-Destiny
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OK, so I've not been inspired last week (hence why I was not posting updates for DP.) It was like I was in a funk or something. Any doom maps I played didn't seem fun and any maps I made seemed bad. =( I made the beginning of this map during that time to try to get my inspiration back. Anyway, I got out of my funk and finished the map up and couldn't believe I hated it. =O Not sure what was wrong with me.

Anyway, this map is very difficult. If you've played any of my maps, you know the gameplay style by now. Since I make such hard maps, I put thought into the difficulty, so there are skill levels if you need them. I included a demo of a UVmax run of my map to help you get ideas of what you can do in trouble spots of the map if you're having a tough time with UV. Alternatively, you could simply watch it to admire the aesthetics since I think the map is pretty good-looking. =) The demo was recorded with Zdoom V2.2 and the map requires Boom. The map is titled "Grime" for some reason. =/

Some of you might enjoy this. I did, but then I was the one who said that my favorite maps are ones with lots of Cybs, arch-viles, and revenants, and I think I'm in the minority. =P

Here, take it: http://files.filefront.com/Grimezip...;/fileinfo.html

Comment if you want...
Old Post 05-18-08 07:38 #
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Mik57
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pretty difficult, but fun. At least for however long I could play it before it froze.(when I pressed the first switch). Nice architecture, even though Ive never liked hell/slime themed maps.
Old Post 05-18-08 19:07 #
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stickguy5000
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I liked the layout but the gameplay was too much for me.I don't care for maps that have a crap load of enemies in it. There is too much going on and I end up quitting the first time I die because I get bored. But yeh nice layout.
Old Post 05-18-08 19:11 #
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Death-Destiny
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Mik57 said:
pretty difficult, but fun. At least for however long I could play it before it froze.(when I pressed the first switch).


That's... very interesting. Could you tell me what port your using? I tested this in the most recent versions of Zdoom, PRBoom, and Eternity and could not duplicate this error. =( The first switch is simply an "S1 - Floor lower to nearest floor" and I wouldn't imagine that to do anything crash-worthy. Is there anything else you can tell me about this error you had that would be useful?
Old Post 05-18-08 21:38 #
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Mik57
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Alright, ive re-tested it and it works now. Pretty challenging (lotsa groundfights) I guess my comp just crapped out then.
Old Post 05-18-08 23:58 #
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gggmork
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Excellent, I love your maps. Creative gameplay (r launcher vs plasma, then the opposite choice appears later etc) and nice visual touches (invisible sector on top for hanging moss).

You're really good at this game; appears like you could beat this 5 times in a row without dying once or something. Its fun to try and beat your times but you could pwn me if you wanted. My player looks like he has a limp, heh, since no mouse means I never turn & strafe simultaneously. But if you want to see, this was my zdoom 2.2.0 strategy/demo (17:10 or so, not as difficult as your route):

http://www.sendspace.com/file/7adz89

I record better demos when I turn off game music. To do hard demos I often do a practice run first with about 7 intermediate saves, then practice each save spot to make sure I choose a fast safe strategy. Found 1 exploit (which is also possible on one of your previous maps) which is to rocket enemies that are still in the ground. On the real run the first 2 of 7 sections took a handful of tries (despite all that practice), but then bam I luckily did the rest on the first real try once I got that far.

Also if you want DD, see if you can record a zdoom demo beating map 30 for this generated set, heh heh:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/vh0ppv

(zipped it but its still a large file..) You might not like it though because you said you don't like limited ammo once. I beat that first difficult section only once after lots of tries using a cheap strategy though, then died.
Old Post 05-19-08 08:26 #
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Death-Destiny
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gggmork said:

Also if you want DD, see if you can record a zdoom demo beating map 30 for this generated set, heh heh:


O.o...

Wow, now that's got to be one of the hardest maps I've ever played. It makes my map look easy. I didn't know Oblige made maps that difficult.

