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Catoptromancy said:
MORE

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gggmork said:
Found the error on 7. Hit some sort of limit of too much map space used apparently (at first I thought it might be sectors that were too tall but I guess that doesn't matter for this map at least). If you highlight the entire map and scale 50% it should work (reduces map space). But another way to keep it at 100% is to move the bottom single sided line up until its 8 pixels away from the line above. Similarly move the top and right lines inward too. Now the entire map still takes up too much space because the dummy sectors are far away. So you can move them really close mashed up against the bottom (in a horizontal row so they're flatter). I don't know much doom technical stuff but that worked for me anyway (stopped producing prboom errors).

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Reaper978 said:
It reminds me a lot of the architecture described in Lovecraft's Call of Cthulhu. That is, alien, surreal, impossible structures.

It would definitely not be a waste of time to go back and refine these maps to perfection - you would have a real treasure.

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btw, "Macabre" is misspelled "Macarbe" on the title screen.

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kaplanator said:
Wow. Just... wow.
I've seen some big levels, but map07 is colossal! Unless you're using scaled-down textures, the outer walls alone must be 1500 units high!... It's a rare talent, being able to make areas that big look good in Doom.

Just out of interest, how many levels are you planning to make for this set? Personally, given their size and the insanely violent gameplay, I'm not sure if I could stomach more than about 10 or 15.

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Solarn said:
Holy crap! May I test this WAD? I'd love to go through these levels for the architecture alone.

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Insane_Gazebo said...
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6052/sundermap07map.jpg

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Solarn said:
Just completed the first level, Python, on UV. I loved it all the way through. The fights weren't unfair, even for someone who isn't used to slaughtermaps. I died a lot, of course, but with some trial and error I managed to complete the level. The only thing you might want to fix is that I ran out of ammo during the final fight and had to leave two archviles and the monsters they resurrected alive. Nothing big, just maybe a box of shells somewhere in the main building that's only accessible after pulling the switch in the smaller building. Other than that, nothing needs any tweaking in that map in my opinion.

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Insane_Gazebo said:


Did you get all the shells in the smaller building? There's 80 shells there, and 40 on the front steps, plus the 30+ rockets as well. Or did you get trapped inside, and then run out?

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Solarn said:
Okay, some feedback on the other maps.

The Burrow was just as fun as Python, with no ammo issues this time. Maybe I'm just getting better at conserving it. No changes needed. This was actually the first time that I had fun fighting a Cyberdemon. I usually run for my life when I see them as I'm not very good at dodging.

I'm currently playing Grinder and I'm confident that I'll be able to complete it, but it's a very steep rise in difficulty from the first two levels. It's absolutely packed with monsters and unlike Python and The Burrow, where they teleport in or come out of monster closets when I'm ready, they're all there at the start, meaning that I don't really have time to rest and look for health or ammo. I utilized infighting a lot more than in the previous levels. Also, some of the passages are too narrow for the amount of monsters I need to fight in them. You should probably lower the number of monsters in the map or distribute them less evenly, with more and more appearing as the player progresses. There's absolutely no need for that horde of imps, Knights and Barons to be present right at the start.

Pale Monument is one of my favourite in the bunch, architecture-wise, as it's simply breathtaking, but nuts.wad with amazing architecture is still nuts.wad. The amount of monsters in this one is ridiculous. The first two levels were insanely hard but fair and the third was unfair but fun. This is just plain unfair. I IDDQD'd through it after dying in the first area a billion times without any progress. I'm sure that I'd be able to play through it without cheats after a few days of practice, but it still wouldn't be fun. Please cut the number of monsters at least in half.

The Cage is absolutely amazing and actually a breath of fresh air after the last two levels. There's still an insane amount of monsters, but they never swarmed me like they did in the previous two levels, with no escape route. I had a ton of fun playing it.

I actually couldn't find my way out of the first room of The Dreaming Garden and prboom+ terminated with some message I don't remember, so I can't give any opinions on it yet. Maybe a little less Knights right in the first room would be better.

I haven't played the last two levels yet, so I can't say anything about them.

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Insane_Gazebo said:


Don't worry about Grinder for the most part - I'm not very happy with it. I'm not sure it's a keeper. (Wait until you get to the last room :P Even gggmork had trouble figuring out how to get past it.)

As I said in the PM, Pale Monument isn't finished for that exact reason. I mean, it can be finished, and was in fact actually harder at one point than the version you played initially. (Seriously!)
But mostly, I don't feel it's the amount of monsters which is the problem - just mostly their placing, and how you're forced to fight them.

However, there is a strategy to get past the first room which is the hardest part, which I'll be tweaking.
You're supposed to start by using the Cyberdemon to the right to create infighting, dodge past him, grab the Soulsphere, wait a moment, then clear a path behind one of the main pillars to grab some ammo and cover. Then repeat with the other pillar.
You then need to watch for the little arches in the first room - they trigger arch viles back at the start which one needs to deal with. (I think I'll delay that part - get them to come in later.)

Though, there is one part I won't be changing, and that's the caco-demon room. The whole point to that, is that there *is* too many to fight. That's why:
a) The BFG Room opens back at the start.
b) You get a teleporter back across the map.

Still, if you have any ideas how to use the rooms that are there to create some interesting fights, go ahead.
Regardless though, the monster placement needs some work. :)

As for The Cage, I'm actually surprised you enjoyed it. I felt it was worse than Pale Monument in that regard. Interesting. (gggmork kept falling off the edges, getting stuck and dying.)

As for The Garden, I guess I better move that switch. I would have thought an arrow on the mini-map might give it away, but so far the only player to find it without trouble was gggmork. (Seriously open up your map in the first room and zoom in, hehe.)

Anyway, thanks for the feedback so far Solarn :)

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spoiler - highlight to read:

To beat that last room in Grinder, is tricky. Very tricky.
Basically, you need to run for the invul. at the back of the room first, and rocket your way to the second one. Wait until the first is about to wear off, then grab the second. Then, and this is the part that will make or break you - get close to the teleporter in the room. Let as many of those buggers get as close to you as you can. Then, hopefully, when your invul wear's off, you can jump in, and hopefully make your way to the megasphere. Now, if everything's gone right, the cyberdemon's have killed enough for you to now have some room to dodge/move, so you should be able to finish off the cybie's.

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Solarn said:
Sorry, I've been slacking off with the testing. In my defense, I was away for three weeks, only coming home for the weekends and I wanted to rest.

A small update nonetheless: Grinder is still both extremely frustrating and extremely fun. I have no idea how to kill the monsters in the room where there were originally a bunch of imps and new monsters start warping in after I get up to the ledge. I just run and hope I don't get stuck on anything. A lucky archvile jump during this put me right in front of the last room, bypassing the duel with a cyber and a vile in the small room completely. You might want to fix that. I'm currently trying to figure out how to survive the last room. I've already got a plan, but I keep getting stuck at the worst possible moments.

You know, I can't help thinking that a good slaughtermap is in fact a well-disguised puzzle map. The player is put in one deadly situation after the other where simply charging in weapons blazing won't help and he must figure out the way to survive it. I see this in all of the maps you labeled "finished" in your last post, Gazebo, and I love it.

On an unrelated note, either the exit room in the version of Map08 (Metal Descendants) I have is bugged or I'm missing something.

Also, would you believe that I'm already thinking of making a tribute WAD to Sunder? It's that awesome.

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Phml said:
Awesome feedback.

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