Doomworld Forums - Heretic SP - Curse of D'sparil [RELEASED! 2010 01 12]

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kristus
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Creaphis said:
What's your preferred port for playing this, Kristus?

I did most of the testing in Zdoom. But I like to play in HereticP a lot too. Also I am looking forward to EE getting proper support so I can give it a whirl in that. And for Coop I prefer Skulltag since it got Survival.

Creaphis said:
Suit yourself. I like winning.

Heh

Gez said:
PROTIP: You can browse through your inventory while the game is paused.

I suppose that could be a valid strategy, but if you're in such a pickle that you need it, I bet you'd get slaughtered as you regain your posture after unpausing.

EDIT:
@Creaphis: Watched the demo. It was fun. :) You did better than me in the first part of the map. Though you still had some close calls. :)
Had you played the later parts of the map before making the demo?

Last edited by kristus on 01-13-10 at 09:24

01-13-10 08:03 #

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Vermil
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Gez said:
PROTIP: You can browse through your inventory while the game is paused.

Sadly Deng team removed the ability to manipulate the auto map and inventory in Dday 1.9 Beta6 while the game is paused, citing it a "bug that ID and Raven never noticed" :(

01-13-10 09:53 #

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kristus
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I'd say that one of those things that are up in the air whether it's a bug or not. Unless the source tells a different story.

01-13-10 10:10 #

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printz
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Creaphis said:

Suit yourself. I like winning.

Well I can win with that handicap on me, if I train myself to act fast. Sure deathmatch might have different rules on using hotkeys or not. But I'm trying to keep some of the vanilla challenges on, though I admit I'm currently NOT using autoaim in GZDoom, so the crossbow is weaker at medium-long ranges, and I have to actually aim the imps

Creaphis said:
(and I assume that you can't pause during demo recording anyway).

In Doom you definitely can. I don't know about Heretic's Doom1.2-like behaviour, though, except that unless you run a hack patch, you won't be able to access the intermission, so much for the statistics.

Vermil said:
Sadly Deng team removed the ability to manipulate the auto map and inventory in Dday 1.9 Beta6 while the game is paused, citing it a "bug that ID and Raven never noticed" :(

Ew. There are entire games (such as those by BioWare) whose strategy relies on you pausing the game and directing orders.

01-13-10 12:14 #

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kristus
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As far as I am concerned, people are free to play as they please. Personally, I don't care much for pausing the game to go through my pockets. That brings me out of the action, and I don't like that. :)

01-13-10 12:28 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

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kristus said:
Had you played the later parts of the map before making the demo?

No sir, thus the close calls and the preponderously slow progress.

Once again I have to give you kudos for bringing more elements of strategy into Heretic. The obvious difference between my first* attempt and the successful one is my adoption of a rarely-used-but-highly-effective combination of tome and dragon claw. I've never known how powerful that combo is for crowd control, because I've never had to know.

I take it this is the intended strategy in that area? Or do you expect everyone to hit their respective "panic buttons" and teleport back to the start? :)

printz said:
Well I can win with that handicap on me, if I train myself to act fast. Sure deathmatch might have different rules on using hotkeys or not. But I'm trying to keep some of the vanilla challenges on, though I admit I'm currently NOT using autoaim in GZDoom, so the crossbow is weaker at medium-long ranges, and I have to actually aim the imps

My counter to this was going to be "vanilla Heretic has hotkeys for the items too - you just can't rebind them" but now I can only find confirmation that the tome of power is bound to backspace. Maybe then I am cheating a little bit. But, when the goal is to survive maps, I'd rather use a more flexible input scheme than vanilla allows than exploit its ability to scroll through the inventory while paused. The latter option goes against my principles.

If anyone's curious, the binds I've set so far are:

Quartz flask: f - so I always have health at the touch of a button
Tome of power: t - another good item to have ready access to
Chaos device: backspace - because backspace is a logical place to slam your hand on when you screw up

I also have "next item" and "previous item" bound to my scroll wheel, and "use item" bound to right-click, and I usually "arm" my inventory by leaving it set on eggs or time bombs. This essentially lets me use my inventory as an alt-fire during tougher battles.

*First attempt in this demo, not first attempt overall

Last edited by Creaphis on 01-13-10 at 22:06

01-13-10 13:34 #

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kristus
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The way Heretic handled quick switching was really by holding shift and pounding enter to switch selected item without bringing up the item menu.

Anyway, I don't see any problem with binding direct buttons to artifacts. Heretic didn't have Mlook either, and I am using that.

There will be differences between ports and the original. Like in Heretic, the malotaur can't fire it's land based flames while it's in any kind of liquid, but in Zdoom. It can. And in Heretic, flying monsters are far more likely to get caught up in eachother than in most ports. So you get some benefits there.

01-13-10 13:46 #

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Gez
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I was playing the door game* in the city of lost children map (I approve of that reference by the way), when this funny glitch happened:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5769/cursedoorbug.th.png

* Activating a door repeatedly so it closes before being fully opened, preventing the tall monsters from passing through, but yet giving them an opening in which they'll want to shoot. Basically, a cheap and cowardly way of inciting infighting. No, I'm not ashamed.