Anyway, the only way I could figure out to win that map consistantly was to be a pacifist for a little while to coax some enemies out of position and into killing each other w/o awakening all 100 enemies in the starting rooms at once. Once the enemies were out of position, I could get the shotgun and clear out the start rooms before the yellow door with enough space to move around. From there, I could get the berserk pack and KO a bunch of the demons without running out of ammo. I wouldn't call the demo efficient (it took 20:30 =(, but I miscounted the number of rockets available, which would allow for a faster, more reliable run. It got easy after the 3 arch-viles in the red door with tons of health, and I finished the end of the map off much more quickly.

Here it is if you want to see it, recorded w/ Zdoom V2.2: http://files.filefront.com/LSLADD1l...;/fileinfo.html

I wonder. Just speculating, it might be a good idea to start a thread where people can post their very hard maps, maybe even get a compilation going. Not like a community project or anything serious, Just a location for like-minded people to find and present such maps seeing as how they're fairly rare since a lot of people map for recognition and would not make things that appeal to a minority. I might suggest this again when I post another such map since I would find it useful and there might be some others who would as well. It's just a neat thought; I'm rambling though... =P

Last edited by Death-Destiny on 05-21-08 at 02:28
Old Post 05-21-08 02:21 #
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Butts
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this map you made is quite a challenge, it appeals to my taste. i really like the theme you picked out, its quite unusual but it is good. you make excellent use of stock resources as well. the map also had a certain atmosphere to it that i liked a lot. anyways, i think the compilation of really hard maps is a good idea, i can always improve my mapping skills.
Old Post 05-21-08 06:44 #
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gggmork
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Great demo! I wanted to see that level beat after failing so much :). Still I'll try a bit more and without beginning pacifism if possible.

I think a great system that would help like-minded players find additional like-minded maps would be for each doomworld member to have their own editable list of their favorite 30 or so wads. Then you could search the lists for a wad you particularly like (maybe search results ordered by position on list like if 2 people have hell revealed as #1 they'll tend to like eachother's suggestions and each have more obscure titles the other doesn't know about yet). Sorta amazon.com recommendation style. (and also each user has a seperate editable list of their own maps/where to download).

Aside from the widely known ones, slightly more obscure difficult maps I can think of are:

eaxt:
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=12252

the dying end:
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?id=15016

chord3 (and other chords):
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=10860

(searching forum for 'hardest' etc has some ok results, mostly the maps that are already known. I found some really old maps that way that aren't that great by today's standards.)
Old Post 05-21-08 07:49 #
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dutch devil
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stickguy5000 said:
There is too much going on and I end up quitting the first time I die because I get bored.

Heh you get bored from dying *damn I died this is boring*

You know what is boring, playing maps that are so damn easy that you allready know from the beginning that you can beat it on your first try, thats boring.
Old Post 05-21-08 13:59 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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A very good map you made here. Great fights, awesome gameplay and cool themes.
Now we're craving for more, and for Dark Plutonia of course ;)
Old Post 05-21-08 22:35 #
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Hellbent
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come on, it's too hard.
Old Post 05-22-08 02:01 #
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Eric Vaughn
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The red + green style is an interesting experiment but it just doesn't work for me.

The map became very predictable after a while. Anytime I walk into a new area, flick a switch or pick up a key, a billion tough monsters teleport in (surprise! well, not really).

I couldn't really recommend this map to anyone, even a really good player, because he would still die frequently and have to quicksave again and again before he figures out what is going on.
Old Post 05-22-08 02:49 #
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Death-Destiny
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Hellbent said:
come on, it's too hard.

Uh, yeah, for you it is. Have you been spacing out during this thread's conversation? I'm not forcing you to play this map... I made it specifically for people who like a big challenge. Go find something closer to your skill level. =/

Last edited by Death-Destiny on 05-22-08 at 03:53
Old Post 05-22-08 03:00 #
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Butts
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this map is not too hard, hehe.
Old Post 05-22-08 03:39 #
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skepticist
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I really like it. It's hard for me, but i in love with the challenges =) Layout and detail are great aswell; theme remind me scythe2 ep5 maps , with green & red colours dominate the pallete. All maps that you've made so far are pure pleasure to play, your talent is to make hard'n'fun maps while keeping it different from famous hr. So... thank you. Keep it up!
Old Post 05-22-08 12:45 #
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RjY
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I guess you read the part of the Deus Vult 2 text file that goes off on a rant about how hell shouldn't be red and green like a christmas tree, and tried to prove it wrong..? :)

The soulsphere secret is easy to reach by strafejumping, easy enough that I thought it was the real way to reach it, and was quite surprised by the existence of the hidden teleporter.

May I suggest using an engine with sensible demo support to record in future? More people will enjoy your demos this way.

Finally, are you going to upload this and Crimson Horizon into /idgames any time soon? These ad-ridden download services are crimes against nature.
Old Post 05-22-08 13:58 #
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Trilinear
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Very nice wad. Definitely challenging, but fair. Very enjoyable.
Old Post 05-22-08 14:10 #
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Hellbent
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Death-Destiny said:

Uh, yeah, for you it is. Have you been spacing out during this thread's conversation? I'm not forcing you to play this map... I made it specifically for people who like a big challenge. Go find something closer to your skill level. =/


Alright, I'll use the save feature. I was hoping to be able to play it on Skill 2 without saving, but no luck.... err.. no skill.

I would really appreciate it if someone could send me a demo of them playing it. chesterules@yahoo.com i have zdoom 1.22 and zdoom 2.2.0 (r748)

Thanks.

This map proves that I'm maneuverabilitily challenged.

Last edited by Hellbent on 05-22-08 at 17:02
Old Post 05-22-08 16:24 #
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Anima Zero
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Very nice map here. Extremely tough on UV (I died way too often in the 2nd room until I watched the demos), plenty of enemies to kill, just how I like it.

And DD, I like maps with archviles, revenants, and cyberdemons quite a bit myself :). Makes the level more tense and tricky that way.

One funny thing I noticed...when you choose whether you want more plasma ammo or rockets before jumping into the 2nd room, if you're precise enough, you can grab one stash, but not go far enough onto the teleporter for it to whisk you away. Then you can just grab the other stash of items and have a nice supply of both.

This is hard to do though considering the enemies you have to plow through beforehand and how precise you must be.

Did end up recording a demo for the level on UV using PRBoom Plus 2.4.8.1. Time stinks (19:13), but I haven't recorded anything for a good while :P. That and this was a first attempt, first exit style run.

Not going to bother uploading it since I know I can do better, but if anyone feels like seeing it, let me know and I'll go make a post about it in the Misc. Demos thread :P.
Old Post 05-22-08 18:54 #
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Death-Destiny
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Wow. Thanks for all the positive comments everyone. =D I'm genuinely surprised to see that there are this many people who like maps this difficult. I was expecting that other than people like gggmork who love speedrunning hard maps that most of you would be like "Damn. Your demon hordes just pwned me... your map sux." =(
I'm glad I'm not the only one who enjoys this kind of thing. =D

RjY said:
The soulsphere secret is easy to reach by strafejumping, easy enough that I thought it was the real way to reach it, and was quite surprised by the existence of the hidden teleporter.

Finally, are you going to upload this and Crimson Horizon into /idgames any time soon? These ad-ridden download services are crimes against nature.


There are three ways to get the secret soulsphere: strafejumping, acrh-vile jumping in Zdoom, and the secret teleport. If you use the teleport, you fight another archie, but it will show up near the end of the map if you don't fight it here. I put the teleport in so if you get out of the 1st Cyb fight with over 100% health and don't want another soulsphere right then, it can still be accessed. =)

As far as the archive goes, I'm not a big fan and here's why:
-Reason 1: I don't like the anonymous posting system. For all I know, someone who doesn't like me will come along and give it a 0/5 for no other reason. Also, the anonymous nature means people can post any thoughtless BS they want. I don't want a permanent list of BS to my name.
-Reason 2: My maps are too difficult. The archive is a service to the general Doom audience. I'm going to get a bunch of 2/5s from average skilled players for "Good architecture, but this is way too hard to be fun." Therefore, it is purposeless to upload something like this. I might as well just post it here where only those interested in exceptionally hard maps will have much incentive to comment.
-Reason 3: I don't map for recognition anyway, so this service has little meaning to me. I'm not aiming to get a pat on the back from strangers or a Cacoward. I love my own maps, so I have enough self-confidence to not need other people's approval. I map my style for fun and to share that fun with people with similar interests to me. Your positive comments in threads like this are all the reward I require for mapping.