Anyway, the maps so far (yeah, I'm still on map 2) are very beautiful and the fights are hard but possible with a bit of tactic and method. The inventory items are actually useful for a change.

01-13-10 13:57 #

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Archvile78
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Thats definitely a must play for me. Glad to see it finally released. :)

01-13-10 14:00 #

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kristus
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Gez said:
when this funny glitch happened:
Glitch

How the hell did that happen? O_o
This needs investigation.

EDIT: I really can't imagine how that could happen. The sector that lowered to the floor there isn't tagged. So whatever made it move down like that, should have done the same with almost every sector in the map.

The only sliver of an idea I could think of is that somehow the engine misunderstood which side of the linedef the door was for a moment and then closed the wrong one. :s
What port was this with? Can you make it happen again?

01-13-10 14:13 #

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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

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kristus said:
What port was this with? Can you make it happen again?

It was GZDoom r713. The image is a save game (ZDoom saves are actually embedded in a png file), so you can download it and rename it to have the .zds extension and GZDoom should be able to load it (even a more recent version, given the serializer hasn't been touched in a while).

And yes, I am able to replicate it. In fact, apparently one of the linedefs in the pseudoslope above triggers it. Here's a save from just before. Put yourself not right behind the door, but a bit further back so you're just in front of the upper wall, about in the center, and hit activate.

Looking in DB2, linedef 4536 is the culprit. It has special 28:DR Door Red Open Wait Close.

01-13-10 14:46 #

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kristus
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Oh my, indeed it do. Now that's one hell of a find. I didn't even spot it when I was looking for it. :p
Thanks I'll deal with this instantly.

01-13-10 14:51 #

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entryway
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I've recorded E3M1 with gzdoom 1.4.1
http://prboom-plus.sf.net/curse31_118_gz1401.zip

01-13-10 15:29 #

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kristus
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Cool, nice touch with the chaos device at the green key. :)

01-13-10 15:47 #

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myk
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Creaphis said:
customizability.

Here is Vince's post on customizing Heretic+. Binding key_invleft, key_invright, and key_useartifact conveniently should be essential. I don't see how having one key per artifact, which is rather cluttered counting how many artifacts there are, is really that much better than quickly browsing the inventory, but to each his own. Using Heretic+ has the advantages of making enduring demos that are technically comparable to Heretic-N's, however.

Given it works with Heretic+, I wonder whether Curse will attract some of the Heretic-N runners. That would be interesting...

01-13-10 15:54 #

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kristus
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That's awesome, thanks Myk. I've had to suffer the Enter key for quite a while now. :p

About the instant binds. It's probably more common for Deathmatchers to bind up their entire keyboard. Especially in games like Quake3. But it's not cluttered at all. You got all these buttons that you don't use anyway. And if you can just tap a button to get more health or drop a bomb instead of mucking about with an inventory. Then you can use the artifacts a lot more smoothely, in combination with other things.

01-13-10 16:12 #

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Fenriswolf
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Ah... great it is finally done :)
As many here, I played the first 2 maps and enjoyed them. Very good design, nice areas and challenging fights. Even if I'm not a fan of big outdoor locations and hordes of enemys, I quite liked the maps. Will play on tomorrow. Good work!

01-13-10 20:42 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

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Gez said:
linedef 4536 is the culprit

I was about to post this. I swear, these were my exact words.

myk said:
Here is Vince's post on customizing Heretic+. Binding key_invleft, key_invright, and key_useartifact conveniently should be essential. I don't see how having one key per artifact, which is rather cluttered counting how many artifacts there are, is really that much better than quickly browsing the inventory, but to each his own. Using Heretic+ has the advantages of making enduring demos that are technically comparable to Heretic-N's, however.

Given it works with Heretic+, I wonder whether Curse will attract some of the Heretic-N runners. That would be interesting...

I agree that it's a tad unnecessary to bind absolutely every artifact to its own key, but having just one or two of them bound is already extremely helpful. If I have "use quartz flask" bound to a key, and have the morph ovum in my inventory selected, for example, then in a difficult firefight I can simultaneously heal myself with one item and fight back with another. Even if one trains himself to quickly switch from item to item, the second that it takes to do so will be the difference between life and death.

That said, if I ever decide to record "serious" demos for this I may decide to use Hereticp and begrudgingly tolerate its weaknesses.

01-13-10 22:24 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

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My FDA for e3m4. Don't feel obligated to watch it.

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20...a-e3m4-crea.zip

I think I'll keep going through the rest of the wad this way.

By the way, Kristus, when I normal-exited this level in ZDoom I was shown the ending text for Heretic's episode three. Maybe you can do something in MAPINFO to prevent that.

01-14-10 00:38 #

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Fiend
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Now that I've played a bit...

Level 4 is made of win.

01-14-10 00:55 #

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kristus
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Creaphis: I've not watched the demo yet, but you probably played the wrong E3M4 then. :p

There are two versions of the map. Zdoom, GZdoom, Skulltag, Vavoom and EE get to play onm E3M4P. But if you do a simple Warp, you get taken to the old E3M4.

I don't know how to prevent this. To do it right you have to either warp in the console using "map e3m4p" or the command line (with Zdoom, can't say for the others)
zdoom.exe -file curse.wad +map e3m4p

Anyway, I'll see what I can do about having the mapinfo not show the end text at the end of that map. (since I can't prevent that people get taken to that map anyway.)

@Fiend: Glad you like it. I had lots of fun making it, which is probably why it became so darn large. :p

*is off to watch Creaphis demo.

01-14-10 12:05 #

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Gez
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kristus said:
Anyway, I'll see what I can do about having the mapinfo not show the end text at the end of that map. (since I can't prevent that people get taken to that map anyway.)

Just having it declared in MAPINFO with a next E3M5 should suffice.

01-14-10 12:31 #

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kristus
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Yeah, I figured that it was something like that. :)

@Creaphis: I played the first of the demos, and after a while it desynchs. :(
EDIT: the other demo seem to have desynced at the exact same place. The moment where you get hurt by the Weredragons, the game seem to go nuts and you die shortly after.
It's interesting, since I don't recall having problems like this when we tested it and Zdoom was used for demos. Maybe it's the new version?

Maybe it's something I've done to muck up... can you check the demo on your end and see if it still desync?

Last edited by kristus on 01-14-10 at 13:00

01-14-10 12:33 #

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Gez
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There are three monsters that elude me on E3M2. I've cleaned every room, maxed my items and secrets, but I only get 498/501.

I finally cheated to see where they were, in case they had failed a teleport or something, but no. They're gargoyles 1067 to 1069 in sector 1383. I don't know why the two other gargoyles there saw me but not these ones.

Edit: Actually, they don't seem to see me because I'm hidden from them by the floor, the vertical angle is too steep. If they're a bit closer to the window, I think they'd see me. I think the other two saw me when I got a bit higher up by moving in the steps of sectors 1873 and 1874, but then it's the horizontal angle as I'm hidden from these three by the wall. Reedit: Nah, I had to fly quite up for these three to wake up. Much higher than these steps can lead. Nearly all the way to the impossible-to-enter room in the building opposite theirs, in fact. Don't know how the other two saw me.

Last edited by Gez on 01-14-10 at 13:53

01-14-10 13:46 #

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kristus
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Strange. I've not had any trouble making them see me. I did with a few once, but I removed them to fix that. Anyway, I've raised the floor inside those rooms to 24 so they should see you much more easily now.

EDIT: About the desyncing demo, I had Khorus try it, and for him it ran fine. :s

EDIT2: After redownloading the wad and Zdoom too, I managed to get it to work. I dunno what was different. But when I just downloaded the WAD (the rar file) it didn't work. I tried with the zip and reinstalling Zdoom and that did it. I'm not sure if it was something with Zdoom, or if the difference between rar and zip (de)compression simply made a difference in the wad. But it's working now anyway.

EDIT3: Finished watching the demo now. :) It was pretty interesting to watch as Creaphis figured out what to do. You could basically see what he was thinking. :)

Last edited by kristus on 01-14-10 at 16:27

01-14-10 13:54 #

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Creaphis
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kristus said:
Creaphis: I've not watched the demo yet, but you probably played the wrong E3M4 then. :p

Oh jeez you're right. I used -warp instead of +map.

01-14-10 17:11 #

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kristus
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Well, would be nice if it was possible to set it up so you could use that map with -warp. Since 99% of everyone won't know that.

01-14-10 17:33 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

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Indeed, I was just thinking about that. I'd probably just make two wad files. One wad would contain the full episode, and would have the full e3m4 simply marked as "e3m4" in the wad. The second wad could be labeled as a fix for Hereticp and contain only the cut-down e3m4. Users of vanilla ports are usually the more technically-able, and could probably deal with typing -file curse.wad cursefix.wad, while users of other ports wouldn't have to take any special precautions.

01-14-10 17:48 #

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kristus
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Well, you could. But the worst that can happen is really that people end up playing the version made for HereticP. Which is mostly the same map, only rearranged a bit (and a bit less detail) to fit inside the blockmap limit.
... I'll consider it.

01-14-10 18:09 #

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Gez
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Creaphis said:
Indeed, I was just thinking about that. I'd probably just make two wad files. One wad would contain the full episode, and would have the full e3m4 simply marked as "e3m4" in the wad. The second wad could be labeled as a fix for Hereticp and contain only the cut-down e3m4. Users of vanilla ports are usually the more technically-able, and could probably deal with typing -file curse.wad cursefix.wad, while users of other ports wouldn't have to take any special precautions.

If the two files are zipped together, then many ZDoom-users would get the nerfed map. (Unless the main wad has a name that comes after in the alphabetical order. Instead of curse.wad and cursefix.wad, maybe curse.wad and cursargh.wad.)

In other news, I've seen two pillars with bad texture alignment in E3M3. Given how well the textures are applied everywhere else, I thought you might want to fix them.
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3604/screenshotheretic201001.th.png http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3604/screenshotheretic201001.th.png

01-14-10 18:14 #

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Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > WADs & Mods > Heretic SP - Curse of D'sparil [RELEASED! 2010 01 12]

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