Sorry. =( I know I have an almost unreasonably bad opinion of the archive, but I've gained a negative opinion of such services. That's one reason I record demos of my own work since it gives the zip a little more value since it's such a chore to download from anywhere these days.

@Hellbent and anyone else interested: If you want to see some demos, the Grime.zip file had a Zdoom V2.2 demo of what would probably be the hardest possible method that would still be successful. Additionally, gggmork recorded this Zdoom V2.2 demo which demonstrates methods for luring the enemies out of position and causing them to infight to make life easier: http://www.sendspace.com/file/7adz89

I talk to much... I'm done now. =P
Old Post 05-22-08 19:43 #
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Deeforce
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Not bad your map, but you should implement difficulty settings!
Old Post 05-22-08 19:57 #
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dutch devil
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Maybe an tip for your next map you want people to play is adding some screens, it might help getting more people to play your map and get more feedback.

I haven't tested your map yet but knowing your mapping style and the type of gameplay you like, I suspect that its an pretty damn hard map.
Old Post 05-22-08 19:58 #
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gggmork
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One con is the archive makes maps available permanently, while it disappears from a file hosting site forever in a week.

'get both RL and plasma trick'
heh (I'd like to see that demo, its fun seeing others playing styles/strategies)

'archie appears later'
That's where he went..

'difficulty settings'
has them
Old Post 05-22-08 20:33 #
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Anima Zero
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http://www.sendspace.com/file/yexbtj

There's the link for my demo. Recorded with PRBoom Plus 2.4.8.1. Have fun watching me stumble around at some spots :P.
Old Post 05-22-08 20:49 #
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Death-Destiny
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Deeforce said:
Not bad your map, but you should implement difficulty settings!

Uh, I did? This proves my theory that no one actually uses difficulty settings and that I just implement them out of force of habit... JK =P

Anyway, it's cool seeing other people's demos for a single map seeing as how they're often so different. It's fun seeing all the different solutions to a tough map. Back to my previous train of thought, if we can get a "super hard map" thread going, then eveyone can post their maps, and then everyone who wants to play such tough maps can post their strategy demos right below that. I think I'd be cool to have an integrated map presentation and demo running system going. Next time I come up with a cool map, I'm probably going to see were we can get with this idea... =)

BTW, thanks Anima Zero and gggmonk for sharing your demos with us, they were a lot of fun to watch. =D
Old Post 05-22-08 22:26 #
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The Lag
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nice map. i've enjoyed getting my ass beat a few times so far. have yet to beat it, but i get further each time. watching your demo, one small fight that i liked was the twin archvile fight on that rock that provides cover for one archie, but leaves you exposed to the other one. nice little thing there.
the theme is the tiniest bit scattered (hell mixed with vegetation/red-green) but, overall, the map looks very nice.
highly anticipating DP.
if you do not care about what most think of your mapping, then why not upload to the archive for more people to enjoy it? since there are people who don't come to doomworld, for whatever reason, but still might enjoy your maps.
screw the 2/5's
Old Post 05-22-08 22:28 #
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Patrick Pineda
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I dont mix reds and greens. you shouldnt either

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Old Post 05-22-08 23:06 #
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Butts
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because you dont do something to your map you are telling him what he shouldnt do? just because you dont like his choices doesnt mean other people dont like it. i think its original and it looks good.
Old Post 05-23-08 00:04 #
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Hellbent
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Butts said:
because you dont do something to your map you are telling him what he shouldnt do? just because you dont like his choices doesnt mean other people dont like it. i think its original and it looks good.


It's not original, but it looks okay. I've seen it before... I believe it was in Alien Vendetta.

What makes me frustrated with this map is the combination of mancubus and pillars and other snaggable structures. Other than that, the gameplay in the first part of the map is good.

Can you put a rocket launcher and a few rockets on top of the wall behind the archviles? Because I go up there often enough.

Last edited by Hellbent on 05-23-08 at 00:51
Old Post 05-23-08 00:25 #
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